The hallucinatory thoughts of the dying mind
72 comments
·February 10, 2025dr_dshiv
jvanderbot
Thank you for sharing this. We should all be so lucky.
rufugee
Agreed. Thank you. My day was made better by reading this.
rpaddock
About eight hours before my father died he was having a conversation with his unseen mother, who died when he was 14.
I asked him "Who are you talking to?" and got a rather rude response, not like him, "My mother" in a tone you give a five year old "go away kid you are bothering me".
The International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) is worth checking out if you have interest. I've never had a NDE, however I've spent a lot of time in their library in Durham North Carolina.
hibikir
We don't even need to be all that close to death for this, just suffer sufficient brain damage. I have a family member that had enough mini strokes that, whenever they have something like an urinary infection, they disassociate from reality and start talking to dead people, and they understand reality as if they were children. It's how we detect infections, as the hallucinations come in pretty early. A course of antibiotics, and they are their normal elderly selves, remembering little of the previous week
ultrarunner
My understanding is that this is common with UTIs, and isn't necessarily predicated on having previously had strokes or brain damage.
pipes
Well this is a holy shit moment for me. My grand mother was having really strange hallucinations, like explaining how she was talking to people on TV and the neighbours came round and joined in too. I had never heard about the infection thing before. It was really upsetting my mum and no health care professional ever suggested it might be infections. This was ten years ago and she's dead now, but I wish I'd known then.
It sounds very similar to your experience, they'd just randomly come and disappear after a while.
devilbunny
> no health care professional ever suggested it might be infections
Acutely altered mental status (without specific findings suggestive of a stroke) is, first and foremost, assumed to be a metabolic issue. I've been a practicing doctor for twenty years and it wasn't a new thought at the time. I don't know why nobody suggested it to you. It's been basic understanding for, well, ages.
FirmwareBurner
>About eight hours before my father died he was having a conversation with his unseen mother, who died when he was 14.
Anecdotally, my grandad did the same thing a day before he died. Except he was talking to his best friend who's been dead a long time.
null
tasty_freeze
Even in the best of cases, our perceptions and interpretations of those perceptions are often dramatically flawed. Add on top of that neural atrophy, loss of oxygen, accumulation of senescent cells, poor clearance of waste products ... and what comes out is often going to be gibberish, as the remaining working parts of the mind attempts to construct a coherent narrative from the broken fragments of sensory input and failing memories.
I got interested in consciousness 35 years ago or so when I read Oliver Sacks' "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat". Although the various people depicted in the stories had some physical deficit due to a trauma of some kind, it vividly demonstrated how we rationalize our way through the world more than we reason our way through it. Our conscious mind is much more of a facade than we typically imagine.
When people say, "Well, LLMs are just generating token N+1 from the previous N tokens, they really aren't thinking", I counter with this: we have been having this discussion -- are you at all aware of the stream of words coming out of your mouth, or are you hearing them the same time that I am?
Yes, sometimes we have deliberate thought where we rehearse different lines of reasoning before uttering something, but 98% of the time we are spewing just like LLMs do. And when we do engage in deliberate thought, each of those trial sentences again just appears without consideration; we are simply post-hoc picking the one that feels best.
Lammy
> Add on top of that neural atrophy, loss of oxygen, accumulation of senescent cells, poor clearance of waste products
I think the enjoyable thing about recreational drugs is the way they alter the normally-imperceptible boundaries between body/mind/Self. It provides an opportunity to understand what each of those things really are and what each contributes to my sense of being. I don't see these examples as all too different even if they are failure modes :)
sys32768
My mom passed recently. She battled Alzheimer's for 15 years, then passed five days after breaking her hip, even though she was singing and goofing around the day of the break. She was only 77.
A month prior to this, she had begun to sometimes stay in her bed often half the day, lying awake looking up at the ceiling with the most joyous look of peace in her eyes, as if seeing something or someone very special, often whispering as if in dialogue. This went on for hours sometimes.
I was incredibly moved at the time, but there were otherwise no indicators she was near death, so I filed it away as some new development in the progression of her disease.
I now take great comfort knowing this is not uncommon among people who are soon to die, especially since she was unable to communicate the day she died.
inglor_cz
My great-grandma talked to several children that she miscarried when young.
every
My wife and I experienced this when my father died. We visited him hours before his death. He looked up at my wife, smiled and said "Mother, you came!" For the next while she sat beside him, rubbed his brow and engaged in small talk as his mother. When he fell asleep we left. He died during the night...
Boogie_Man
Simply out of curiosity, does your wife bear even a slight resemblance to your grandmother when she was younger?
rglover
Semi-related: not delirium, but if you haven't come across it, check out the "Everywhere at the end of time" series of albums. The music is written to track the timeline of dementia progressing [1].
raincom
During final days before my grand mother's death, she was able to recall her childhood memories, asking her sons to bring her brother. Before that, she had some kind of memory loss. Anyway, here, we need some sort of neurological explanation: Childhood memories stay in the lower part of the brain, as I read it somewhere (probably Oliver Sacks'); the neurological basis of many memory loss is on top layers of brain, that's why sometimes people recall vividly of their childhood memories, even playing piano despite with dementia.
BSOhealth
I don’t want to trivialize the positive aspects this can have on someone who otherwise might have a sad or challenging death, and to that extent perhaps it’s just an evolved mechanism to make us accept death more gracefully.
But if you’ve ever stayed awake for many days or had other hallucinogenic experiences, you’ll know how powerfully thoughts can manifest. And how deep our memory actually goes. Clearly it’s inappropriate to vividly see your memories during waking life, but as you transition to death those barriers are less necessary as the body diverts increasingly scarce resources to surviving just a few moments longer.
wutwutwat
Please describe what makes one's death a "sad death"
MomsAVoxell
A sudden or unexpected departure, under some circumstances that highlight the grief of passing, such as in a car accident on the way home from a wedding, or having just given birth, or some such circumstances.
I think I can imagine there being ‘non-sad’ deaths, though - such as in the case of dying close to 100 years old, surrounded by ones loved ones, family, friends, with time to say goodbye. So, basically any circumstance which does not allow for the ideal departure, could be classed as a ‘sad death’ ..
null
temp0826
Any death of a child. Astronomical loss of potential vs someone who has lived a long life.
strogonoff
Some cultures weigh the death of a child vs. the death of an old person in a way that makes the latter a much more severe loss, given the unique wisdom accumulated over years. I believe it is the opposite in developed countries today due to lower birth rate and the tendency to preserve inordinate amounts of information arguably making the wisdom of an old person seem mostly useless.
formerphotoj
I've not lost a child and I don't "intend" to, so for me there's the vast investment in bringing them in, raising them up, and to lose both the past and future at the "wrong time"...astronomically heartbreaking. Never used to cry during movies when a child is lost, now I do every time.
phantompeace
What's the word you call your younger self when you think you've got it figured out? Foolish seems too gentle a word. Before having my own, I would wonder why everyone spoke of losing a child as a pain beyond all others. I even had the audacity to think they were being dramatic - after all, they'd only known their child for such a short time. After having my own, I find myself breaking my own heart with the thought of loss almost like my spirit is trying to build calluses against a blow I pray never comes
BSOhealth
Of course, I’d be happy to! That would be something in contrast to all the fortunate, welcomed, gleeful, and celebrated deaths we hear about frequently in Western news and experience in our own personal lives.
Instances where people are not ready to go, sorrowful, regretful, spiteful, guilty, etc.
jawns
> "Do not contradict, explain away, belittle or argue about what the person claims to have seen or heard," reads a short text that a hospice provides about the dying process. "Just because you cannot see or hear it does not mean it is not real to your loved one. Affirm his or her experience. They are normal and common."
Not all hospice or elder-care providers recommend affirming hallucinations.
Here's a quote from a nursing home guide that explores the ethical considerations of this practice:
> Lying to someone with dementia, often termed “therapeutic lying,” poses a nuanced ethical dilemma. While entering a person’s altered reality can indeed reduce their immediate distress, it’s important to acknowledge that lying is still lying.
> Over time, this practice may lead to confusion, especially in moments of clarity, and strain the trust and relationship between the patient and caregiver.
> This complexity has led caregivers and professionals to explore alternative communication strategies that honor the truth while providing comfort and reducing agitation. Two such approaches are reflection and redirection. Reflection involves acknowledging the person’s feelings and statements without directly affirming the distorted reality or lying. Redirection gently shifts the conversation or activity towards something positive and engaging without directly contradicting the person’s beliefs.
1659447091
The first example says it's "...about the dying process"
The second example is for "...someone with dementia"
jjmarr
While this nursing home guide is interesting, it's important to acknowledge that it sounds like ChatGPT.
incanus77
My dad had a fall and suffered a pretty bad brain injury a few years ago. He has since fully recovered aside from more frequent short-term memory loss, but during his multi-week hospital stay, many aspects of his personality, maturity, and abilities changed, almost to the point of extreme dementia.
More relevant to this story, one incident I remember clearly was that he started talking about taking care of "him" and changing his diaper. Finally we got around to the fact that he was talking about his first nephew, who was born when my dad was quite young in the 1950s. My dad helped my aunt and grandma take care of him and it was his first exposure to caring for a child. All of those people are 30+ years out of existence now, so it was quite a flashback.
jvanderbot
I wish there was a place I could share the experience of my father's death. This doesn't seem to be it, though I appreciate everyone's story.
Is there such a place?
JosephK
Share it here. I want to hear it.
jvanderbot
It's not a very happy story.
My father passed away in 2023. Our last discussion was in the parking lot of his apartment, discussing whether or not the milk in my car might spoil if I leave it there while I come up to visit for a bit. Later, he died walking his dog with my mom, though the ER "resuscitated" him.
What I feel the worst about is the time between his heart attack and death, 4 days later.
In that time the doctors reanimated him, like a zombie. They were able to elicit physical reactions by yelling his name, and poking him, I guess to make my mother feel better that he might still be there. Eventually, I noticed blood in his urine bag, ad the nurse looked at me weird when I noticed, and that night he died from a massive aneurysm.
I missed his passing because my phone was on silent mode so I missed everyone's calls. I was watching the finale of Succession, and pressed "volume up" until it was max, but some time in the last few years Android decided that action shouldn't increase ringer volume.
I am sad to have not been there. He now has a tree in my back yard, and I think about him often. He was a gregarious, brave, unabashed person who found the most joy in being a playground monitor.. and I'm lucky to have known him. But there's never enough time or enough reasons to make time, and no closure to be had in his death.
tsoukase
Delirium, so called the organic psychosis, is the common end result of every diffuse brain dysfunction, so it be chemical toxicity, inflammation, trauma or most commonly senility-dementia. It's caused because of a chemical disturbance of the brain-'soup'. Any psychotic symptom can be manifested, not only visual hallucinations. Antipsychotic therapy has massively varied results
cf100clunk
The title of this discussion thread reminded me of this:
''I have a tumour that's growing in my brain stem and it's pressing on collections of neurons that make me feel elated. I'm lucky. Half an inch over and maybe I'd be depressed about it all. But actually I feel fine. And when I die, when it kills me, those same neurons are gonna fail. And in failing, they're gonna put on my own private light show and I'm gonna fade into the light until I'm all gone and everything's just whiteness and silence.''
-- Robert, a psychologist facing his end days in UK TV drama Afterlife, series 2, episode 7, 2006.I copied that passage down years ago because I hope some day if I need help remaining stoic it will be there if I am aware. If not, they can find it in my collected notes.
It goes well with the late film reviewer Roger Ebert's piece, ''I do not fear death'':
w10-1
That's true, and very helpful for family members to understand. They're also often in a suggestible state.
But it's not just full-on delirium; as others have noted, in the elderly even infections can trigger wishful escapades (even as the elderly fail to mount much fever).
And the question remains: how to help the person (delirious or not), particularly when drugs are not effective (and you don't want to drug them into a stupor). It seems unhelpful to agitate them by arguing with them, even if the reality principle is normally the saner option. Do you "go with it"?
My take is that it does help to respond so they know you're there, and really helps to rub feet or back, because body sensation is grounding. But mostly notice how driven you feel to help, or to get involved with managing other helpers, and be very patient with that. Telling the family it's enough for them to be there is often the best thing.
nabla9
It's common with alcoholics when they start having withdrawal.
Easy suggestibility is common. You hold a blank paper in front of someone in delirium and ask them to read what it says and they start reading like there was something there.
My father, at one point, imagined himself on a Greek island. “Ouzo!” He’d offer from his hospital bed.
He was an avid fisherman and his last words were, distinctly, “Big fish.”
Yet, he was mostly unconscious for his last day. I spent time talking with him as he slept, massaging his hands and feet. Later we had a party for him and played music. Around 10 at night he began to die (the breathing changes). At the very end he opened his eyes, looked at my mother, sister and me, and passed.
It was a beautiful death.