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The origins of 60-Hz as a power frequency

freeqaz

If we could magically pick a frequency and voltage for electrical systems to use (without sunk costs), what would it be?

What's the most efficient for modern grids and electronics?

Would it be a higher frequency (1000hz)?

I know higher voltage systems are more dangerous but make it easier to transmit more power (toaster ovens in the EU are better because of 240v). I'm curious if we would pick a different voltage too and just have better/safer outlets.

DrBenCarson

The higher the voltage the less power lost to resistance and the less money spent on copper

Short protection at the breaker for every circuit would probably be necessary at that voltage

xanderlewis

Why are toasters better at 240V? Can’t you just pull more current if you’re only at 120V (or whatever it is in the US) and get the same power?

I guess there’s some internal resistance or something, but…

nwallin

Correct. You can get the same power with half the voltage by doubling the current.

The trouble is the wires. A given wire gauge is limited in its ability to conduct current, not power. So if you double to the current, you'll need to have roughly twice as much copper in your walls, in your fuse panel, in your appliance, etc.

Additionally, losses due to heat are proportional to the current. If you double the current and halve the voltage, you'll lose twice as much power by heading the wires. For just a house, this isn't a lot, but it's not zero.

This is why US households still have 240V available. If you have a large appliance that requires a lot of power, like an oven, water heater, dryer, L2 EV charger, etc, you really want to use more voltage and less current. Otherwise the wires start getting ridiculous.

This is not to say that higher voltage is just necessarily better. Most of the EU and the UK in particular has plugs/outlets which are substantially more robust and difficult to accidentally connect the line voltage to a human. Lots of people talk about how much safer, for instance, UK plugs/outlets are than US plugs. If you look at the numbers though, the UK has more total deaths per year to electrocution than the US, despite the fact the US is substantially more populous. This isn't because of the plugs or the outlets, US plugs really are bad and UK plugs really are good. But overall, the US has less deaths because we have lower voltage; it's not as easy to kill someone with 120V as 240V.

So there's a tradeoff. There is no best one size fits all solution.

andruby

I don’t know is toaster are close to max power draw, but kettles certainly are.

Most places with 240V regularly have 16A sockets, allowing a maximum draw of 3840W of power. That’s the limit. Cheap fast kettles will often draw 3000W and boil 250ml of water at room tempature in 30s.

Kettles in the US are often limited to 15A and thus max 1800W (usually 1500W) and take twice as long (60s)

Technology Connections has a great video on this: https://youtu.be/_yMMTVVJI4c

bbatha

More current needs thicker wires. The average US outlet is wired for 120v15amp. 20 amp circuits are somewhat common, though 20amp receptacles are not. Certainly not enough for commodity appliances to rely on.

Going to more than 20amp requires a multiphase circuit which are much more expensive and the plugs are unwieldy and not designed to be plugged and unplugged frequently.

wongarsu

Houses are wired for 16A per circuit on both sides of the pond, with high-power appliances typically pulling around 10A to avoid tripping the fuse when something else is turned on at the same time. It's just a nice point where wires are easy to handle, plugs are compact, and everything is relatively cheap.

The US could have toasters and hair dryers that work as well as European ones if everything was wired for 32A, but you only do that for porch heaters or electric vehicle chargers.

tgsovlerkhgsel

You need the same thickness of wire for 10A regardless of which voltage you have. So with 230V, your 10A wire will let you draw 2.3 kW while someone with 120V and 15A wire would only get 1.8 kW and pay more for the wiring.

generallee5686

Having more current running through a wire means thicker wires. Higher voltage means less current to achieve the same power, so thinner wires for the same power. The tradeoff for higher voltage is it's more dangerous (higher chance of arcing etc).

ajuc

You need thicker wires for the same power. Which is why Americans live in constant fear of power extension cords, and people in EU just daisy-chain them with abandon.

mypgovroom

You have a 240v toaster?

stuaxo

Living in an a country with 240v mains, yep.

xanderlewis

Well, closer to 230.

UltraSane

The skin effect causes AC current density J in a conductor decreases exponentially from its value at the surface J_S according to the depth d from the surface. The depth decreases as the square root of frequency. This means that the effective power a wire can carry decreases with increasing AC frequency.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect#Formula

IncreasePosts

I don't care what the frequency is, I just want my LEDs to not flicker!

lnsru

Get better ones. I installed expensive LED lamps at home and they’re fine. The guys in the office picked the cheapest ones and I don’t want to turn these ugly things on.

Edit: Paulmann Velora are the expensive lamps at home.

sxp

Normal LED lightbulbs shouldn't flicker on standard 60Hz circuits. Do you have a dimmer switch or smart switch in the circuit? I've noticed these cause flickering that's visible on camera or out of the side of my eyes.

SSLy

that means that either the breaker is faulty, or the power stabilizator in the lamp itself is junk.

xanderlewis

What about if they flickered at 10^-15Hz?

Ericson2314

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak%27s_25_Hz_traction_powe... predates standardized 60 Hz, and still hasn't been converted (!!)

_trampeltier

Switzerland trains still use 16,7 Hz (16 2/3Hz)

Ericson2314

Yes indeed, but the German-Swiss-Austrian 16.7 Hz system is many orders of magnitude bigger than the Southend Electrification! The path dependency is much more understandable in that case.

Aloha

I know Southern California Edison had 50hz power, I always used to find old clocks and radios as a kid with a conversion sticker.

I've always kept an eye out for good papers about the effort to convert, but they're hard to find.

ethbr1

If only we could tag thought threads for submissions. Funny to see this coming out of the Baltic disconnect comment section!

cjohnst

When f is 60Hz, it makes for some nice round numbers, and easier for mental calculations.

ω=2πf

At 60Hz, ω is 376.99... very near to the integer 377.

Also, Z₀, impedance of free space is not far off at 376.73... Ω

pkulak

I always assumed it's because 60 is a highly composite number (superior, in fact!). It's kinda the best number if you're ever going to need to divide. 50 is kinda garbage in that regard. :/

1-6

Duodecimal Society members are happy.

alex_young

60 Hz sure makes it easy to keep clocks on time.

null

[deleted]

theamk

As far as clocks are concerned, 60 Hz or 50 Hz are very similar, just make sure the number of teeth on gears match the frequency.

ThisNameIsTaken

Not sure it's precise enough though. In 2018, many clocks in Europe were off because the frequency on the net had drifted due to (as I understood it) the network being out of sync across various countries. Some here might actually understand the details of this.

wongarsu

The frequency drifts up and down whenever demand doesn't exactly match supply. Higher demand slows the frequency down, higher supply speeds it up. This is actually the main way power companies know if supply and demand match, and if power stations have to ramp up or down.

The frequency changes are pretty small in normal operation, but on a clock that uses the frequency to keep time they accumulate. They only work reliably because power companies know about them and occasionally deliberately run a bit over or under capacity to make the average match again.

hatsunearu

1/60th of a second isn't a common unit of time though

toast0

It's convenient to count 60 pulses to make a seconds pulse, then 60 of those to make a minute pulse, then 60 of those to make an hour pulse. Then 60 of those to make 2 and a half days :P

null

[deleted]

nom

think again

UltraSane

Fun fact: Japan uses BOTH 60Hz and 50Hz for mains electricity due to historical generator purchases. This means the Japanese electric grid is split into two regions that cannot easily share electricity.

_trampeltier

The US alone has 3 grids (East, West and Texas). With the same frequency but still not connected.

In Switzerland trains use 16.7Hz but they are connected with large frequency inverters. Before it was with large motors / generators. Now its just static with electronic.

trothamel

The same frequency, but not connected via AC. There are multiple DC and Variable Frequency Transformer ties between the various interconnections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_power_transmiss...

cf100clunk

Exactly, DC is used for those links that would otherwise be out of synchronization. In Canada one of the DC links goes from the North American grid on the British Columbia Lower Mainland in Delta via a single underwater cable over to Vancouver Island. The water is the other conductor, and also keeps the cable cool.

Aloha

We have more than three interconnections that are not in synchronous connection to each other.

They can share power and are somewhat connected with HVDC interconnections however.

fyrn_

This is covered in some detail in this paper? They even discuss the two engineers who made the purchase and who manufactured the generators..

antithesis-nl

(1997), which I wondered about due to the "Many people continue to be affected by the decisions on frequency standards made so very long ago" phrasing and the intro-bit about the need for adapters in the paper itself.

Because these days, voltage and especially frequency are pretty much irrelevant for mains-power AC, and "ignorant" will be more accurate than "affected" when it comes to "many people"...

bluGill

They don't know it but they likely have a motor someplace in their house that runs at the speed it does because of frequency. They are ignorant but it affects them.

theamk

It is less and less likely... motor-based clocks are a thing of the past; hand appliances (like mixers and blenders) use either DC or universal motors to allow speed control. Even refrigerators feature "variable speed motors" nowadays, which means they are frequency-independent.

I think fans will likely be the last devices which care about frequency.. but new ones are often 12V/24V-based, with a little step-down modules.

satiric

What about dryer motors? I mean, I don't much care what rpm the dryer runs at, but it should change speed with the grid frequency right?

quickthrowman

Most commercial AC fan and pump motors are already powered by variable frequency drives, and a lot of newer residential appliances have EC motors to allow for speed control.

I’m seeing more and more EC motors in commercial applications, for things like 2-3 HP fam motors and pumps.

voxadam

(1997)