Decision to dump water from Tulare County lakes altered after confusing locals
88 comments
·February 1, 2025timewizard
dmckeon
People in the US who work with large volumes of fresh water use acre-feet and cfs (cubic feet per second) almost exclusively. If an article refers to gallons or comparisons like swimming pools instead, consider it popular journalism rather than engineering. Science can use metric, if preferred.
runarberg
acre foot is one of the funnier American units out there. It is defined as a foot × a chain (66 feet) × a furlong (660 feet). So you get this weird rectangular cuboid with very small height and a very long length.
m³ is already a pretty hard to visualize unit (unless you are used to visualize volume) but acre feet is just about impossible.
kadoban
As a big proponent of the metric system, acre feet are pretty reasonable. An acre is a decent sized plot of land for a house in the ~dense country, you can easily picture it. Flood that to a foot and you have an acre foot.
A single m^3 is fairly easy to visualize, but once you get to higher amounts it's pretty meaningless.
runarberg
I think you have to be pretty used to visualize volume before it becomes easy. I think having the unit based on a cube still helps though, especially since you can pick a different sized base cube based on the scale (mm³, cm³, deciliter, liter, m³, km³, etc.), having the base unit be this extremely low, and wide rectangular cuboid only aids in your visualization in a very specific context, namely how how many foots you are flooding your acre sized fields with water.
wiether
> m³ is already a pretty hard to visualize unit (unless you are used to visualize volume) but acre feet is just about impossible.
Idk about the US but in Europe 1m³ water tanks[0] are extremely popular as rainwater collectors. Also they are approximately the size of a pallet, another popular item.
Whereas acre feet, since I don't know what both units are... But "are meter" wouldn't help either, to be fair.
[0]: https://www.multicuves.com/2049-thickbox_default/kit-eco-de-...
db48x
No, an acrefoot is defined as a foot × an acre. Acres are a unit of area, and can be any shape. They’re especially useful for lakes because you generally know the area that the lake covers and measuring the depth is really easy. If your lake covers 1234 acres and the water rises by a two and a half feet, then obviously you have gained 1234 × 2.5 = 3085 acrefeet of water. It’s designed to be useful without requiring anyone to do any unit conversions at all.
rendaw
Firstly I don't think gp meant it literally, but conversationally as in: the definition decomposes to foot x chain x furlong.
Acres can be any shape, but gp is correct that acres were originally defined as chain x furlong (per wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlong ). They're also correct that it's a weird combination of disparate sizes which doesn't lend itself to visualization.
kristjansson
It’s a great unit for dealing with lots of water though. Talk x billion gallons vs xxx million gallons and people glaze over. A m3 is too small, but the entire Colorado compact is only like 17 km3. The analogous km2-meter might work, but it’s still huge.
The acre-foot is a nice manageable size. Plus if you know you’ve got 160 acres planted, and you need 6 in of water over everything, it’s pretty easy figure the volume to request
timewizard
> a chain (66 feet) × a furlong (660 feet).
That's a furrow width x a furrow length. I imagine our agrarian roots have something to do with this. Then you can easily find tables for expected food production from 1 acre of your crops.
> weird rectangular cuboid
A good 1:10 crop row.
> m³ is already a pretty hard to visualize unit
1000 1L bottles doesn't seem that hard to visualize.
pizzafeelsright
Acres is easy enough to visualize. About 90 yards of an American football field. Whatever the perimeter the area is about the same.
Square is great in a science book but land and reality is easier with divisions by 2,3,4,6,8 etc
russdill
An acre is a weird unit, but people in the US have a general sense of how large an acre is
null
BobbyTables2
That’s hilarious. As I read your first sentence, I thought “if only it used furlongs”…. And it does (;->
cesarb
> m³ is already a pretty hard to visualize unit (unless you are used to visualize volume)
I don't think it's that hard; just think of a standard 1000L water tank (which is, in my experience, the most common size).
ggm
Plastic Tanks being imported from metric economies for sale in imperial measurement economy?
It's 264 US gallons. So presumably sold as a 250 gallon tank with a bit of extra headroom.
bagels
All of the reservoirs were and are above the average level for this time of year during the fires and now, including those in Southern California.
https://cdec.water.ca.gov/resapp/RescondMain
This accomplishes nothing useful, unless they plan to irrigate the wilderness to keep the brush green year round (of course, there is certainly not enough water for that).
jeffbee
Neither of the reservoirs in question are on that graphic, FYI. Both of these lakes are empty and generally would be in January. Which is why combined outflows of 2500 cubic feet per second is extraordinary. https://www.spk-wc.usace.army.mil/plots/california.html?name...
duskwuff
> including those in Southern California
Which - to be clear - Tulare County is not a part of. While it's in the southern part of the San Joaquin Valley, that doesn't make it part of Southern California. The dividing line is around the Tehachapi Mountains.
Water released from these reservoirs would end up flowing northwards in the San Joaquin River, and eventually out to sea in the Sacramento Delta. It wouldn't do anything to help fight fires in Los Angeles; it's in entirely the wrong place for that.
AlotOfReading
That's not quite correct. The California aqueduct is able to transport water from the delta down to LA by pumping it over the mountains.
This is only a technicality though because even though the system includes the largest pumps in the world, it's still relatively small compared to a natural waterway at full capacity and it's already running.
labster
Heh, everyone has a different no idea of the line between SoCal and NorCal. I saw a talk someone from ESRI who did a survey of Californians on where the line is. The only hard and fast rule is that “nobody wants Hanford”, apparently. But your line is one of the more southern ones, since most people include Bakersfield in SoCal.
russdill
Apparently we just need to water the tumbleweeds and keep them green. I wish I were making this up.
mikestew
Follow up story: Trump’s emergency water order responsible for water dump from Tulare County lakes
https://sjvwater.org/trumps-emergency-water-order-responsibl...
Terr_
> Tulare County water managers were perplexed and frustrated, noting both physical and legal barriers that make it virtually impossible for Tulare County river water to be used for southern California fires.
So... Trump just wanted Hugest Most Beautiful Water Moving Numbers so he could brag to his supporters, and he ordered it done no matter how useless or harmful it would be?
Oof. I'm remembering that 2018 letter [0] where some anonymous staff sought sympathy from the American public for their unsung work keeping Trump from Doing Something Crooked. (I still feel they were actually making it worse in the long run.)
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_Part_of_the_Resistance_In...
mikeyouse
This is going to be so much worse than the first term. It's only been 11 days and just nonstop chaos already, except the 'sensible' Republicans don't seem to care any more.
9283409232
There are no sensible Republicans. They are all complicit. Even for the Democrats, it feels like Bernie, AOC, and Haskins are the only ones really fighting in Congress.
anigbrowl
Yes. He tweeted a photograph of some flowing water earlier and took credit for it, and of course an army of sycophants marveled over the quality of his new outfit.
userbinator
noting both physical and legal barriers that make it virtually impossible for Tulare County river water to be used for southern California fires.
Trump doesn't care about legal barriers, but he may be a little more convinced about physical ones.
sangnoir
> [...] but he may be a little more convinced about physical ones.
He thought raking forests would prevent fires. His off-the-cuff solution to physical barriers would be long hoses and a bunch of water pumps.
Dalewyn
[flagged]
HeatrayEnjoyer
What you purpose sounds like unitary theory, which is a scary and absolutely not good practice. Boring career government staff with no personal loyalties are essential in democratic government.
Chris2048
> The reservoir may belong to the federal government, but the water is ours
So, what are the rules regarding water ownership?
jpollock
https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.h...
It wasn't until 2012 that you were allowed to capture RAIN that fell on your roof.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
Chris2048
This says:
> California's waters cannot be owned by individuals, groups, businesses, or governmental agencies.
A contrast with "Every drop belongs to someone"
Maybe this is an issue is loose language, but it feels like the state owns the water, not individuals? Perhaps the use of the word belongs means state-allocated?
prawn
Was there a period earlier in Californian history where it was the norm, or has it always been discouraged?
In South Australia which is similarly dry to parts of California, newly built houses are required to have rainwater tanks installed and plumbed to the house (e.g., to flush a toilet, for example).
daveguy
Do you have a reference for the legislation that originally required a permit, or is the bill you reference just a clarification to make explicit that a permit is not required? Seems like this bill is just a clarification and grants explicit permission for landscaping contractors to install rainwater catchment systems which they already had permission for hot tubs, patios, pools, and all the other things listed.
null
ks2048
So some guys are sitting around managing a dam and the President just calls and tells them to open it up? So, he can say he made some water flow in California? What??
Everyone in this chain of command should be fired and Trump should get the 25th amendment.
(I know that won't happen... we'll be on to the next scandal tomorrow, then the next, ad infinitum...)
metamet
This, alongside side the footage and mic of him signing EOs he neither wrote nor know what they are, really make it seem like they're just keeping him occupied.
briandear
Did Biden write anything he signed? This comment is a bit disingenuous considering that Biden was asleep for his entire term. His nap times were legendary.
quink
Well, if we’re going by those metrics then wait ‘til I tell you about the young dynamic lad who replaced President Hindenburg, age 84.
I prefer sleepy. If the presidency should be spent in a coma compared to this, then all the better.
idle_zealot
> Everyone in this chain of command should be fired and Trump should get the 25th amendment. (I know that won't happen
I think that ship sailed when Merrick Garland failed to aggressively prosecute Trump after he incited an attack on the Capitol. He seems to have been under the impression that given time opinions would settle and become wholly aligned against Trump. Instead, the Republicans' initial condemnation gave way to denial and approval. Garland misjudged the right-wing's domination of media and assumed that sanity would prevail, sparing him from having to do something potentially controversial. Now just over half the voting population believes that the 2020 elections were rigged by Democrats, and that they tried to unjustly charge Trump. It was liberal incompetence at its peak, and it may well be the historical all-time peak-liberal point ideologically-speaking, as we're forced to confront the fact that propaganda works, and voters are not rational. My greatest fear is that Trump tanks the economy, makes life intolerable, and when 2028 rolls around the American public overwhelmingly vote in a Democrat who has learned nothing of value and runs on a platform of "return to sanity" ushering in a return to neo-liberalism, but dropping the progressive social policies in favor of strict media and communication controls to "prevent misinformation from destroying our country again."
ipv6ipv4
This should theoretically please some farmers in the region. But this is in winter, and I wonder if the farmers really like this, especially since the water won't be there in the summer when it is most needed. I'm piqued to hear what actual farmers in the region have to say.
mikrotikker
Sounds like someone needs some leaky weirs to help store water in the ground
null
SubiculumCode
I grew up beneath that lake..this is insane.
stouset
It’s wonderful that completely uninformed politicians at the national level are making low-level decisions like this now. What could go wrong?
dylan604
Unfortunately, if anyone expected anything different than utter chaos from this administration then they live in a different reality. It only sounds harsh because it's true.
scelerat
Just surveying broadly what's going on I think it is wrong to assume the decisions being made are uninformed. I think they may be, unfortunately, very well informed.
onlyrealcuzzo
Small government at its smallest.
cozzyd
Government so small you can drown it in lake Tulare
null
yongjik
Hell, after the long long first week of Trump, I'd be relieved if the worst they did at any given day was trying to flood some Californian streams.
stouset
The worst isn’t flooding some streams, it’s the crop failure from lack of water during the summer thanks to emptying the reservoirs over winter.
This is active sabotage of the nation’s food supply.
I can’t wait to find out how this will be blamed on Biden.
hipadev23
That’s precisely the plan. So when we have crop problems this summer due to lack of available labor they can instead point to “irresponsible water management by California”
cozzyd
The crops had too much DEI.
AlotOfReading
No, that will provide justification to divert the 60% of "environmental water" flow sustaining natural wetlands and fish populations into agricultural usage, an issue central valley farmers have been unhappy about for years.
briandear
[flagged]
morkalork
Well Lysenkoism in the USSR and killing sparrows in China worked out great didn't it? /s
null
jijji
[flagged]
jeffbee
[flagged]
duskwuff
> How is Altadena going to fight fire with water from the Tule?
Clearly the sheer power of this executive order would make the water flow upstream, across a couple of mountain ranges, and into the waiting fire hydrants.
kristjansson
> water flow upstream, across a couple of mountain ranges
Don’t forget back in time
fzeroracer
Wrong on all accounts. Open a map.
dylan604
As an aside from the actual article, the website has some interesting class names. Using a class name of "force_consent" just sounds like something that to anyone with morals would reconsider the use of that name.
California Reservoir Status as maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers:
https://www.spk-wc.usace.army.mil/fcgi-bin/midnight.py?days=...
1 acre foot is 43560 feet^3, or 1233 m^3 of water.