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Scalable OLTP in the Cloud: What's the Big Deal?

taeric

Fun read. I am a bit curious on not mentioning OLAP, at all?

From my experience, the vast majority of complications in systems is people not realizing they are asking an OLAP question while wanting parts of OLTP semantics.

I'm also curious how much of this extra complication comes from having a central database that tries to be a source of truth for everything? As an easy example, inventory systems that try and have a cloud source of truth have obvious problems when on the ground inventory issues crop up. That is, a lot of the complication is between the distributed nature of the application and database, sure. But, another large source is the non-distributed abstraction that a central database can represent not centralized activity.

mamcx

> I'm also curious how much of this extra complication comes from having a central database that tries to be a source of truth for everything?

You can reverse this as 'how much extra complication comes from having many disparate databases, so now you push all ACID complications at the company level instead of the software(rdbms)'

It is a tricky problem!

Having a single source of truth is a tremendous simplification, especially for the people.

It should be ideal that the other databases are pure materializations on top of it, but then not matter what you have the need to input more stuff that is not part of the central one, and now you have both problems.

nyrikki

Single source of truth is different in distributed systems, well the costs are different.

Using the language of 'software architecture: thee hard parts' this forces your entire system into a single 'architectural quanta', basically it is a monolith.

There are situations where monoliths are acceptable or even the least worst option.

The 'Fallacies of distributed computing' covers most of these.

It can work better if you use a hierarchical model, but OLTP is almost exclusively the relational model.

ACID transactions become pretty brittle, software becomes set in stone etc...

There are use cases, but the value proposition is typically much weaker

taeric

A single source of truth for facts is fine. A single source of truth that has to be reflected by external reality? Less fine. At that point, you pretty much have to have reconciliation processes to account for when they don't match.

Oddly, I'd argue that the better way to view this is that the central database is the materialization of the data sources scattered around where work actually happens. As such, you have to have constructs that account for provenance and timing introduced there that aren't as necessary at the edges.

honestSysAdmin

> From my experience, the vast majority of complications in systems is people not realizing they are asking an OLAP question while wanting parts of OLTP semantics.

If you could elaborate on this further, I and others are probably very interested in reading more about it.

taeric

As the sibling says, it is easy to think about in terms of what you are doing with the data. Reporting on how many transactions of a type have happened over a duration? Probably OLAP. Really, if the word "report" shows up, at all, probably OLAP. Executing parts of a workflow for an active transaction? OLTP.

Briefly looking, I can't find the books that I thought covered a lot of this in a good way. Will keep looking, apologies.

datadrivenangel

Designing Data Intensive Applications is a very good book in this space.

juancn

The main data access difference between OLAP systems and OLTP systems is how many records on average do you need to access:

- OLAP: most queries need most records (aggregations span large swaths of data)

- OLTP: most queries access just a few records

Also, in OLAP, in many cases, you can live with a single-updater model without much trouble, where OLTP, the strength is to have many concurrent updaters (but mostly non-overlapping).

yoda97

So the first focuses on analytics and reporting, the second on transactions and performance. They are not meant to replace each other, they serve different purposes. Some teams may need both.

greggyb

- OLAP: read-mostly, table-scan heavy, many queries run ad-hoc by users

- OLTP: write-mostly, index-seek heavy, ~all queries pre-defined up front

hobs

OLAP - Most queries need an aggregate of records. Generally you do NOT need most records, but simply the records grouped by dimensions per interval (for almost all olap reporting). You do not change the data, you observe it. If you change it, you are not dealing with OLAP data.

OLTP - You are dealing with the ins and outs of people using stuff to do things. You buy something, you check out something, you some way perturb the state of things. This should not require large amount of row lookups in 99.9% of cases.

datadrivenangel

I agree that analytical queries cause a significant portion of the complication in transactional systems.

However, at global/twitter scale, just basic CRUD operations become pretty hard for OLTP, so scalable OLTP in the cloud is a pretty big deal, especially when you get fun things like phantom read/writes as writes may take time to get to distributed read replicas, so a user may send a tweet and then not see it on their profile for a while.

taeric

I mean, sure? I hesitate to take the global/twitter scale debates seriously, unfortunately. They are dominated by straw men arguments that you can get sub 50ms latency on every action for all viewers. :(

tharkun__

You can't and it shouldn't matter and I don't care if everyone sees my upvotes on Reddit right away / at the same time as others or if I see theirs or when exactly my comments show up.

But global/twitter/reddit etc. scale does matter in that I don't really remember a PHPBB or slashdot or HN swallowing my comments, ever. Even if you get an error you can always just go back in the browser and your input box is there with your comment.

But reddit has been effing atrocious over the last few months. You get "Internal Server Error" when trying to do any voting or commenting a lot and it won't go away until you refresh the page like 17 times (until presumably you round robin get to some BE server that actually works. It's also been swallowing comments, where about every third or fourth comment it accepts the comment instead of throwing an Internal Server Error at you (which would be preferable) and instead it "accepts" it but it will never show up. Ever. Only chance is to copy every comment before submitting, in case you have to re-submit it from scratch.

danpalmer

Surprising that neither this post nor the linked paper that it's about talk about Spanner, and instead only look at Oracle/SQL Server/Postgres. From what I understand, Spanner really does scale up OLTP to global level, where those alternatives struggle beyond regional level.

jburbank

Spanner really can. It has its own quirks, but I've enjoyed working with it.

whartung

Maybe someone can answer how this is done.

Simply, the mad crushing dash to get the last bit of committed inventory.

Ticketmaster has 50,000 General Admission Taylor Swift tickets and 1M fans eager to hoover them up.

This is a crushing load on a shared resource.

I don't know if there's any reasonable outcome from this besides the data center not catching on fire.

bigmutant

As others have said, this is a solved problem in a lot of companies. Basic answers are: 1. Queuing 2. Asynchronous APIs (don't wait for the 'real' response, just submit the transaction) 3. Call-backs to the Client

A good async setup can easily handle 100k+ TPS

If you want to go the synchronous route, it's more complicated but amounts to partitioning and creating separate swim-lanes (copies of the system, both at the compute and data layers)

ndriscoll

Add a rate limit in nginx so that a single client has bounded work on your backend (e.g. 1/1-10s), and batch your requests into ~100/transaction using an in-memory queue. 1 server has been able to deal with ~1M connections for many years. No fires needed.

On a business side, they drastically lower the request load and make scalping unprofitable by holding a Dutch auction.

dangoodmanUT

You build systems designed for this workload, you don't foolishy try to use the same patterns as a CRUD app.

dangets

Sharding, pre-allocating leases of blocks of tickets across available resources, and eventual consistency. You don't need to keep the UX transactionally correct; you are able to say "0 tickets remaining" and then a minute or hour or day later say "100 tickets remaining". For something as popular as Taylor Swift, the fans will keep checking.

riku_iki

> ticketmaster has 50,000 General Admission Taylor Swift tickets and 1M fans eager to hoover them up.

I think something like trivial postgres setup can handle this thing..

immibis

You, as a business entity, have to figure out how you want to allocate them. They aren't going to get sold the normal way, so you get to choose whether you want to acknowledge that and design the system, or not design it and let nature take its course.

I've been to events that used a lottery. You order a ticket any time in, say, a month window. At the end, they tell you if you actually got a ticket. They have a process for linking orders together so you can choose to get a ticket if and only if your friends do.

I've also been to C3, which (in the second phase) knowingly used a first-come-first-serve three times, putting some kind of lightweight proxy in front of the actual shop that would only allow a certain number of people to access it at a time (this is important because you don't know how many tickets each user is going to order). In the first phase, they use a system of "self-replicating vouchers" for various trusted C3-affiliated groups: one voucher is given to each group, allowing an order; at the end of each day until this portion of the ticket pool runs out, a new voucher is given to whoever made an order the previous day. I don't know the reasons why self-replicating vouchers are designed exactly that way, but it means each group gets to run down their own self-determined priority order and gets punished for inefficiency.

The capitalist approach is, of course, raise the price to twenty thousand dollars or whatever level it takes for only 50,000 people to want to buy a ticket.

honestSysAdmin

I could be wrong here, I'm not an expert with databases, but I believe -- this is a belief, please help me disconfirm it if you think it is wrong -- that CitusDB's approach that shards Postgres across redundant mirrors, should successfully scale horizontally for OLTP without sacrificing consistency.

AlexB138

Citus still has a centralized coordinator that all requests go through to be routed to their shard, or at least it did several years ago when I last ran it in production. It definitely scales further than single instances, but it's not a magic bullet.

dangoodmanUT

Others can do it too: Spanner, FoundationDB. SI just has generally better performance because there is less to check, and you can always opt-in to row locking if you need (because of write-write conflicts)