New Electrical Code Could Doom Most Common EV Charging
54 comments
·January 24, 2025pugworthy
m463
Talking to electricians, they gave me the impression that GFCI/AFCI had side-effects that were not related to an unsafe condition.
Personally I've noticed buzzing or interference with some lighting on gfci circuits.
exmadscientist
> Specifically if your GFCI in the bathroom (or anywhere) keeps tripping it’s because something is wrong with your wiring or something plugged into the outlet.
Unfortunately this is not quite true. For two-prong plugs, yes, it is 100% accurate. However larger devices with grounded plugs, especially heavier machinery, will typically contain a line filter with Y capacitors running line to ground. This shows up as a tiny leakage current, which some GFCIs will detect (because it really is leaking) even though this is a nuisance trip (because it is completely safe and normal operation). That's part of where the 30mA trip specification for certain types of non-normal-residential-circuit comes from.
mike_d
You are talking about industrial applications. Devices running in residential or commercial environments should be better designed. Proper shielding and grounding is a much better solution than a Y capacitor.
exmadscientist
Well, they aren't.
Line filters are everywhere. They're generally required to pass conducted emissions requirements. They aren't going away soon, and our fault protection devices need to work with them, not blindly ignore how we've been meeting EMC requirements for decades.
pugworthy
Fair enough but it’s not the best example to use to introduce GFCI.
Something like this?
“Though you rarely will see your bathroom GFCI trip (unless you’re dropping the hair dryer into the bath water), some kinds of larger, more complicated machinery can cause nuisance trips.”
exmadscientist
Sure, I wouldn't normally go there, but the subject of this discussion is exactly the "larger, more complicated machinery"!
jaggederest
And that GFCI might be the only thing keeping you from being electrocuted every time the curling iron won't heat up. Standing in a puddle touching a metal pipe casually confused by why it sometimes tingles.
toast0
> Specifically if your GFCI in the bathroom (or anywhere) keeps tripping it’s because something is wrong with your wiring or something plugged into the outlet.
Or the outlet itself. Some outlets end up false tripping, and need to be replaced. Probably happens with GFCI breakers, if that's where the GFCI is. Of course, normal breakers sometimes false trip and need replacement, too.
phire
Yeah. Sounds like there something wrong with the authors wiring or curling iron.
We have had whole-house GFCIs (or RDCs as we call them here) in the NZ electrical standards for 20 years, they seem to be pretty reliable, I've never seen them trip for without a reason.
I have seen them trip on devices that were barely faulty. Devices which worked fine on a regular outlet, but would trip a RCD.
russdill
The residual current rating in NZ is 30mA. The proposed standard here would be 5mA. This seems to be one of the primary things the author in the article is calling out, that for especially heavy draws, 5mA is too low a trip point.
pkulak
TFA explains that it’s all relative. Trying to detect 5ma of current going to the wrong place under a 48-amp load may be impossible and will probably result in constant false trips. Probably also in the middle of the night, leaving your car not charged in the morning.
exmadscientist
I have been convinced for years that the National Electrical Code is written first and foremost to serve the interests of electrical wiring device manufacturers, and not the needs of end users, or even the safety of end users.
The way the AFCI mess played out lost them so much credibility that it is hard to take this seriously as being about "safety" any more.
NewJazz
What AFCI mess?
dlcarrier
Search online for "AFCI" along with any appliance that has a motor in it, like a vacuum, refrigerator, or hair dryer. You'll get pages of posts of people asking why the appliances keep tripping the AFCI breaker.
The reason why is that those devices create arcs, and AFCI breakers are completely unable to handle them. Some regions require AFCI breakers, so a significant portion of household appliances will occasionally trip the breaker.
The worst part is that it isn't particularly consistent, so your fridge could last for years without tripping it, but as brushes wear the arcs they regularly create increase the chances of a trip, until one day you find that all your food is ruined, because the AFCI breaker tripped at an inopportune time.
Fortunately, my fridge trips the AFCI very reliably, so I was able to detect it before losing any food. All I had to do to fix it was make a few passes with the hot wire through a ferrite bead, right before it connects to the AFCI breaker. It completely blocks the arc-created RF that the AFCI is detecting, disabling the functionality of the AFCI, all without any code violations, because while the AFCI is required, the ferrite bead isn't prohibited.
exmadscientist
AFCI stands for "Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter", a type of device that detects arcing (sparks) on a circuit and will shut things down if the "arc strength" is above some arbitrary threshold. The main risk from arcing is fire. Compare GFCIs, "Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters", which detect when some current supplied to the device is going missing (i.e., returning through a different path involving ground) and shut things down if the missing current exceeds some level in milliamps. The main risk from a ground fault is electrocution.
It turns out that detecting arcs is hard. Really, really hard. The window between "normal operation of some random crap that's plugged in" and "bad stuff" is tiny, or even nonexistent. (Old tools with brushed motors arc during normal operation!) I worked on an arc fault detector once, as part of a larger project. We never got the thing working before the whole project got canned. It was consistently the one piece of the project that I was reporting to management as "We have no idea how to make this work. The rest of this thing, we have a plan for (maybe a bad plan, and maybe we won't execute well; such is life in R&D), but the arc detector doesn't work, we have no plan for it, and no idea how to make a plan." And we were doing a next-generation version of a device already shipping — we should have had a working arc detector right out of the gate! But it didn't work.
(The tests for arcs, incidentally, were insane. We used the test procedure from the previous-generation product, a special board made up with various "simulated arc strengths". Then we set up a low-kV range power supply, put on those giant rubber gloves that you see in cartoons, and moved in a pointy probe, by hand, toward the right spot on the test board until it arced over. This was less than reliable, and rather difficult to automate. (My proposal to automate testing by changing the intern's name to "Automated" was not accepted.) It turns out that the arc signature is deeply dependent on the exact test method you use. We had another fixture designed in-house involving a variable-distance spark gap made with two adjustable spheres. Its results were completely and totally different than the other board, so we just pretended it had never existed.)
So arc detection is difficult. It will not surprise you then to learn that the first generation of AFCI devices and breakers did not actually work correctly. They were notorious for tripping randomly and generally not things you wanted to have in your life. They were also expensive (probably paying more for the testing than for the materials cost). The NEC mandated their use anyway. Their reliability was so ridiculously poor that there was general agreement among everyone that that part of the NEC should just be ignored and standard or GFCI devices used instead. Did the NEC care? No, they insisted that AFCIs were important. Even though they didn't work. This made a lot of people start to distrust them.
We're on second or third generation AFCI devices now, and they seem to have improved a lot. They don't really false trigger anymore. But do they correctly trigger, or did they just desensitize them so they don't do anything at all? I haven't tested, and I don't want to!
It's also worth considering the risks mitigated by AFCIs. Arc faults at 120V are not really that common, and when serious arc faults do occur, they usually result in an electrical fire. Fire is certainly very bad, but I'd say it's a lot less dangerous than the nearly-instant death by electrocution that GFCIs prevent. (Note that at 240V arc faults are much more common, and up at 480V they are straight-up lethal in their own right. DO NOT FUCK WITH 480.)
So the NEC mandated AFCI devices that caused major hassle, mitigated minor risks, and cost a lot of money. That annoyed people. This came on the heels of them requiring GFCIs everywhere (same issue; ground faults in non-wet locations are not really a major risk with North American style TN-C-S earthing, but at least GFCIs work). That annoyed people. And then they had required TR receptacles everywhere (which, personally, I consider of very little benefit, though I won't argue with anyone who disagrees; at least it's obvious what's going on there), when that technology was also half baked (seriously, early TR receptacles were horrid to use, though they are pretty decent now). That annoyed people.
You can see the trend. A lot of crappy technologies were made mandatory at our expense for minor to modest gains in safety, high losses in reliability, and extreme costs in annoyance. Thus, the question: who are these guys really looking out for? Us? Manufacturers? Insurers?
p0w3n3d
When driving a car with internal combustion engine, you pay a lot (in Europe especially a lot!) taxes in the gas price. This means that all the people driving EV would (so far) avoid this tax and this means that this must be put to an end!!!!1
So this move might be also about taxing the EVs (just a tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theory maker here, don't take my words too seriously)
exmadscientist
I don't think you have to go that far.
I think the NEC is beholden to the people who make this stuff. Right now I have a 14-50R in my garage (I don't even use it, I have it shut off at the panel; I don't have an EV, this is just new construction). The standard breaker is $18.98 right now at the big orange store. The GFCI version they're trying to make mandatory is $190.68.
I think that says all you need to know.
(And before anyone says they must cost that much more to make... they do not. I have designed GFI and AFI devices. You need to add a circuit board, yes, a pretty rugged one. The ordinary breaker is all mechanical. But that does not cost $170 more to do.)
Ekaros
That is amazing price for something that millions of will be made each year. Just calculate how many of them are needed in total and then take replacement even every 50 years or something. It scales to large number needed.
eecc
Indeed, and this mass-produced stuff is pretty simple compared to an IC chip. Who are handcrafting these devices, blonde virgin maidens at night under the shine of a full moon? :D
alibarber
Don’t worry - in my country (Finland) they already thought of that and instead of the emissions based annual road tax, which would of course be zero, they managed to add a ‘tax on driving power’ to electric cars.
Notwithstanding that electricity for any use already has a per KWh tax added. Plus sales tax of course.
eecc
Well, in Italy the road tax has always been on engine power.
Indeed the VAT is a nuisance, actually the most regressive form of taxation possible: rich people with enough income who can afford to spend only a fraction of it, end up paying VAT accordingly; while low income citizens who have to spend all their salary end up with an additional, significant tax burden on their whole net income.
Reason077
When we had our EV charger installed in our garage the electrician put in a sort of mini-panel right next to the charger with just two breakers in it.
I don't think the breaker for the EV charger has ever tripped, but if it did, it's very easy to access it and reset it.
pkulak
That’s odd. An EVSE doesn’t require protection. It is the protection.
Reason077
Yes, EV chargers typically include their own fault detection of course. But regulations here (Australia/NZ) require a GCFI ("Type B RCD") to be installed, even if it's redundant.
spockz
Some chargers (older ones) don’t have protection against DC flowing back from the car due to a faulty car transformer built in. So we had to add one ourselves. I think that is the type B that was mentioned in sibling comment.
null
mike_d
The TLDR is EV chargers want an exemption from ground fault protection because they have ground fault protection built in. Lots of devices have built in protections for various electrical faults, but we still put them upstream because one of the things we are protecting against is the device itself faulting.
It is like the people holding this view don't understand that Wish.com and Aliexpress exist.
pkulak
So then what’s protecting the protection? And that protection? At some point you have to stop. EVSEs have to be UL rated and conform to the J1772 spec. Their entire reason for existing is safety, and they basically don’t do anything else. They don’t modify the delivered power in any way. I guess they have a plug that’s rated for 1000s of connection cycles, but that’s really a safety thing too. Putting another GFCI behind that is a silly waste of time, money and another point of failure.
mike_d
> So then what’s protecting the protection?
Look out your window at the power pole, you'll see a transformer. That has breakers, differential relays, and other protections.
> And that protection?
Substations have RTUs and SCADA systems that are constantly monitoring everything for faults. They have cool shit like oil breakers that can kill even the large inputs to the substation.
> At some point you have to stop.
No, you don't. The protections go all the way back to the power generation site.
pyrale
The transport/distribution network is hardly comparable to consumer appliances, though. The risks and costs are not the same.
You don’t pay people to monitor your home electric network 24/7. You don’t risk damaging a power plant when there’s a short-circuit at home.
ralph84
Yeah even putting aside the Temu specials, a belt and suspenders approach to not killing people does not deserve the derision this article gives it. The built in ground fault protection is there to protect the equipment not humans. In the real world stuff that “shouldn’t happen” eventually happens.
atoav
As an electrical eningeer I can't help but thinking: Yeah then don't run equipment/infastructure that is so badly designed and/or in such bad shape that it produces 5mA of fault current at startup. It isn't as if it is unknown how to test and prevent such things.
If your device is constantly tripping your GFCI, that was a decision some bean counter (or totally clueless contractor) was willing to make, not a god given inherent fact of the universe. All that you know is that the think could be saving your life as the fault current has to go somewhere that isn't back into the system. But of course now the US has an unelected car manufacturer in government, so it is important to let them reduce the quality of things so they can make more money. The actual solution is to test products before they hit the market and test/overhaul dangerously wrong wiring in houses.
If your gas safety valve keeps shutting down the gas because your gas bottle is heating up next to the flame, vuess what: the solution isn't to remove the safety valve.
NewJazz
Why is it okay for marine vehicles to use the 30 mA standard but not terranean vehicles?
Is there an EVSE that doesn't have this problem?
This discussion might interest you: https://old.reddit.com/r/evcharging/comments/15blqlj/how_som...
andrewfromx
can someone explain how this will likely play out?
nickff
I think the idea is that these low ‘trigger levels’ on these new and mandatory devices will erroneously trip on a semi-regular basis, because EVs are often charged in adverse conditions. The erroneous trips will then be inconvenient enough so as to dissuade people from buying EVs.
diggernet
To elaborate a bit more, it sounds like the new rule would require the GFCI breaker (which requires a manual reset) to be more sensitive than the required protection already built into the EV charger (which auto-resets). So at any hint of a potential problem, the GFCI would trip first, before the EV charger could respond, forcing a manual reset.
robocat
> the EV charger which auto-resets
I wonder if there is any telemetry that gives statistics on how often the EV chargers already trip?
andrewfromx
but surely the millions of people that already own an EV will demand a solution?
rogerrogerr
The solution is easy: rip the GFCI/AFCI breaker out and put a normal one in. Keep the code-compliant one in a plastic sack and reinstall it before you sell or get inspected for another reason.
Used to be the advice was to put in a hardwired charger and bypass this entirely, but now they’re ruining that. This is one of those cases where having a screwdriver and a phone with YouTube is a huge advantage.
somerandomqaguy
Anyone that owns an EV currently won't be affected. New building codes usually allow for grandfathering in existing installations until the next time there's renovation requiring an update to the building's electrical.
This only affects new builds after the codes come into force. EVSE manufacturers will just have to adapt.
xeonmc
I guess the solution is that only specific existing American EV makers will be exempt.
skykooler
It won't affect them, assuming that they already have an EV charger - this would apply to new installations.
forgetfreeman
Ostensibly their solution already exists as anything they are currently using to charge their vehicle will be grandfathered in.
cyberax
Uhm... Why would it be a problem? A car is literally floating (electrically), so any ground fault would be within the charging circuit.
My charger is connected via a NEMA 14-50 outlet, that uses regular GFCI breakers in the panel. They have not ever tripped, outside of me testing the outlet.
null
This quote from the article annoys me…
> … it proposes to require the same exact ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection that makes you push that little button on your bathroom outlet every time the curling iron won’t heat up.
Specifically if your GFCI in the bathroom (or anywhere) keeps tripping it’s because something is wrong with your wiring or something plugged into the outlet.
It took some restraint to not use all caps in part of that sentence.