Turn any bicycle electric
203 comments
·January 23, 2025MattSayar
alistairSH
You just pop off your current bike's front wheel and install theirs...
And then you remove your bottle cage to install their battery (hope you don't ride a small frame). And then you install the speed/cadence sensor. Then you install the display/swtich/throttle assembly. Then you wire it all up.
And then you get into all the compatibility problems - many e-bike conversion kits are sold with a freehub that's not the correct size for modern cassettes (comes with HG 9-speed, need an HG 11-speed, XD, XDR, or Microspline freehub). Axle widths and axle type (bolt, QR, thru-axle).
Granted, all the above is easier than it sounds, but it's not quite as simple as "swap wheel, done". You need a working knowledge of bicycles to do this.
Then there's the cost. Basic "unbranded" kits are $500 or so. Brand-name kits, larger battery, or mid-drive kits cost more. Is it worth putting a $500 kit on an old bike that's only worth $100? Or, are you better off buying a new bike with warranty and no need for service for years (which will cost $1500-$3000).
esperent
> And then you get into all the compatibility problems - many e-bike conversion kits are sold with a freehub that's not the correct size for modern cassettes (comes with HG 9-speed, need an HG 11-speed, XD, XDR, or Microspline freehub). Axle widths and axle type (bolt, QR, thru-axle).
To be fair, all of these problems exist when doing work on normal bikes too.
semi-extrinsic
Yeah, I got so fed up with all that BS I just completely stopped riding bikes and went 100% longboard instead. They are so robust, simple and predictable.
EncomLab
Not to mention the fact that the last place you want to add a bunch of mass is the front wheel of a bicycle.
recursive
I don't think it's that big a deal outside racing applications.
lostlogin
Is the entirely correct? When there is side wind, a big guy on deep wheels sure has an easier time than a little guy on deep wheels.
lostlogin
> hope you don't ride a small frame
That bike bottles are so small seems to be due to small frames. 750ml is about the max normal size. I’ve tracked down some 950ml ones, but I’m sure you could go larger with a decent sized frame.
alistairSH
They make 1L bottles, but that’s larger than normal and probably special order.
Most of the batteries for e-bike kits look to be at least the size of a 1L bottle, if not even larger.
tim333
Or a used one. I mean if part of the bikes old anyway. I got a used one for ~$250 though I've since spent $100+ fixing stuff.
loeg
Cassette compatibility isn't going to be a problem with a front wheel conversion kit.
alistairSH
Fair, though you still have axle standards to consider. If it's a QR bike, it's pretty straightforward. But, most new bikes (in the US) are through-axle and disc brake.
peheje
Well said. And then... even after all that, it's probably not legal, and no insurance company will insure the bike or you if you get into an accident.
aoanevdus
I’m sure if I get hurt on my bike, my medical insurance coverage will not care at all whether the injury is from riding an e-bike.
If I hit somebody else on my bike… I don’t think I have insurance for that liability? I don’t think my auto or homeowner’s insurance policy mentions me riding bikes at all, let alone an exclusion for DIY e-bikes.
nxobject
Hilltoppers isn't alone in the market as well – there are no-name kits with the same target market of people who are handy with a spanner; Swytch [1] also offers kits, but their emphasis is on compatibility with the widest amount of bikes possible (i.e. they have a battery design that latches onto to tubes, racks, etc; and I'm told they provide a torque arm by default on kits so that people with used road bikes don't grind up their forks.)
steelframe
I installed a Swytch conversion kit on a couple of my bicycles in the U.S. I did have to file down the axles by about 1mm to get them to fit in the drops, but after that everything has been working pretty well. The ring with the magnets around the crank sometimes shifts out of alignment with the sensor, which results in the motor not kicking in sometimes. The extra weight on the front also makes it more squirrely, and I generally prefer to ride my mid-drive e-bike for distances longer than 3 or so miles.
SequoiaHope
Note that’s a front wheel not a front tire! When I first read your comment I was very curious to see how replacing just a tire could help here hah. But yeah that kind of product makes a lot of sense! I DIY’d my ebike using a BBSHD motor and an EM3EV battery. Including the bike the total cost was $3k but this type of setup could seriously replace a car in many locations, except the roads aren’t designed for it. I have plenty of experience riding bikes on public roads but I daydream about shutting down some of the roads and making them an independent bike network. The bike itself is fantastic it’s just cars that make it risky for the average person. We could absolutely accommodate more people biking if we commit to it! Would be lower costs than driving a car and I find it more fun not to be sitting in a huge metal box. My rear rack and panniers hold a lot of cargo and with good rain gear the weather doesn’t slow me down.
MattSayar
I have a bad habit of accidentally using "tire" and "wheel" synonymously, sorry! I updated it, thanks.
nayuki
It's okay, these concepts are frequently conflated. For example when it comes to cars, it is advised to put on "winter tires", but people usually keep an entire set of 4 tires+rims so that they change the wheels instead of the tires.
UncleOxidant
I'd be interested in something like the hilltoppers front wheel replacement, but the cheapest one being $550 with only 12 miles range seems like too much. The $899 specs are better, but then you're getting into deciding to maybe just buy a whole $1300 ebike instead of paying $900 for the front wheel replacement. I think if these prices were about half of what they're at they'd be selling quite well.
MattSayar
I don't disagree, however the 12 mile range assumes you won't pedal which of course you will. I have no investment here but I've been a happy customer. I think the ideal customer for these is someone who already has a bike and doesn't want to spend $1300 on a new ebike.
0_____0
The very first time I rode a Jump bike in SF with the front wheel motor assist, I immediately ate shit and crashed as I crossed some railroad tracks. It turns out there are some downsides to having the motor in front, in this case the motor overwhelming the available grip caused the front tire to spin up, which removes your ability to steer, or indeed, keep your face off the tarmac.
qmr
Pretty sure there are zero roads in the SF ( or even in the US ) that are paved with tarmacadam.
That word does not mean what you think it means.
doormatt
>Asphalt concrete (commonly called asphalt, blacktop, or pavement in North America, and tarmac or bitumen macadam in the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland)
mikestew
Your own link contradicts you. See sibling comment and link for common use of the term.
nuccy
The video is indeed very nice, it shows few things [1] not mentioned on the website:
- the chain is routed through the add-on device, so it should be longer than usual
- the pedals don't rotate when the chain and the wheel do, so there is a custom pedal hub with a ratchet mechanism
nradov
Any bike can be an ebike. Not every bike can be a safe ebike. Many cheaper or older bikes have kind of crappy brakes which don't hold up well to frequent stops from high speed, especially with a heavy rider or cargo. This type of ebike conversion can be fine but know what you're getting into before you buy.
New ebikes from reputable brands come with good brakes from the factory.
prmoustache
ebike doesn't mean high speed.
In many countries ebike assistance is strictly limited. Sure an ebike weight more than a regular bike, but the stress in brakes is only an issue in hilly places.
If you ride a bike restricting assistance to 25kph (15mph)/like in most countries[1] and do not hit steep dow hills there are very little reason for you to go faster as going past the assistance limit feels like hitting a sudden headwind. In that case you are riding slower than most cyclists doing recreative cycling on road bikes and are less likely to need strong braking.
[1] in europe you can buy faster ones but they need to be registered like a moped (for those limited to 45kph) or motorbikes, have plates and you usually lose the right to use bicycle lanes. Having said that, a lot of people are breaking the law and never get issues until they are involved in an accident and lose insurance coverage and get fined.
sleepybrett
I have an off the shelf ebike (rad expand 5). I'd say that their stock breaks on this model are woefully under powered. I swapped them with hydraulics within the first year.
Ebikes are generally pretty heavy, even i this case where you are converting an old bike, that aluminum box of batteries is going to add a ton of weight.. and given that there are many older bikes with caliper breaks out there... that's pretty scary. At least the expand ships with disk breaks (still not up to the task but a caliper break would be totally ineffective).
tim333
I've got a 15 mph ebike used in a city center and there are lot of near misses with pedestrians stepping out in front. It wouldn't be a good idea to have poor brakes.
saidinesh5
Even when the brakes are good, the tires are thin and don't have enough traction to go from 40 to 0 in under 2 meters.. learned this lesson the hard way, but still very worth the ebike conversion.
lostlogin
To go with what you’re saying - my road bike runs 28mm 65-80PSI tyres. It has a patch of each tyre touching the ground which is about the size of the tip of my index finger, maybe less. Very easy to lock up.
jnurmine
My first reaction was to just not bother when the large video appeared. Usually I hate those, so I almost closed the tab, but then I let the video roll. And I'm glad I did, it's great!
The design is pretty clever, I was expecting more work to make things happen. Also, the individual parts about mud and fireproofing etc. are quite illustrative.
However, for me the best part was the scenery. It just looks somehow... peaceful. Calm. I actually watched this several times just because of the scenery.
I don't know why it seems so peaceful. Maybe because the scenery and nature and the light (?!) reminds me of the late summers when I bicycled (not quite as effortlessly though) home as a child when the Sun was low. I mean especially the part when the dog is chasing him.
I was annoyed at one thing though: he casually throws the empty container of flammable liquid into the ditch. I hope he picked it up afterwards.
aanet
What the what?! This is so cool. I love everything about the demo. No (spoken) words, just a cool functioning product, in its intended uses cases, in different situations -- on fire, soaked in water, soaked in mud.
Even if the product actually did nothing useful (which is not the case here), the video itself a great marketing copy. <3
As a product person, this excites me.
However... I'm curious. This was launched ~2 years ago (per the YT video [1]). What happened? Is this still working? How is the company doing? Any ideas?? I don't see any other videos on their channel. I see some action on their Twitter [2] but sporadic.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFsnS0Yb1Bs [2] https://x.com/dhruvvidyut
zamalek
The mortality rate for amazing ideas is higher in developing countries, for more reasons than incompetent or corrupt governments. For example, there are fewer networking opportunities by virtue of the network being small, or the poverty rate would put a product like this well into the disposable income/toy space.
I would bet this thing would be a mad success if the inventor had won the birthplace lottery.
PaulDavisThe1st
Except that bicycles as everyday transport are much more common in the inventor's birthplace than in places typically thought of as "winning the birthplace lottery".
zamalek
Electric bicycles, however, are not.
araes
Interesting observation looking even a little bit beyond the superficial marketing copy. Peel back even one layer and find out there's only a single video, empty Youtube channel, 5000 subscribers (in India), and a product that seems like it never went anywhere. For all the stuff that gets crazy valuations, seems like there's so many of these that might be unicorns that end up falling through the cracks of investment.
tim333
The twitter has
>Manufacturing or manufacturing at scale for Bharat requires decisive trajectory and a whole another level of preparation & execution.
>After months of testing and streamlining DVECK... pilot orders
I guess making things is hard. Also having been in developing countries, people tend to buy the cheap Chinese stuff you see advertised on eBay and the like so they are competing with that.
Eric_WVGG
He should be the next Billy Mays
4gotunameagain
Let's check the numbers. They claim :
Range: 40km
20 min pedaling charges 50%
Top speed 25kph
So at 15kph, it would take 2.6 hours to reach the stated 40km range. 86.6Wh / 2.6hrs = 32.5W
A model based calculator [2] says that with 32.5W you indeed cycle at 15.5kph.
LiFePo batteries have an energy density of 325Wh/L, so we would need a battery volume of: 86.6Wh/325Wh/L = 0.27L, but a quick search for an example online reveals that a commercial 10Ah 12.8V takes up 1L. That would seem to fit within the product.
I was initially doubting the claims, but it seems to check out ?
[1] https://blog.2peak.com/en/what-are-the-average-watts-of-a-go... [2] https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
wigglewoggle
Unusual for ebikes to use lifepo as they are much larger and heavier than standard lithium ion. Especially in cylindrical formats that are needed to make bike friendly battery shapes.
4gotunameagain
Fair point, then even better for fitting the battery in the case.
redfern314
Also curious what "50%" means in their specs; the top power for the motor is 250W and top speed of 25kph would take ~100W on flat ground, which would throw off your calculations considerably. (Not that I take issue with your calculations, they just haven't published enough data to know what you'd actually be getting.)
4gotunameagain
More than happy to learn something through a mistake in my calculations !
Regarding the 50%, I assumed that they stated this number because this is when the battery is in bulk charge and can suck up as much as you can give it.
For the 250W, I hadn't even seen that, good catch. Maybe 250W is the peak power that cannot be sustained for thermal or current rating reasons ? 250W for a 12.8V 10Ah battery is 2C, so that should not be the limiting factor. I do not know about the motor or the ESC
Also, for sure the maximum range is not achieved with the top speed !
redfern314
Agreed on all points! Very plausible that 250W is peak; other motors on the market vary whether they state peak or sustained so the waters are a little muddy (e.g. I know that the popular BBS02 "750W" motor can put out over 1kW peak).
londons_explore
> with 32.5W you indeed cycle at 15.5kph.
With a perfect bike in a velodrome, maybe.
But on Indias rough roads with an old mountain bike, I suspect this number to be double.
4gotunameagain
It is a good point, but I highly doubt the stated 40km range was measured with a rusty bike off road. I think it is fair of a seller to state their range in good conditions.
lostlogin
I’m missing something, what’s unrealistic about 15.5kmh? That’s absolutely crawling on a bike.
4gotunameagain
What he meant was to go 15.5km/h with a good bike on a velodrome might require 32.5W, but it would require quite a bit more power on rough dirt roads with a shittier bike
Imustaskforhelp
This is great.
Also interesting that they use .co.in (as in we are from "India") and their name is also very indian . As an indian I actually respect that
Vidyut means electricity in Hindi and dhruv means stars If I remember correctly.
Dhruv is a very common name in India , One of my 5th standard classmate was named dhruv , Like dhruv rathee is a youtuber.
As an indian I appreciate this project. I suppose I have seen it on the Indian shark tank as well but I am not sure!
__rito__
Dhruv, rather its variation- Dhruv-ak means "constant" in mathematics in many Indian languages.
Dhruv Vidyut could be constant electricity, or Dhruv may just be the name of one of the founders or a relative of one of them.
Dhruva also means the Pole Star in many Indian languages.
It could also come from Indian mythology [0].
Imustaskforhelp
Oooh didn't knew that Dhruv also means constant!
I had always thought it from the indian mythology part or the pole star. But pole star is also considered as constant to sailors etc. , so yeah.
world2vec
The demo video on the top of the homepage is awesome. Explains the use case, how it works, key specs and so on, all in a nice smooth video.
Mengkudulangsat
The acting, storyboarding, frame composition, colour contrast are all better than some movies.
jajko
Also transforms anonymous product to some specific cool inventor stuff who as you now know has a sense of humor, and actually understands product testing and target audience. Smart move, well done.
f4c39012
i absolutely _wanted_ to watch this. And rewatch it. Showed it to others. This is awesome marketing of what looks like an amazing product, oh why isn't more marketing like this?!
jandrese
That's a quite a look, reminds me a bit of something from the Fallout universe. I'm a bit surprised at the "pedaling charges the batteries" bullet point. That's extremely rare in the e-bike world. 25,000 mph top speed seems somewhat optimistic however.
I assume it means 25 kph top speed, which is on the slower side for e-bikes.
aarroyoc
> I assume it means 25 kph top speed, which is on the slower side for e-bikes.
This is the maximum speed for an e-bike in many European countries
masklinn
slightly more nuanced, it’s the maximum speed for assistance to be classified as a pedelec.
Saris
>I'm a bit surprised at the "pedaling charges the batteries" bullet point. That's extremely rare in the e-bike world.
For the most part it doesn't make much sense for most e-bike users that have power easily available, the time required to charge a battery is a lot (average person puts out about 100-150W) and the average e-bike battery is 500Wh or so, 4+ hours to charge it by pedaling.
A normal mid-drive has clutches specifically to prevent this from happening so you don't get drag from the motor while pedaling without the motor running.
In countries where power is not as readily available it makes a lot more sense.
askvictor
I would be more interested in a bike where braking charges the battery.
For commuting, every traffic light is wasted energy, and cycling on the flat doesn't need much once you're at speed. A commuter with regenerative braking could probably have a much smaller battery, making it lighter too.
Saris
A hub motor ebike can do this with the right controller, assuming the hub motor has no clutch in it.
But you don't gain much, there's not a lot of weight to slow down with an ebike so regen gives you very little back.
You do lose the ability to efficiently climb steep hills with a hub motor, and they add a ton of unsprung weight if you have rear suspension which ruins its performance, so if that's your kind of terrain they're a bad choice.
Would save on brake pads though.
dachris
A friend of mine has an e-bike with regenerative braking using a rear hub motor.
It seems to have a recovery efficiency of about one third.
We once went up about 1200m in altitude difference, where it was completely empty. After having gone down again, it had recharged enough to work normally for the remaining 20km of our trip, driving in flat terrain.
ForHackernews
You might be interested in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLu6H-K4L2Y
The video is long and the innovation is subtle, but once you understand it it's like a lightbulb moment - IMHO a really brilliant example of elegant engineering, and designed by someone who had never ridden an ebike.
wigglewoggle
Regen braking is a thing for ebikes. I can't speak to OEM ebikes, but check out grin at ebikes.ca. They offer all the parts.
There are some cool features too like setting a speed limit after which Regen activates, so coasting down a hill will recharge you and add resistance to keep you at a safe speed.
The caveat is it doesn't make sense on mid drives because they freewheel when coasting
aucisson_masque
> cycling on the flat doesn't need much once you're at speed
You need around 200 watt to hold 25kmph on a flat road without wind with a standard bicycle like the one in the video.
With moderate wind, it is between 350 and 400 watt.
speerer
This made me smile, but I looked it up anyway and it turns out it's a non-SI abbreviation for kilometres per hour.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kmph
Not common in my country, the UK, but maybe in India? I know the Indian language numbering system has different number groupings, so why not.
joseda-hg
I mean, miles are so rare for non English speakers, that it didn't register to me as weird
1024core
In India, it is common to see "kmph" as an abbreviation for "kilometres per hour". "kph" is also used, of course.
bryanlarsen
The correct abbreviation is "km/h", so kmph is closer to the correct one than kph. kph seems like a measure of insane acidity.
xcskier56
Am I missing something... it looks like the chainring is able to spin independently of the pedals, as if they moved the freewheel from the rear hub to the bottom bracket. Without that this would never work like he demonstrates. I've never seen the freewheel on the chainring/bottom bracket on a bike in the US, is this a common in other parts of the world?
SamBam
I was very confused by that as well.
I studied the video, and the only thing that I can conclude is that he simply unbolted the pedals from the chain ring. The pedals would therefore not be doing anything at all except support the rider's feet.
The site says "pedaling recharges the battery." This would require re-bolting the pedals back on.
It's hard to see angles that can really make this clear. Maybe there are some freewheels that let the chain ring spin independently of the pedals, which makes no sense to me.
phkahler
>> it looks like the chainring is able to spin independently of the pedals, as if they moved the freewheel from the rear hub to the bottom bracket
IMHO that would be a safety hazard if they removed it from the rear hub. Without that, the chain will always be moving when the bike is moving. If your pants or anything else gets caught in there it ain't stopping.
Leaving it in the back AND putting it in the front as well is probably viable if a bit redundant.
ghist
> Without that, the chain will always be moving when the bike is moving.
I have a much simpler kind of bike where this is also the case :)
zwieback
No idea how the e-bike guys here did it but Schwinn had a bike for a while (my wife owned one) where the freewheeling was in the bottom bracket, it was called "FFS". It's pretty freaky and wasn't popular. You can see it in action starting at 0:30 here:
Lio
It's not common but you'll see it on some trials bikes.
I was always told that that is so you can use smaller sprockets front and rear for the same ratio, giving you more bottom bracket clearance when you're hopping about the place.
Obviously that's a very specific type of bike for a very specific purpose though.
analog31
Shimano Front Freewheel System (FFS) for a while in the 1980s. The only bike I know of that had one was the Schwinn World Tourist. I only know about it because I found a World Tourist in the trash and rode it for many years but with a different drivetrain.
prmoustache
There are other more modern systems with a crank mounted freewheel for enduro and DH bikes, allowing the rider to change gear while coasting in anticipation of a pedaling section. Similar to gearboxes, the idea comes back once in a while but never really takes off massively.
There was a french company named HXR components which used to produce that, I think they went bankrupt. Nowadays there is the Rocksteady Magic from boutique euro brand Intend: https://www.intend-bc.com/products/rocksteady-magic/
tantalor
Fitting all that (battery, motor, controller, voltage converter, charger) into a small package is pretty impressive.
Mid-drives are certainly superior to hub-drives, so that's another plus.
Can it pedal assist? i.e. only kick on when pedaling. That's often a legal requirement.
Doesn't mention cost, weight, or battery capacity.
I'm assuming most of the parts beyond the aluminum chassis are off the shelf. It would be a nice thing to open source, or at least sell the plans so anybody* can build.
* with access to a machine shop
jandrese
In the video it appears to be only throttle controlled. I have no idea what kind of e-bike regulations India has, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer is "effectively none". Hopefully they won't make the same mistake many other countries did with the pointlessly complicated class system for e-bikes.
SoftTalker
> Can it pedal assist? i.e. only kick on when pedaling.
Looks like it drives the chain, so unless you have a freewheeling front hub pedaling may not be optional.
reubenmorais
I was confused about that. It looks like it drives the chain, but then in the video after installing it or while riding it he's not pedaling.
But then when watching closely, I can see there's a cut in the video between the device being placed on the frame and him testing it and in the cut the entire bottom bracket has been replaced and the chain is now making a different path through the machine, so I assume the bottom bracket needs to also have a freewheel to make it work, plus you'll need a new chain (or to join a couple of chains) to make it fit.
michaelt
The video is a bit strange: https://youtu.be/SFsnS0Yb1Bs?feature=shared&t=96 It appears to show the front sprocket spinning, but the pedals stationary.
I assume this is a "freewheel crank" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_freewheel
jandrese
It does say a 40km range, but ebike range estimates are often highly optimistic.
yeureka
I converted my bike, do 36km per day and still have 40% left after that.
NooneAtAll3
> Mid-drives are certainly superior to hub-drives, so that's another plus.
can you explain the difference for someone who never heard of either?
tln
Mid-drives apply power at the pedal and therefore go through gears, and therefore can go up steeper hills for the power.
Hub drives apply power at the wheel hubs. They are cheaper and smoother (no backlash), so depending on application hub motors may be superior.
Personally I like help up all the hills so mid-drive all the way.
wigglewoggle
Agree, they each have benefits. I broke a chain with my mid drive in winter and really wished I had the redundancy of a hub motor. Also, many many bikes cannot easily fit a mid drive retrofit though I think the diy community isn't as large these days given the variety of ebikes available
zoklet-enjoyer
Their website says it's about $162
monetus
Remember to get a strong frame, as a hub motor can shear a weak frame surprisingly easily. The front fork snapping off in a turn is no fun.
Edit: I said hub motor by accident, but it applies to these motors too.
redfern314
This is an interesting alternative to existing kits where you need to replace a wheel (hub-drive) or do surgery on your bottom bracket (typical mid-drive). It also appears to not need an external charger (the charge port appears to be a universal C14, the same as a computer) which is very convenient.
On the downsides, I have severe doubts over the battery cell quality at that price point, and it looks significantly heavier than other options from the metal case alone (I don't see actual specs for weight).
Love the demo video. The mud and fire scenes made me cringe, which I'm sure is exactly what they were going for (as the motor keeps spinning regardless of the foul treatment)!
I will keep my standard mid-drive conversion kit (I've used TSDZ2 and DM-02 in the past) but always love to see alternatives coming online for other segments of the market.
vq
It reminded me of the Sinclair Zeta[0][1]. I hope their product work out better.
LeoPanthera
Clive Sinclair is mostly remembered for his computers but he was incredibly ahead of his time in the electric vehicle and personal transport industry.
Too ahead of his time, unfortunately, because the battery technology to support his vision just didn't exist, and consumer sentiment wasn't really there yet.
I'm sad he didn't get to see his visions come true.
slackr
https://youtu.be/Hkzreg-m3PY?si=vUMc7mTHEspxIW07 Video includes a tear down
I love everything about the demo video on the homepage. It's always fun to see a creator beat up their product and see it withstand the abuse.
As far as "any bike can be an ebike" I'm surprised that Hilltoppers[0] haven't gained more traction over the years. You just pop off your current bike's front wheel and install theirs.
[0] https://hilltopperbikes.com/product-category/electric-bike-k...