What if no one misses TikTok?
120 comments
·January 18, 2025addicted
mrtksn
This is scary because it also means that every foreign app can be banned and it will be fine in no time.
Foreign in UK, France etc means Twitter, Facebook, Instagram.
The social graph isn’t a big deal if can be forced. People can just find the same people on the new thing. A few days of pain and its all fine, people who get locked out of their accounts or get banned do it all the time.
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daft_pink
It’s totally insane that China can ban all American social networks on security concerns and ban all kinds of just basic speech on their apps, but banning a Chinese social network is so controversial.
wongarsu
China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values
ericmay
Sure but what would that have to do with this action here?
TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders.
Likewise the United States has recognized that this is a serious threat as well and has sought to do the same.
Both countries claim to want to defend their systems of governments so it stands to reason they are just taking reciprocal actions here.
The “free speech” angle is just Chinese propaganda. We stop businesses from operating in the United States all the time and sanction companies and stop them from doing business within our financial network all the time. TikTok is just some random company and we can stop it from doing business here. Free speech isn’t a meaningful discussion point here.
kalleboo
[delayed]
tveita
> the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues.
Yes, speech does that. "The algorithm" is curation but the content we are talking about is mostly Americans talking to other Americans. The goal is to control and suppress that communication.
There are perfectly valid arguments to ban TikTok. And hey, there are arguments to be made that free speech shouldn't be absolute. But that doesn't fit into the American self image, so the argument must be obscured to reduce the dissonance. Your argument in particular maps perfectly to "Some kinds of speech are dangerous and people must be protected from them."
ch4s3
The US also has an enshrined freedom of association, and I personally believe the association rights of those users is being violated.
Moreover it seems like security theater.
throw310822
> the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues.
Which, if true, means that the US has been influencing the rest of the world for the past 20 years through all the other social networks.
crummy
> but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues
Is that the case or is that just assumed what the government means when they say issues of national security? I thought they meant our devices could be hacked by malicious code in TikTok apps.
keybored
> TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders.
The “personal freedom” part would be most immediately salient here.
Free speech wouldn’t apply if the app wasn’t in use already. But so many millions of Americans use the app already that it easily is about free speech as well.
TulliusCicero
This is a trade issue.
If Country A bans imports from Country B, it's entirely reasonable to respond in kind.
hackeraccount
As with trade issue so with this. If Country B bans imports they are actually hurting Country B not Country A.
China infringing on the inalienable rights of Chinese citizens is not a source of strength. It's weakness. It hurts China.
Responding in kind is me responding to my neighbors fire by dousing the living room with gasoline and lighting a match.
ritcgab
Then the US acts like China.
foogazi
How can speech on TikTok be free if TikTok as a platform is not ?
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seanmcdirmid
China’s constitution definitely guarantees both, it even says without exception.
CommanderData
It's freedom of speech until you say bad stuff about Americas 51st state in the middle east that's killing on average 5 children every day with our tax money.
That was not the freedom of speech your supposed to hear on social media. That's why it's a threat. Be like Twitter and ban those accounts instead.
akerl_
There are lots of things that China does that would be controversial in other countries. Why is it totally insane?
tananaev
China banned things for entirely different reasons. They want to control the information they don't like. TikTok is banned so that Chinese government can't do the same thing here and influence a very large percentage of the US population. Not saying they're doing it now, but in general I agree that the potential threat is there. You can already see how big is the social media influence on people, on their political views etc.
Barrin92
> You can already see how big is the social media influence on people, on their political views etc.
If that is the reason for the ban, namely that American citizens cannot discern propaganda from factual information themselves and as a result must have their information shaped for them to achieve or avoid certain political outcomes, then that is quite literally the same reason China has for controlling the information space
No offense but you did basically just say the same thing twice, just with a bit of a patriot-act touch up. China doesn't just ban things they "don't like". What they don't like is exactly what you just lined out
ok123456
Why is that insane? We should lead by example if we value free speech.
ThrowawayR2
Arguing for individual humans to have freedom of speech to express their views is one thing, arguing for mega-corporations (look at the valuation estimates for Tiktok) to have freedom of speech for profit is quite another.
ok123456
They do have freedom of speech—Citizen's United.
The more significant issue is that this is a bill of attainder. The fact that this was prima facia rejected by the courts is an indication that the NatSec state has corroded every branch of government, and we have a zombie government.
Nasrudith
That is like saying we have freedom of speech but it doesn't apply if you are wealthy enough to afford a printing press. It is just a sleight of hand to avoid saying "we really don't".
mupuff1234
So if China would pay $100 a month to every teacher in the US to teach some subversive topic, would that also be ok?
The issue here isn't free speech, but control over what content is promoted, unless you think the CCP has the right to free speech in the US.
Muromec
The moment EU will ban x/itter for the exact same reason it will be all about free speech again.
tzs
> So if China would pay $100 a month to every teacher in the US to teach some subversive topic, would that also be ok?
It would not be OK, but not because it is China. It would not be OK because it is not OK for anyone to do that.
ok123456
Sorry, it is a free speech issue. TikTok is a gestalt product of the content on there.
Maybe Washington should figure out a way to make fewer "Foreign adversaries" so it doesn't have to subvert the fundamental rights of its citizens.
acheong08
"It's insane that China can engage in genocide but engaging in genocide ourselves is so controversial"
This isn't really a good argument. Someone else being horrible isn't grounds to be horrible yourself. There are better arguments for banning TikTok, like protecting the youth from having their brains rotted out.
AznHisoka
Is it really controversial? Maybe there’s just a vocal minority but most people I know simply do not care… granted, I don’t hang out with many young ppl so there’s that..
scarecrowbob
I dunno, it feels pretty normal to be upset when a government which ostensibly represents me does something that I feel is actively against my interests.
I don't think that you have to decry every horrible thing in the world to be upset when folks do things that you don't like to you.
geor9e
According to the youth, it's more about a government censoring what speech their citizens can see. The CCP does it, sure. But America doing it feels new.
UtopiaPunk
Well, not new. But hypocritical, definitely.
seo-speedwagon
TikTok is old news now. Everyone’s joining 小紅書 and getting fully Xi-pilled.
seanmcdirmid
In not sure if used traditional characters for some kind of ironic effect or not.
zht
why write the name in traditional? if you're going to refer to it in another language, why not just write it as 小红书？
aleph_minus_one
> why not just write it as 小红书？
seo-speedwagon wrote (emphasis mine):
"Everyone’s joining 小紅書 and getting fully Xi-pilled."
This shows that seo-speedwagon is opposed to mainland China. Writing the name in traditional characters, which are used in Taiwan, is another barb of seo-speedwagon against mainland China and its government.
icapybara
Maybe they use a traditional character keyboard and don't have a simplified character keyboard set up.
mvdtnz
Better yet why not transliterate it so the rest of us can read the conversation.
icapybara
"Little red book" aka rednote
pinoy420
Because it’s hacker news. You are the out crowd. So sucks to be you.
Absolute insufferable.
REDNote.
wetpaws
[dead]
wumeow
This isn’t exaggeration btw. Gen Z is basically a cooked generation at this point.
spencerflem
Because we don't like what the US government and their corporate overlords are doing?
Trasmatta
Gen Z will have a rude awakening if they think the Chinese government is in anyway better
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addicted
Imagine thinking the U.S. govt and corporate overlords are terrible because they’re banning TikTok and getting back at them by going to a Chinese app. China, the country which has a literal firewall preventing their people from getting information that isn’t vetted, bans nearly every external app because they don’t have control over it, and most ironically, never allowed TikTok, whose banning you think makes the U.S. govt terrible, in China in the first place.
It’s hilarious that all these Redpillers are going on about how they can now communicate with and learn from the Chinese people they’re meeting on Red Book without ever considering why they couldn’t meet those Chinese people on Tik Tok in the first place and coming to the conclusion that this shows that it was the U.S. govt that was bad…
Yeah, the lack of logical thinking in this one instance and your response to it only adds to the evidence that your generation is cooked.
wumeow
Because that’s all you know! You are so myopically focused on every shitty thing that the US has ever done that you’ll believe anything that disparages the US, even when it comes from a foreign power trying to undermine you. For instance:
https://x.com/OrganizerMemes/status/1879723864936370347#m Guess what! You also have to pay for an ambulance in China!
https://x.com/Jingjing_Li/status/1880176802993434698#m Wrong. Americans spend about 12% of their income on groceries and work less than the Chinese on average.
You are not immune to propaganda.
samr71
[flagged]
phoronixrly
Because of the horrible UX of opening up this URL and literally the entire screen being covered by pop-ups... What the actual hell... Porn/warez sites in the 00s were better than this...
ericlamb89
I'm not sure it's the right thing to ban TikTok, but I'm not surprised people aren't protesting in the streets. My feeling is that most people are addicted to these apps, not using them for the utility or pleasure they bring. These users have a deep down sense that they'd be better off without these apps. Instagram won't be banned, but if it were I think there might be a similar non-reaction.
scarecrowbob
That doesn't characterize me or any of the folks I know who use the app.
I know what it feels like to be addicted- I used to drink quite heavily and often.
Why are you theorizing about people you don't know engaging in an activity which is foreign to you?
Can you state some of your media consumption preferences so we can deconstruct them and find their problematic aspects via a struggle session? If you're not up for that, why do you feel like it's okay to try and take that line with other adults?
aimanbenbaha
Exactly. I know people who have TikTok as the lifeline of their business and they're rightfully pissed off that it's taken from them on a whim.
Wowfunhappy
> My feeling is that most people are addicted to these apps, not using them for the utility or pleasure they bring.
...I find it interesting to think about whether using something due to addiction means you wouldn't protest if it's forcibly taken away.
In other words, I wonder if people would protest if cigarettes were banned.
wongarsu
If anything, I'd expect addicts to fight the hardest when someone takes their "drug" away
UtopiaPunk
Well, the USA did ban alcohol for a few years, and that was a rowdy time.
nozzlegear
I think replacing cigarettes with vapes is more topical, at least in America.
drivingmenuts
Not many people would protest a cigarette ban because the effects of smoking are very visible.
Not many people will protest a TikTok ban because it's largely happening to someone else and not very many people care about issues of free speech, as long as it's not happening to them.
krapp
The smokers' rights movement is a thing, and they do protest, yes.
krapp
>My feeling is that most people are addicted to these apps, not using them for the utility or pleasure they bring.
What if most people aren't addicted to them, and do simply find them useful and entertaining, and the hyperbole and discourse about how dangerous and addictive social media and "algorithms" are is a means to manufacture consent for the government regulating and controlling free speech?
What if it's a bigger problem that all the government has to do is gesture vaguely in the direction of China and many people will just roll over?
ritcgab
If TikTok creators can move to any another platforms and make profit at the same level, I am sure no one will miss TikTok.
Is that the case though?
UtopiaPunk
I think TikTok is a negative influence on society, but not for any reasons that have to do with China really. I'd be much happier if the gov took strict actions on social media generally.
It doesn't really make much "sense," of course. I'm just day dreaming. I find the USA gov and the Chinese gov to both be pretty evil. The other social media gets to stay, though, because they are all in the USA.
Obviously banning TikTok or other social media gets into free speech violation territory. But if I could just wave my magic wand and make things that I think are bad go away, I'd ban the whole lot
etblg
> The other social media gets to stay, though, because they are all in the USA.
And for two of the biggest social media companies specifically, they'd get to stay anyway because they're paying off the POTUS.
TrackerFF
Ever since I started using social media platforms, some 22 years ago, I've been through six platforms. Those platforms were once teeming with life, but eventually got shut down, bought out, or just died a natural death. Every time people were up in arms, but eventually migrated somewhere else.
People will use something else.
wongarsu
But just because people migrate somewhere else doesn't mean they don't miss those old platforms. Many of these old platforms had unique aspects that were never quite replicated in later platforms
adra
Member berries when the internet was hip and cool and UUCP was the only game in town, and everyone was a wonderfully insightful ray if sunshine? Yeah, me neither.
foogazi
Creators will miss it ?
Billions of humans have managed to live out their lives without short form video and will be OK
sofayam
Either it is a guilty pleasure and you are secretly relieved that the temptation is being removed. Or prolonged use of the service has turned you into an apathetic apolitical blob of mindless jelly with no agency and no energy to effect change on your environment.
kevinventullo
Apolitical is an interesting choice of description. My understanding is that the real motivation of banning TikTok is precisely the political influence it wields on the youth’s malleable minds.
Leary
https://www.tiktok.com/@storytimewithpapajake/video/74609880...
This 102 year old American veteran who fought in WW2 sure will miss it.
null
India banned TikTok and a whole host of other Chinese apps and after a few days of moaning they moved completely on. So the evidence indicates that no one will actually care. And TikTok is even less sticky than say Twitter. TikTok isn’t about the relationship graph you painstakingly built. It’s about the algorithm and the FYP it populates. That can be recreated instantly. Moving away from Twitter was hard because one had to painstakingly recreate their followers list. But moving from TikTok is trivial as long as the new alternative provides enough automatically delivered entertainment.