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TikTok preparing for U.S. shut-off on Sunday

jdlyga

"I would literally write my social security number on a sticky note and stick it to Xi Jinping's forehead than go back to using Instagram Reels"

I saw this yesterday and it's hilarious but this is the feeling right now. TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness and Instagram is so phony and overly perfect (not to mention ads and so many bots and spam). It's like shutting down Reddit and telling everyone to go to LinkedIn.

bearjaws

> TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness

I must live in another universe because it all feels fake.

winternett

As someone who's been on TikTok for years now, it's extremely fake, the algorithm is a total ruse, as most of what trends is based on seeing news stories repeated hundreds of times, and most other content has the same repetitive music behind it... Far too much repetition and subtle seminaries in trending content, down to the way videos are color graded to be honestly real & organic... I've had a few videos go viral, but most things that do go viral are memes, the minute you want to push out anything remotely serious or related to business, they want money to let it pass the visibility gate.

I won't miss it if it does get banned. It's stressed so many people out for no good reason, and sucked up millions of hours of free labor from unrecognized & unpaid creators that deserve better.

That doesn't mean that any Meta product is good for content creators mind you.

__alias

what types of videos have made that have gone viral?

mhh__

The algorithm is genuinely very good. That's why I deleted it.

It's very addictive and not always just shoveling slop.

I don't know if I can do it justice but there's something genuinely quite fresh about the AI stuff I see every now and again e.g. Anna from the red scare podcast shilling industrial glycine was a meme for a while. Very Land-ian. Neo-china...

whateveracct

It's a proper Skinner box. Very well made. And in millions of people's pockets too.

nonrandomstring

  """ Within such a possible future system, the only command or need
  that the machine would not respond to would be the one command that
  I have a feeling some of us would most want to type into the
  machine. Which is the demand that it destroy itself, you see, that
  would be my problem with the machine. It would meet all the needs
  except my need to see it destroyed. It would take every other
  command well, and meet every other need well, but the need to just
  to just shut it down. Television is something like that now.

  I feel sometimes as though I am plugged into a giant computer that
  will take every command I give it except the one that I want the
  most. The command that the damn machine blow itself up. It will do
  anything else I say. I type in "food", and out comes food. I type in
  "I want to give this talk in Washington". It comes out.  But the one
  command I want is the command for the damn thing to just go "boom!",
  and all the little transistors just to go... """

  Rick Roderick 1990

Grimblewald

the tiktok algo is genuinely impressive. What's cool is that the engineers published some works explaining how it functions.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2209.07663

It's an interesting read if you're into recommender systems or AI in general. What amazes me is that despite this published work google and meta still can't produce a decent social media algorithm, so it's either incompetence or malice.

jagermo

same here. I found myself loosing an hour of just scrolling through short videos, most of them really good and ones that I liked. I had to delete the app because it was working too good.

thorum

Your perception of TikTok likely depends on your TikTok for you page. If you spend time cultivating it, the algorithm will learn you like authenticity and show you more of it.

This seems to be less true on YouTube and Reels unfortunately.

Salgat

The algorithm will spoonfeed you content that you perceive a certain way, whether that's true or not is a different story. Unfortunately for most people, all those hilarious situations that are not-so-obviously staged just fly over their heads as genuine. My wife is smart and well educated, but I even had to keep correcting her when she showed me videos that she believed were genuine.

munificent

> the algorithm will learn you like authenticity and show you more of it.

Jesus, this is like a line out of a William Gibson novel. I hope you wrote that aware of the irony inherent in it.

I'm also reminded of this George Burns quote: "The key to success is sincerity. If you can fake that you've got it made."

gunian

the TikTok reocmmendation engine seemed to work better with a sparse history and better understood user feedback about content that one wants to see or avoid

Instagram tbh just feels icky but at least you can explicitly like or dislike stuff not that it would fix the feed though

YT shorts is also good but I hate you can't say show me this or do not show me that and it is all based on duration. idk what the powers that be at YT were thinking but I'm sure they did user studies and stuff

so much for free market economics though stuck with two imperfect options because Zuck couldn't fix the feed :(

furyofantares

I had cultivated a FYP that felt authentic to me, especially relative to everything else on the internet, but after a while it looked just as phony to my eyes, without any real change in the content itself. Just a different brand of phony.

theshrike79

Just did a test, opened up TikTok

1) a guy telling me in my native language (not english) how to spot phishing scams 2) another guy doing a short video about how much you need to invest to retire in my native language 3) Donald's AG not answering simple questions directly 4) video about 2CV ice racing where people leisurely drive old Citroens 5) A skit by an Australian dude who has a wall full of Milwaukee tools

Instagram Reels

1) A couple doing a very much scripted skit 2) A stolen clip from an old 90s sitcom 3) one-liner joke 4) A dude farting 5) A homophobic "joke" video

Youtube Shorts

1) pro skier made up to look old doing tricks on the slope 2) A couple I don't know showing what they looked like in 1988 3) A skit by a couple 4) One of those weird youtube-only dating channels reposting a clip of their stuff 5) Americans not knowing how to drive on icy roads in 2022

The quality difference is so clear that it's not even funny. In my experience all of the good content in Reels is just reposted/stolen TikTok content. Shorts has the same or snippets of bigger YT videos.

FB Reels is so bad I don't even want to give them the engagement metrics.

wholinator2

Tiktok is serving you better things because

1) more people post there 2) you've used it much more and given them huge amounts of data on who you are and what your like to watch, when.

I can assure you those tiktok things are not the top of everyone's feed, sounds personalized. But your list for reels, and the other one sounds like the basic things they show to new people to try to figure out what they like, possibly somewhat curated by some past swipes.

Each of these are just algorithms. They get better the more you use them because your use = your data and personality and you've just used tiktok enough that they know _exactly_ what you like and who you are. Give it time, the others will come along if people use them

stouset

Have you considered that Reels is so bad precisely because you don’t use it?

Mine:

A bit from the SF Chronicle on the LA fires. A comedy/info bit by Alex Falcone. An Ad. A wrestling technique (I’m into judo and BJJ). A card trick. Cooking techniques. An ad.

It’s ad-heavy and frankly I don’t try to spend a lot of time on it. But as somebody who uses it at least some, I get absolutely zero of the kind of garbage you suggest.

adamrezich

My wife hates it when I don't enjoy the TikTok videos she sends me, because it's very easy for me to tell how staged and fake they are. She, on the other hand, neither notices nor cares.

This would be concerning, if I didn't know that this way of thinking was incredibly common these days—instead, it's mildly terrifying.

johnisgood

I enjoy movies, even though they are staged.

fullshark

It's where the young kids who don't know any better overshare. Instagram is where the perfectly manicured young adults put out a phony facade to make their money.

snoman

Hm. I’m a grown man and I post reels to all the platforms. I like the tech and enjoy trying to emulate a professional process with prosumer equipment and practices (filming, editing, color grading, sound design, etc.).

After about 30 or so reels this year, I’ve got about 70 followers - half of which are definitely bots, a third are family/friends, and the rest seem to be real people.

My feed has a lot of people like me, and people whose content I think is at the quality I’d like to be at (mostly photographers, videographers, small but full-time YouTubers).

Maybe you’re just finding what you’re looking for.

t-writescode

My TikTok feed is full of very much adults and who own small businesses. I’ve seen some people in college, but there’s no kids in my feeds.

null

[deleted]

nottorp

All the major social networking things are fake, no matter how they feel to one particular user.

However, the US seems to ban only the options where it's not US companies making money off their users...

curt15

It's commensurate with how China treats foreign companies. Nobody can do serious business in China without the CCP's blessing, often involving a "partnership" with a local company.

robrtsql

I don't know if I would characterize TikTok as 'authentic' first and foremost, but it's a platform where real people go to perform. When I scrolled TikTok, I would often get poorly-shot videos from average folks trying to put their spin on the day's joke format, or reacting to that day's outrage. It was junk food, but at least somewhat 'real'.

My Reels feed, on the other hand, is 100% bot drivel. It's all stolen viral videos by artificially-boosted accounts, and the comments appear to be fake comments that were 'paid for'. I assume there must be some sort of financial incentive to gaming the system this way.

The end result is that TikTok feels like scrolling through (attention-grabbing, reactionary) stuff by real people, and Reels feels like scrolling through some sort of bot wasteland.

I guess I should add that, due to its size, TikTok almost certainly also has a bot problem, but if it does it's not as clearly evident in a way that is detrimental to the platform.

alex1138

I genuinely have no idea what Zuckerberg is responsible for at Facebook other than hijacking credentials (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4151433) and stealing/copying ideas

Anyone with half a brain ought to have come up with a better system than Reels is

kyle_grove

I would use the word 'fresh' for TikTok; like old school YouTube, there's quirkiness and variety.

cvoss

The US gov's intention was not at all to shut down TikTok. It was to force ByteDance to sell it.

The fact that ByteDance is opting for a shutdown instead is a huge PR stunt, and their unwillingness to sell under the circumstances kinda proves their whole First Amendment claims are made in bad faith. Something deeper is going on, and it's not about your social security number.

wyldberry

This isn't rocket science. What's going on is having the keys to the kingdom with regards to serving videos to influence the mind of a user with extremely precise targeting.

China doesn't want USA doing that, and banned their social media. USA doesn't want China doing it because they've been doing it all over the world to everybody since Radio Free Europe, and likely before.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Radio-Free-Europe

georgeecollins

Lots of countries have made it illegal to listen things like Radio Free Europe. I'm guessing you can't in North Korea. On the other hand, a US citizen that wants to get the Chinese perspective on anything has lots of ways to legally find that and repeat it. I am not saying a lot of people in the US are interested in a foreign point of view, or that the US doesn't have tons of propaganda. But I don't think you can convince anyone that the two countries treat speech the same way.

op00to

Radio Free Europe is nothing like TikTok. Not only is broadcast media not able to be pinpoint targeted in real time to individuals, but the connection of who was behind RFE and other similar propaganda is pretty obvious, unlike tiktok.

myvoiceismypass

Feels a little bit like the Chinpokomon episode of South Park - innocent kids being brainwashed and whatnot. (I know the target in that ep is Japan, but still)

narrator

I think that China is working to control left-wing activism in the U.S and TikTok is the perfect trojan horse to split the Democratic party and elevate their bribed proxies. I'd rather not go into how they're doing it, but certainly massive focus on the Gaza war in TikTok did do a number on the unity of the Democratic party.

Speaking of China influence I keep getting these stories on my social media feeds: Isn't this overpass, road, or this building, or this city in with lots of LED lights in China just great? China is the future, and so on!

drawkward

...except that the "extremely precise targeting" is a new thing.

lelandfe

If you feel that the national security angle is a farce, do you similarly feel that the DoD banning TikTok on government systems was just for show? https://defensescoop.com/2023/06/02/pentagon-proposes-rule-t...

mmmpetrichor

The DoD banning an app on their network is a lot different than banning it competely in the US. I would think DoD should ban most apps connecting to their networks that aren't work related. I feel this whole effort is either in bad faith or isn't being transparently communicated to the public.

RestlessMind

NatSec should not even be needed. A simpler reason could be that China bans foreign social media apps from operating in China, so Chinese apps should be treated as such.

nashashmi

It was not for show. It acknowledged its success and was to limit its success. Then limit it as a "potential" vector for intrusion. Kaspersky was removed from the US on the same basis.

culi

most bases still block twitter, facebook, flickr, etc too

https://www.wired.com/2009/06/despite-army-order-some-bases-...

kome

well, probably yes

whimsicalism

i think there are obvious reasons why bytedance would not want to spawn a US-based competitor and why a US only social media network would be ineffective.

this is exactly the same as what China does with their gfw, they allow american apps to divest and be owned by a chinese company.

suraci

Wrong

1. China asked American SNS companys to 'obey Chinese laws', which mostly refer to content control and data ownership, these companys refused, China didn'tforced them to sell 2. Are you sure to play the 'same as what China does'? hey, we are a totalitarian, authoritarian, dictatorial regime, are we same? think twice

s1artibartfast

Social media is the front line of an ongoing cyber war. It is a matter of propaganda and social engineering.

Imagine if Japan owned all the newspapers in the run-up to WWII.

That's not to say China is the only one with propaganda.

crystal_revenge

It's unfortunate that this comment is buried so deep and that generally this topic is under discussed.

Media has always been a force for controlling popular opinion, but in the age of social media it's going to new extremes. There are forces that try to control how you see the world on all social media platforms and do so to attempt to shape your opinions of the world and modify your actions.

You can visibly see Reddit has been completely taken over by bot, shills, and other controlled accounts. There is no sincere, real human opinion posted on the front page.

Even HN is not immune. "Bad news" has long been forbidden here, and there is a range of topics that, even when heavily upvoted by the community, tend to disappear within minutes.

whycome

The US owned all the newspapers in the run-up to Iraq war II…

mike50

Imagine if one company owned all the local news papers and replaced all the content with wire stories and the lowest quality local content or a fox news like company bough local news to run a propaganda operation. Oh wait that's real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gannett

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_Broadcast_Group

ramblenode

"Imagine if a handful of ultra-billionaires controlled almost all social media in the US." doesn't feel less threatening. The fact that Congress doesn't consider this a problem feels like the bigger problem.

esafak

It reminds me of Google's decision to pull out of China instead of censor their results.

hbosch

>The fact that ByteDance is opting for a shutdown instead is a huge PR stunt

Um, what? There is zero chance that ByteDance could get a fair price for TikTok. VC calculations can be disregarded, TikTok as a platform is more valuable than Facebook. How much money would it take for Zuckerberg to sell FB to a Chinese company?

crimsoneer

I mean, the Chinese government was never going to let the US just take their company at bargain basement prices.

cg5280

Didn't something similar happen with Grindr? It was Chinese owned and sold without nearly as much excitement. Given the inevitable bidding war from multiple interested parties I would be surprised if they couldn't get a fair price for TikTok

redactd

Do you think that ByteDance is primarily concerned with the economic considerations for TikTok, or do you think that it is something else?

Do you think that there is a price at which they would be willing to sell it?

moduspol

It wouldn't have been at a bargain basement price if they started trying to sell it when the law passed. It could have been the highest market price they could get from the US's largest buyers.

Obviously they don't have the same leverage when they're otherwise going to be shut off in a few days.

patmcc

I think this is untrue. The government wanted to shut down TikTok, but it can't just outright ban it because that's a clear violation of the first amendment, so it came up with a way to ban it indirectly. That was their intention all along.

GuB-42

> I would literally write my social security number on a sticky note and stick it to Xi Jinping's forehead

Somewhat paradoxically, I am actually more comfortable giving out private data to foreign countries than my own. I mean, what is Xi Jinping going to do with a US social security number? If I am in the US, it will be hard for bad people in China to reach me, because there is a border between the two countries, in every sense of the word. There is no such protection if me and my data are both in the same country.

Xi Jinping can have my social security number, in fact, he can have my whole life, it is not like he is going to do anything to an random guy who lives in a foreign country. I will definitely won't give these data to a neighbor I barely know because my neighbor can do something I don't want him to do with it and may find some motivation to do so.

munificent

Are you aware that almost all of the scam calls, phishing emails, and other attempts to separate you from the currency in your bank account arise from outside of the US?

Economic globalization means there are no borders and it's up to corporations to protect the sovereignty of their users. You can imagine how well they are up to that task.

culi

it's still much harder for overseas scams to succeed against someone who's tech savvy vs domestic identity fraud. There's simply a lot more barriers to moving money outside of the country

> Economic globalization means there are no borders and it's up to corporations to protect the sovereignty of their users

Historically speaking this is actually the opposite. Many critics of globalization have pointed out that you can directly track trade deals to massive spikes in border funding, much stronger enforcement of intellectual property laws, etc. Research actually shows a huge decrease in the dissemination of ideas, language, etc across borders where trade deals have been enacted. Paradoxically, globalization has made us more siloed off from each other

pixl97

This is a rather poor take. Individually it's "probably" not much, but when you start putting the data together in bulk you have a social network graph of huge parts of an entire country. That and everything they like and probably work on. If you can get things like location data, then you can figure out what entire companies are doing. You can get insight into secret projects. You can figure out what small companies/contractors to install moles in.

It is literally the biggest spy data gold mine on earth.

neither_color

It's infinitely worse for someone abroad to have your SS because it is worth it for them to try for several days to scam you for just a few dozen dollars. There's an entire industry of scam farms run in Cambodia by CH gangs.

pjc50

Exactly. There are people deleting menstrual tracker apps in the US because the information might be used against them by law enforcement. But what's the risk to them of the Chinese government having that? Other than turning it over to the US authorities, of course.

pjc50

Funnily enough, the lawyer who quit Meta has resorted to doomposting on .. Linkedin. https://news.bloomberglaw.com/ip-law/meta-lawyer-lemley-quit...

kpennell

My tiktok feed was night and day better compared to IG reels. IG reels is simply attrocious memes. Like the same recycled crap over and over again. Where my tiktok feed always felt fresh. Makes me embarrassed that Zuck and co can't make the feed better. I thought this was America!

madeofpalk

> TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness and Instagram is so phony and overly perfect

They're very different, and I understand what you're getting at comparing it to the hyper-manufactured perfectly glossy Instagram culture, but I wouldn't call TikTok 'authentic'.

Of course, Tiktok is large and there's many different subcultures there, but overall I think TikTok is heavily drenched in Irony. It's a stark difference to the very fake Instagram, but that doesn't make it authentic.

Are tiktok dances 'authentic'? They might have started as just innocent kids doing a fun little dance, but the moment anything turns into a trend I think it loses authenticity. The whole NPC live streaming trend[1] from a few years ago was anything but authentic. TikTok 'suffers' from the exact same paid 'influencers' promoting whatever garbage of the day, and even has its own version of affiliate marking spam with 'TikTok shop' junk.

[1]: https://theconversation.com/people-are-pretending-to-be-npcs...

aimanbenbaha

You said a lot of words that are a litmus test proving you almost never use TikTok nowadays. First of all this is not 2020 anymore, you're 5 years late if you think TikTok is still filled with "dances". "Paid influencers" mean nothing in TikTok since everyone has an equal voice and equal shot at virality, see you're still seeing it from the lens of Instagram here.

The NPC live streaming is weird yeah but you cherry picked a trend and then make it about all TikTok. Literally hundreds of trends spawn up in TikTok every month and some of them are damn more authentic than whatever happens in IG reels. Some of the successful original trends even pick up in Instagram or YouTube.

madeofpalk

I use tiktok every day. Maybe I don't know what 'authentic' means, but I don't think most content on tiktok is authentic. I think it is a particular type of fitting to an ideal or trend.

gardenhedge

> Equal shot at virality

What makes you think that? The process is not open and fully controlled by the company running the show

Grimblewald

yes but those types stick to live and tiktok lets you completely remove live from your feed. In fact if i don't want to see joe rogan, peterson, or other such horsemen of the misinformation apocalypse outside of live, I can make that decision on tiktok in a meaningful way. I can actually remove that content from my feed. Good luck getting that to work on youtube or instagram. You'll get that content if you like it or not. Good luck blocking all the random alphanumeric account names posting the deluge of that kind of content, reels / youtube shorts will force feed it to you anyway, no matter what you do.

dartos

> TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness

Yknow creators get paid _by tiktok_ to do natural ad placement in their videos?

It’s just as fake as everything else, if not more so.

nonethewiser

> I saw this yesterday and it's hilarious but this is the feeling right now. TikTok has such a culture of authenticity and realness

Exhibit A for banning tiktok right here

pjc50

The migration app of choice appears to be .. xiaohongshu, or "little red book". I'm guessing this won't last since it wasn't intended to have lots of Westerners using it and neither government is going to be happy with that scale of unfiltered contact between ordinary Chinese citizens and US citizens.

In the meantime, it's the place for Luigi Mangione memes.

dang

Related ongoing thread (though not much there yet):

‘TikTok refugees’ flock to China's RedNote - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42709236

metacritic12

for those curious why an app would name itself Little Red Book despite the association, obviously they could have been better about the naming, but they're actually not the same name in either language:

The social media app Xiaohongshu (小红书) does literally translate to "little red book" in English. However, this is completely different from Mao's famous work, which was never called this in Chinese. Mao's book was informally known as "Hongbaoshu" (红宝书) meaning "red treasured book" and formally titled "Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong" (毛主席语录).

The apparent connection in English comes from translators using "Little Red Book" for both terms (maybe due to training or an agenda? who knows, choosing word-by-word translation for one and popular translation for another), even though they're distinct and unrelated in the original Chinese, and of course in the official desired English "RedNote" too.

porphyra

On Wikipedia, it says he chose red because:

> The Chinese name was inspired by two pivotal institutions in its co-founder Charlwin Mao's career journey that both feature red as their primary color: Bain & Company, where he worked as a consultant, and Stanford Graduate School of Business, where he earned his MBA.

I would guess that the association to Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong was intentional but he just said that for plausible deniability.

gastlygem

As a native Chinese I can assure you 小红书 and 红宝书 are as close semantically to each other as the words constipation and constitution. Few would relate those two.

Even the most leftist Chinese entrepreneurs avoid having their brand names associated to politics; it's just common sense.

bryananderson

Maoism-Bainism with Stanford characteristics

seryoiupfurds

> I would guess that the association to Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong was intentional but he just said that for plausible deniability.

Yeah, I mean "Every Chinese citizen has a Little Red Book in their pocket!" is pretty compelling for a social media app.

It's not necessarily political beyond that, but the connection is obviously there.

DiggyJohnson

Reality is stranger than fiction. That’s the reason I would expect to be reported by The Onion aha

carabiner

Chinese in general love the color red, and the number 8. Luck, wealth, love connotations.

seryoiupfurds

However, for any Chinese people who also know English, the association is obvious.

I asked an actual Chinese person about 小红书 and they assumed I was talking about Mao's book until I clarified.

crystal_revenge

> an actual Chinese person

None of the "actual" Chinese people I know were confused about the terminology. The average Chinese does not care one lick about anything related to communism or the history of communism in this country. Mao's book is largely a relic of their great (or even great) grand parents age.

However most of my Chinese friends were confused about why something that most Chinese find to be a relatively uninteresting app in mainland China is suddenly so popular in the US.

It's also worth pointing out that this isn't some serendipitous accident, 小红书 has been working to become a TikTok replacement for awhile now.

glurblur

I don't know which Chinese person you are talking about. I've never associated 小红书 with whatever Mao did back in the day. Hell, I don't think anyone I know made that connection. I only get that idea after watching a video made by a youtuber, who's not Chinese.

segasaturn

The way people are talking about the name of the app feels very stupid to me, in a way I can't put my finger on. I guess it smacks of more Red Scare paranoia, trying to tie anything Chinese to scary, nefarious communists. I doubt that they were thinking of Mao at all when making the app, Xiaohongshu is an app tailored for young, wealthy, cosmopolitan Chinese as an alternative to Douyin which is more for the masses, I wouldn't call that very Maoist.

Aunche

Antiestablishment-types supporting an ideology like Maoism is at least something I can understand. Antiestablishment-types expressing their loyalty to the establishment of a foreign adversary is significantly more concerning.

8note

it probably isnt, and is just a random name, but it feels like the name is a joke about the red scare

nonethewiser

> The way people are talking about the name of the app feels very stupid to me, in a way I can't put my finger on. I guess it smacks of more Red Scare paranoia.

Is it paranoia if Mao Zedong is still revered? If the government is the communist party? I realize the CCP is not perfectly communist in many ways but they are unapologetic about communism and their roots.

It is a coincidence that the original work did not mean little red book. But thats how it was translated, and the translation of the app is correct. So obviously now when you have the same name coming from a country that doesn't denounce communism I think it's fair to be concerned about communist influence.

atkailash

[dead]

bllguo

..did you only learn chinese academically or something? anyone in china would think of Mao if you said 小红书 (well, at least before the app)

fencepost

So they're moving to a video site named "Red" plus a four-letter word?

TikTok, you've changed! But maybe not that much.

tcmart14

I can't believe TikTok is not just getting around this by using the philosophy many people use when they are forced to change passwords. Just add an "!". TikTok: "We arn't TikTok, we are now TikTok!"

slightwinder

In English, it seems to be called rednote. But I doubt that it will be a real successor. At the moment it's a funny meme, and for some people satisfied cultural curiosity. But we already see the problems appearing, from the poorly localized interface, to people getting banned for reasons outside their understanding.

My guess is, at the end we will see maybe some million users from the USA and some more millions from around the world moving to this app, and maybe bringing a new interaction between the countries, but the majority will end up somewhere else.

kenjackson

My kids in HS and their friends all downloaded “Red Note” this week. I said “what about Reels?” — “That’s for you and mom”.

Imustaskforhelp

Well technically I am in high school and Neither have you used ever instagram (okay maybe for that one time , I wanted to propose to my crush , (turns out she didn't have insta , so I had to talk to her friend asking her on my behalf where they said no [aww man])

and I live in India , so tiktok's banned. There are many indian alternatives to tiktok's that I have seen , But rednote being chinese just makes me wonder if its gonna survive.

Y'know things are just different yet so the same. The same fomo happened during the facebook time is now happening with red note.

“History doesn’t repeat itself but it often rhymes,” as Mark Twain is often reputed to have said. (I’ve found no compelling evidence that he ever uttered that nifty aphorism. No matter — the line is too good to resist.) (source https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/01/12/history-rhymes/)

PhunkyPhil

That's surprising to me. I'm 23 and Reels is, as far as I was aware, a big complimentary app to TikTok in my generation. To frame it as a Reel I saw;

"TikTok is vape and Reels are cigarettes".

TikTok's algorithm is _super_ curated and targeted, like a Mr. Beast video. Instagram's is pretty good but if you can get your algorithm to the brainrot cluster with everyone else then you'll get a lot of out-of-left-field, grungier content you might not find on TikTok.

I think once RedNote gets banned or the meme fades people will mainly flock to IG. There's still a void of creator based features that IG can't fill, so maybe a competitor will pop up if IG can't replicate the environment well enough.

dragonelite

Pretty much Insta/X is for genx and millennials, Facebook is for the boomer gen. Tiktok was for zoomers, when i was a teen till like 23 i hated being on the same cringe ass social media platform as my mom. Another teen trait is rebellion.

0xEF

I use none of these things and that still hurts more than it should.

tivert

> In English, it seems to be called rednote.

I know someone who speaks Chinese and uses that app. The name in Chinese Xiaohongshu clearly translates to "Little Red Book," and they're confused how anyone got "Red Note" out of it.

> My guess is, at the end we will see maybe some million users from the USA and some more millions from around the world moving to this app, and maybe bringing a new interaction between the countries, but the majority will end up somewhere else.

If that happens, Little Red Book will trigger exactly the same law that's banning TikTok.

zamadatix

> and they're confused how anyone got "Red Note" out of it

"Little Red Book" is the literal translation of the original name but that's not the only way companies approach global markets, especially with longer to say names. It looks like they sometimes use "REDNote" (as it appears in App Stores), "RedNote", and sometimes just "RED" depending on the context (e.g. their advertisement/promotional email address is red.ad@xiaohongshu.com).

As to how they got there with it? "Little Red Book" is just an awkward mouthful to refer to compared to the alternative forms they used.

sitkack

What law is that exactly?

"Protecting Americans’ Data From Foreign Adversaries Act of 2024"

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7520...

https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr7520/BILLS-118hr7520eh....

One could argue, and I think with a strong case that if this law applies to TikTok, it would also apply to Twitter (Saudi investment) and Snapchat (also Saudi investment).

johnchristopher

> > In English, it seems to be called rednote.

> I know someone who speaks Chinese and uses that app. The name in Chinese Xiaohongshu clearly translates to "Little Red Book," and they're confused how anyone got "Red Note" out of it.

I'll tell you a funny one like that in another language:

Instagram reels are well... short-form videos usually with music/audio and effects.

It's pronounced something like "real" but longer.

Anyway, in French that word "reel" is printed the same but since most people don't practice spoken English it's read and pronounced "réel". Something like ray-hell (notice the é). And it annoys me to no eeeend :D.

So, among French-speaking community management crews and social network teams you hear "réel"/ray-hell all the time instead of "reel".

And how do you translate "réel" into English ? You guessed it: it's "real".

enragedcacti

> and they're confused how anyone got "Red Note" out of it.

It's actually just what it's called in the US app stores: "REDnote—小红书国际版"

jackliuhahaha

Little red book means something different in 1970s China. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotations_from_Chairman_Mao_T...

People are trying to do away with that association, but it still boggles my mind why the app is called LRB in the first place.

metacritic12

Yeah but "little red book" (xiaohongshu) in mandarin is not actually how the original Mao Little Red Book is called in Mandarin, either formally or informally. Informally in mandarin it's called hongbaoshu (literally "red cover book" and formally, as you can imagine, is like Quotes from Chairman Mao).

So this is a case of translators with an agenda translating two phrases with different original mandarin renditions (hongbaoshu and xiaohongshu), and picking and choosing the style of translation (base on usage vs based on character) to get the English translation to merge both of them as "Little Red Book".

slightwinder

> If that happens, Little Red Book will trigger exactly the same law that's banning TikTok.

We will see, but I would think if they gain 2-5 Million Users, it wouldn't but of much concern for the feds. Unless they gain access to a specific vulnerable group.

pishpash

Because the posts are called notes and the book is a notebook, capiche?

Zigurd

Tiktok is buggy, lacks undo in obvious places, and has seemingly random transient UI changes. Nobody cares.

Rednote could be a fad that fades, but technical problems won't be decisive.

donatj

As a casual observer, I don't understand why YouTube Shorts isn't the obvious successor? The UI is better than TikTok ever was and a lot of the most popular creators are already mirroring their content there?

phobotics

Shorts has a way worse algorithm, I don’t use TikTok because it’s too addictive but I get bored of YouTube shorts after like 5-10mins most times, which actually for me is a Feature but for YouTube itself is a drawback.

derbOac

Not disagreeing with you as TikTok obviously works for a lot of people, but its recommendation algorithm never came anywhere near working for me after several attempts at it over fairly long periods of time.

I can't say I like YouTube shorts a lot, but there's often some I find interesting in a long enough window of time — the problem there is more the signal to noise ratio than the volume of the signal. TikTok just feels like my personal signal is just nonexistent.

Sometimes I wish I knew what was going on under the hood. There's such a huge difference between how much people like TikTok and how I feel about the content, and I don't understand why TikTok would have such a hard time with me in particular.

In general I'm kind of souring on algorithmic-driven social media, or at least short format (video or text). I don't have anything against it in principle, I just find I enjoy longer format posts and articles more in experience.

cjrp

Same with Instagram Reels. Occasionally I'd be scrolling going "man my Tiktok feed is bad today", and then I realise it's IG.

spixy

5-10mins seems like a perfect algorithm to me.

If you have more time, then you can watch normal youtube videos or TV shows...

Andrex

It's strange to me everyone acting as like TikTok's algorithm is completely unassailable and will always be better than the competition for years and decades to come. Tech moves fast and Meta/YT aren't just standing around.

If their only differentiating feature is the algorithm, Insta would eat them for lunch eventually the same they did for Snapchat after knocking off that app's big/only claim to fame (stories).

The discussion seems to be TikTok's algorithm is so good no one could ever possibly compete. I really don't think that's the case and TikTok really has no moat whatsoever.

polytely

there are so many low quality shorts, really makes it feel like a waste of time. never had that feeling on tiktok

donatj

It doesn't need to be better than TikTok though, just better than xiaohongshu

pjc50

A large part of it is obviously negative polarization: you tell people they can't use a Chinese app, they're going to use a different Chinese app. Hence the pictures of Luigi.

It's worth asking why Reels/Shorts didn't take off and those companies had to ask for their competition to be banned instead. Everyone agrees that "the algorithm is better", but this is very hard to quantify. Perhaps something about surfacing smaller creators? Quantity/quality of invasive advertising? Extent to which people feel particular kinds of rage content is being forced on them?

weinzierl

Main reason besides the algorithm is in my opinion that TikTok has wide but hard boundaries when it comes to content. This leads to diverse but relatively safe content.

It is not 4chan where you think twice before clicking a link to avoid emotional damage. It is also not Reddit or Youtube where you do not bother to go because you permanently encounter stuff that is inconsequentially blocked and you are still not safe from trauma. I think most platforms other than TikTok try to be too strict, fail to enforce their unrealistic rules in any comprehensible form and therefore suck for most intellectually curious users.

whimsicalism

reels cannot seem to give me anything other than America’s funniest home videos style content and thirst traps, while on tiktok I get critical analysis of todays events, planet money-esque content, discussion of analytic philosophers i’m interested in, etc. it’s truly no contest.

Reels just wants to basically treat me as a generic male with some bias towards what my social graph likes. I also hate that my likes are public on reels.

e: not sure why this is downvoted, just trying to provide color to an earnest question

suraci

I've never saw Luigi or Aaron Bushnell suggested to me by YouTube, unless I search them

I think that's why, just saying

null

[deleted]

eunos

Rednote and TikTok has 'novelty' content type that originally cultivated in mainland China. The memes, reactions pic, etc don't really exist on reels/shorts.

palata

I don't use TikTok, but my understanding is that they are just a lot better than anyone else with the algorithm. Somehow where Meta built a social graph, TikTok built a graph of videos (no need to know who you are, they can just suggest videos based on other videos you watch). And it's apparently difficult to catch up (presumably because they have more users so more data to make better predictions).

That would, IMO, explain why people use TikTok and not something else.

As to where they go after TikTok is banned... I feel like there is also a factor of "Oh you want to ban chinese apps? Let me show you". Not sure whether it will last, though.

donatj

I'm skeptical that the algorithm is actually "better" and it's not just that the end users have fed TikTok a ton more data points about their personal likes and dislikes.

Of course an app you have used for thousands of hours is going to know you better than the one you tried for half an hour

nytesky

I suspect that the algorithm is taking in inputs that maybe we don’t consider. Not just swipes or likes, but maybe even how still the phone is while you watch it or if you blink less, signs you’re more focused on the video. Maybe they don’t have access to that telemetry but I think that’s kind of the vein of how they measure attention more than just touchscreen actions

vitorgrs

Also, Tiktok don't even require you to be a user to use, exactly because it's kinda irrelevant for them. They will build the algo based on which videos you liked, for how many seconds, replays, etc etc.

defluct

I use both and YouTube Short produces mostly just garbage for me. AI voice videos that will get your attention, but has little content. TikTok's algorithm on the other hand is much better and provides quality, half-long-form content.

lazycouchpotato

Shorts is garbage.

There are so many UI elements on top of video that end up blocking what you're trying to see. There is no way to hide them.

YouTube also destroyed its search.

eddd-ddde

As someone that uses both, YouTube shorts it's _not_ superior. Two very simple reasons:

1. the algorithm sucks 2. it will consistently fail to load content quickly enough when scrolling unwanted content

eitally

I spend a lot of time on YT, and less time on Instagram... and 0 time on TikTok, where I never created an account.

YT Shorts exist exclusively for YT creators who want to publish bite-sized pieces of content for their audience with a much lower expectation of polish than their normal longer form content. Perhaps the algorithm also presents "random" YouTubers', too, but the vast majority of what I see is put out by the publishers I'm already following (or other very similar publishers in the same ecosystem).

I would suggest that TikTok's successor is Insta Reels. Reels are almost exclusively entertainment and because they tie into Instagram's broader user/connections network the UX is much better than TikTok. Nobody goes to Instagram to figure out how to replace their garbage disposal -- this is squarely YT domain. If YT Shorts can make inroads in the entertainment market [without feeling like a commercial break between pieces of actual content, which is the impression I have and the way I use it].

api

It's not as addictive. TikTok mastered the hyper-addictive algorithm.

IMHO good riddance. Anything bad for the mindless addictive chum industry is good for humanity. Now do Instagram, Facebook, Xhitter, etc.

maxglute

Well it's more... Xiaohongshu is for cosmo PRC cool kids (read: lean wealthy), and also a large ecommerce portal that targets that demographic. Not sure if the userbase is interested in... western and RoW "riff raff" shitting up the content for too long. I say this more as an insult to Xiaohongshu, I like TikTok (or Douyin) because I like seeing entrepenurs sell neon signs and industrial glycerine between my swipes.

wildzzz

"Hey Homie, it's Tony,"

I've never been so interested in advertisements for commercial equipment before that guy.

vonneumannstan

His accent is fascinating. It's like he learned English as a second language in Rural Georgia.

clydethefrog

Rest of World had an informative article about Xiaohongshu few months ago, it seems indeed to be a combination of Instagram and Tripadvisor. Chinese people that are able to travel are using it to find the "authentic" places.

https://restofworld.org/2024/xiaohongshu-southeast-asia-tour...

EA-3167

It's also TIGHTLY controlled, with people complaining on Twitter and elsewhere that their posts are under 48 hour review before posting. The rules are also quite strict around LGBT issues etc, and not in favor.

Most of all though it's just a very silly protest, given that the "tiktok ban bill" is really a "hostile foreign-power controlled platform divestment bill" so Xiaohongshu will just be next on the block in the unlikely event that it becomes popular.

UniverseHacker

> cosmo PRC cool kids (read: lean wealthy)

What does this mean?

maxglute

XHS is for cool GenZ, bias female, urban, has money / disposable income, think coastal elite. I guess more lifestyle/gram, pushes beauty, fashion, wellness, food, luxury goods etc. Douyin (TikTok) is for masses... "less cultured" audience, more working class / hillbilly, pushes some of the above occasionally but also everything else from cheap widgets to industrial equipment.

eunos

For more down to earth contents I heard that Kuaishou (They made KLING AI video maker) is more suitable.

jhanschoo

well-traveled kids from well-connected families

giancarlostoro

> it's the place for Luigi Mangione memes

I read a lot about TikTok the last few months from users all over the web. Trust me, that's not what TikTok is actually full of, its just what algorithm you got sucked into, for whatever reason. I assume there's some specific bubble for "current viral thing" that you're locked into. Make an alt and like completely different content, you'll see that your feed will be night and day.

giancarlostoro

Additionally, what's worse is, I've seen posts of people unable to get out of the algorithm bubble on TikTok no matter how many videos they dislike. I think some people even try blocking the accounts. It's the weirdest algorithm. I assume it works for MOST users (when its not a "MEME" Bubble, its likely content you actually like), but if you shove someone into a niche meme bubble, it can get weird.

whimsicalism

tiktok easily lets you reset your algo, not sure if reels does the same

KwanEsq

The "it's" to which that sentence is referring is the previously mentioned "xiaohongshu, or "little red book"".

screye

Teens are rebellious & want to be far away from parents.

It disqualifies mainstream apps like Twitter, Reddit, BlueSky, Reels & now Snapchat as well. This leaves Tiktok and now international apps like Xiaohongshu as the obvious alternatives.

The more the US govt. forces youths to use American mega-corps, the less they want to use it.

LeroyRaz

I don't think rebellion has anything to do with why kids use Tiktok. Nor do I think the US has any interest in forcing kids to use social media...

polygon87

It’s not why they use TikTok but it’s why they don’t use other social media apps. Once an app becomes too popular with older people the quality and vibes decrease, plus everyone feels awkward about posting.

It’s something I’ve been thinking about outside of generational gaps, new social media apps are fun because you add all the people you’re comfortable with. After some years you now have a ton of connections from past stages of life, and start feeling restricted again in your personal expression.

Plus there’s the dual use issue – IG is too commonly shared now so I have current and former coworkers there plus everyone I’ve ever been interested in as friends or more at a party. So it’s not the place I’d want to feel free and creative.

IG tries to solve some of this with Close Friends and other lists but people don’t really want to spend their time constantly organizing a list of friends.

cg5280

No, but rebellion definitely has to do with why there is a shift towards Xiaohongshu, which is obviously even more Chinese than TikTok ever was.

nbaugh1

Hilarious categorizing TikTok as non-mainstream. I get what you mean, but the most popular thing is pretty much mainstream by default

bigstrat2003

Also, Bluesky is in no way mainstream. It's a niche platform used by a handful of terminally online people who really hate Elon. Most Twitter users who aren't hung up on ideology are still there.

dingnuts

parents aren't on Discord

jacobgkau

Discord is more of a small-group or individual communication platform. I don't think it's suited as well for the one-to-many or feed-based appeals of social media such as TikTok. (Large, public Discord servers absolutely exist, but they're often themed around something specific; and even if they weren't, you can't just have an algorithm determine which messages in a channel you do or don't see.)

screye

No one is one discord because its UI is impenetrable. Amazing VOIP though.

__m

Even Top 1 in the german app store where TikTok isn't banned. People identify on Red as TikTok refugees

spencerflem

Given how easy it is for China to buy US data legally from data brokers and how similar the functionality of TikTok and YouTube Shorts, I feel like the only explanations are:

1. The govt is mad that a foreign company is outcompeting a domestic one

Or more likely, given that there are so many other industries that didn't get a ban:

2. The govt is mad that they have control over the narrative on Facebook but do not on TikTok

rwarfield

The big issue isn't data security; it's propaganda. Irrespective of whether the government has control of the narrative on Facebook (I would argue they pretty clearly don't) there is no reason to let a foreign adversary have a deniable propaganda line to millions of Americans. Would we have let the USSR acquire a major television network?

And even if you disagree with the national security reasons for disallowing China to control a major U.S. social network, there is still the issue of trade reciprocity - nearly all of the U.S. Web companies are banned in China.

jeromegv

Looking forward to Europe banning Meta and X considering how their CEOs are meeting weekly with their government overlord, quite clear those social networks are in the pocket of the new US government.

kklisura

No, no, you can't do that. Than they'll come after you and claim how you're not free, you don't support free market and whatnot. Banning is tool for them, but not for you.

zeroonetwothree

The US didn’t “ban” anything. If the EU required Meta to divest I imagine they would do that rather than shut down and lose billions.

Aunche

This ban only applies to foreign adversaries (e.g. China, Iran, and Russia).

marcosdumay

Hum... Brazil already demanded explanations about the new Meta moderation rules. I remember reading the same about the UK, but I'm not sure.

cscurmudgeon

1. CEOs meeting the President is not evidence of govt. control.

2. Europe is an ally and under US govt defense umbrella .

kryogen1c

You know this was happening before elon bought Twitter, right? Secretly?

Members of congress were texting and emailing with execs from Twitter and Facebook to request post suppression. During an election.

pjc50

Musk making threats against the UK government has gone down badly: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/politics/government/uk-counter-ext...

Ikatza

The US is not an enemy to the EU, while China is a clear enemy to the US.

The difference is quite easy to easy to spot.

segasaturn

> Irrespective of whether the government has control of the narrative on Facebook (I would argue they pretty clearly don't)

Posting pro-Palestinian content on Facebook will get your account terminated for "supporting terrorism". The pro-western censorship regime on FB is extremely strong. US lawmakers specifically cited the amount of pro-Palestinian content on TikTok as why they were banning the app.

Sources:

https://theintercept.com/2025/01/09/tiktok-ban-israel-palest...

https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/...

directevolve

The HRW report’s list of complaints starts with censorship of praising Hamas (a designated terrorist org) and “from the river to the sea” (a call for the elimination of Israel, which lies between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea).

Karrot_Kream

Here's my big concern: If every big social media provider has to bake American policy position into its algorithm, what's going to happen to approaches like Bluesky or Mastodon/ActivityPub which allow users to choose their own algorithm?

wk_end

Speaking anecdotally, this doesn't really ring true for me. I see lots of pro-Palestinian content on Facebook and Instagram, ranging from the sincere to clear disinformation/propaganda. I have friends who post frequently in support of Palestine with zero repercussions.

Attempting to reconcile that with HRW's article: on the one hand I think HRW might be unrealistic about what FB should be expected to tolerate (for instance, they criticize FB for taking down posts praising designated terrorist organizations); on the other, Meta's approach to content moderation - which combines automated systems with overworked and underpaid humans exposed non-stop to awful content - is notoriously fickle and subject to abuse (including, perhaps, by state actors).

Beyond Israel/Palestine, I regularly encounter content on Facebook that the Powers That Be would censor if "the pro-Western censorship regime on FB [were] extremely strong". I think I subscribe to only one political (left-leaning) group (along with a bunch of local and meme pages), but nevertheless my feed is full of tankies demanding we bring back the guillotine and install full communism.

tyrrvk

[flagged]

msteffen

Not just trade reciprocity, but ideological reciprocity. The argument that the US should allow TikTok because “free speech”—while China bans American platforms because of censorship and also dictates content on TikTok because of censorship—seems obviously broken. Seems like the rule should at least be something like “Europe is welcome to blast propaganda at our teenagers for as long as we get to blast propaganda at their teenagers.”

whimsicalism

we should probably start banning books from China too, for the same reason

leptons

>Would we have let the USSR acquire a major television network?

Yes, there are millions of US citizens that would rather have a Russian TV station in their neighborhood than one run by Democrats. I don't understand it, but that seems to be the way it's going lately. And considering who's POTUS now, a Russia-run TV network in the US isn't that far-fetched. I mean, Fox News practically already is.

whimsicalism

i absolutely reject this great firewall style of thinking. I’m an American, an adult, and I can read and watch whatever I want.

tremon

Cherish it while you still can.

protimewaster

But is there actually any evidence that the US's foreign adversaries can more effectively deliver propaganda on Tiktok compared to other platforms?

I understand the concern over foreign propaganda, but this feels like it's not going to remotely impact the ability for foreign governments to deliver propaganda to Americans. It's perfectly possible to deliver propaganda on US-based social networks.

The best outcome of this is just that Americans find the other social networks so boring that they spend less time on social networks altogether, thus reducing their propaganda intake (at least, from social networks).

aaomidi

Literally same arguments used by Iran.

It’s fascinating honestly. Soon we’re going to have “we need government to be able to DPI and block propaganda!”

shlant

> Literally same arguments used by Iran.

All governments/nations have some level of self-interest. That doesn't mean they are all equal in their motivations or approaches.

China is literally controlling the narrative through TikTok. Why shouldn't the US respond to that?

ramblenode

> there is no reason to let a foreign adversary have a deniable propaganda line to millions of Americans.

I don't think this is a useful distinction in a world where a handful of ultra-billionaires control most of the remaining media channels. People like Rupert Murdoch, Musk, and the others have very different interests than the average American, and at least several of them openly push their own (divisive) viewpoints through their media. Why is Rupert Murdoch less of an adversary to the average person than the CCP?

The Western media are already doing everything that TikTok has been accused of being hypothetically able to do: sowing social division, brainrot, encouraging lawbreaking, undermining confidence in the government, promoting dangerous or fake products, etc.

The real difference is that TikTok threatens to boost an alternative to the consensus message of the political elite. A US with TikTok would see actual pushback against something like the early 2000s media shennanigans that got the Iraq War and Patriot Act smoothly approved with little public debate. That is the real reason Congress banned it and why the homegrown brainrot isn't seen as a threat.

jmyeet

In the words of Noam Chomsky [1]:

> [Manufacturing Consent] argues that the mass communication media of the U.S. "are effective and powerful ideological institutions that carry out a system-supportive propaganda function, by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without overt coercion", by means of the propaganda model of communication.

The problem with Tiktok, as far as the government is concerned, is the lack of control on narrative when Meta, Twitter and Google are an extension of the US State Department (eg [2]).

The Tiktok ban came together in a matter of days as a bipartisan effort weeks after the ADL said (in leaked audio) that they have a "TikTok problem" [3].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

[2]: https://www.hrw.org/report/2023/12/21/metas-broken-promises/...

[3]: https://x.com/TaylorNoakes/status/1766612105426596297

lenerdenator

> 2. The govt is mad that they have control over the narrative on Facebook but do not on TikTok

If the last four years are indicative of anything, it's that the US government has fairly limited control over the narrative on American social platforms.

I lost count of how many times I saw people typing in "FJB" and "MAGA".

ok123456

"FJB" and "MAGA" are within the bounds of allowed political discourse and were encouraged.

"Throw the bums out" without any additional coherent political project is precisely what the elites allow and what allows them to maintain power.

lenerdenator

I mean, if you want to ignore the fact that the JB was Joe Biden and he was quite literally President of the United States when that was a trend, sure.

Same with MAGA after January 6th.

kristopolous

Or, maybe, those things they don't see as a problem.

These shifty foreigners, however... Xenophobia isn't just some old timey things we use to do

spencerflem

Facebook is extremely censored re: the genocide in Gaza

TikTok is not

lenerdenator

Is it censored, or do most people just not talk about it on Facebook?

It's interesting how incredibly supportive of human rights that a platform in bed with the CCP became, no? Do you think that China's human rights bugaboos are often discussed on their internal social networks?

It's amplified.

throwawaymaths

tiktok is extremely censored re: genocide in xinjiang. facebook is not.

strathmeyer

Trump won, the Russian misinformation campaign is over now. You can stop making stuff up about Jews now.

palata

Totally. I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism, but as soon as something out-competes US companies, it gets banned: Huawei, DJI, TikTok.

Of course it cannot be said like this, because "free speech" and "democracy", so the official reason is "national security".

rwarfield

This claim is incompatible with the reality that the U.S. runs an enormous bilateral trade deficit with China.

iforgot22

Also Japanese cars

tonyhart7

well china does it too with google,fb etc back then, and other nation do it too

albeit not outright banned it all together but sometimes they prefer homegrown company/technology

TulliusCicero

> albeit not outright banned it all together

No they absolutely do just ban them.

It's not just that Google or FB can't operate Chinese-specific sites as a business within China, from within China you can't even get to the foreign/international versions of those sites, because they're blocked by China's firewall. Wikipedia has a whole list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...

palata

Sure. I just noted the irony that the US discourse has sounded a lot like "we are better than China, we are more free" for decades.

lenerdenator

I mean, let's be clear: Facebook and Google are very much banned in Mainland China.

corimaith

Mercantalism begets Mercantalism. If their mercantalist policies become successfull then unfortunately we'll need to also assume similar policies to protect ourselves, aka Beggar Thy Neighbour, and everyone loses in an arms race of tariffs and subsidies.

That's exactly why free trade proponets oppose those policies, but the CCP didn't want to reform so we'll go the opposite way.

pessimizer

It's important to say that the US had TikTok with Vine, but is so corrupt that it let Facebook buy it to shut it down.

infecto

I cannot argue on the TikTok as strongly but I can see strong arguments on why Huawei and DJI are national security risks. Some of this is more educated guesses so not defensible with numbers. We know most major companies in the Chinese market have extremely close ties to the CCP. No doubt historically the US has gotten companies to put in backdoors or other mechanisms but I believe the CCP takes it to a next level. We know for a fact that the CCP and chinese entities play extremely hardball when it comes to corporate espionage. Some of the stories we have seen almost read like a spy novel. Certainly Huawei and DJI make some incredible products but when you have drones being used to survey the electric grid or other major pieces of infrastructure, I do believe it warrants major concern for national security.

I think you are proposing a much more extreme conspiracy compared to the easier explanation, China is a fairly crafty bad actor in a lot of cases. 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked, just the ones that have very significant national security risks.

suraci

> 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked

because it's impossible.

the US offloaded low-added-value manufacturing to China, exchanging paper dollars for cheap industrial goods. When China tries to upgrade to high-added-value industries, like chips, guess what? National security risks!

just enjoy cheap goods and nature resources from 3rd world...

amrocha

Read some of the many stories out there about the NSA, please. They have backdoors into internet infrastructure. If any country is a threat to information security, it’s the USA.

palata

> I think you are proposing a much more extreme conspiracy

I am not proposing a conspiracy, I am merely noting some irony in the fact that the US are doing protectionism here.

> No doubt historically the US has gotten companies to put in backdoors or other mechanisms

Well, most of the Western Internet goes through the US, and we know for a fact that the US try to extract as much as they can from whatever they can (remember Snowden?). Also the US are very fine with US companies owning all the data of a big part of the world, and they would be really pissed if some country started banning them "for national security reasons".

> but when you have drones being used to survey the electric grid or other major pieces of infrastructure

You don't need to connect the drone to the Internet. Technical solutions would most definitely exist, I am convinced of that. The reason DJI is being banned is because DJI is 7 years ahead of anyone else, and the gap is getting bigger every year. It really, really sounds like the US drone companies have been lobbying a ton because they just can't compete.

iforgot22

Huawei has been caught stealing more than enough trade secrets to justify a ban. I'd be happy if they banned a lot more Chinese firms for that, or just in response to China's own bans. But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship.

palata

> But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship.

Censorship, or protectionism because TikTok is eating the lunch of the big US social media?

swed420

Yup. China has been kicking Silicon Valley's butt for some time now, and I don't see any signs of that changing any time soon.

This drives the point home:

AI Superpowers: China, Silicon Valley, and the New World Order by Kai-Fu Lee https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38242135-ai-superpowers

tmaly

It was with the 2020 version of the algorithm till they changed things see https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/

voxic11

> how easy it is for China to buy US data legally from data brokers

A law passed at the same time as the tiktok ban attempts to address this:

> a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for a data broker to sell, license, rent, trade, transfer, release, disclose, provide access to, or otherwise make available personally identifiable sensitive data of a United States individual to— (1) any foreign adversary country; or (2) any entity that is controlled by a foreign adversary.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/9901

cg5280

To echo what other comments have said about it being propaganda related, we can already see this occurring today:

https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/A-Tik-Tok-ing-...

notepad0x90

it's not the same data or data quality. the concern isn't just data collection but manipulation of the american public (psyops). What russia is doing through their trollfarms, china is doing through tiktok.

coldpie

> the concern isn't just data collection but manipulation of the american public (psyops).

I don't buy it. If that were actually the concern, we would be talking about banning Facebook and X for manipulating Americans to vote against their own interests and hand over more power & money to the platforms' owners. Facebook has done way, way, way, way more harm to America and Americans than Tiktok ever did. The Tiktok ban is an illegitimate handout to America's oligarchs to protect them from having to compete. It's nothing to do with protecting Americans from manipulation.

mint2

Well FB is American. Even though I and many people agree FB is also a problem, I think it’s pretty clear why those in Washington are more okay with an American company that they have some power over and also should ostensibly care for America versus a company that is ostensibly beholden to an adversary. (To be clear, I don’t think FB cares about America.)

I don’t really see why it’s hard to see the reasoning behind the ban even if one disagrees with it.

Take it to an extreme, imagine there were zero American social media companies in our modern world where most people get there news from social media. That obviously would be a huge security risk, having one’s population’s news being controlled exclusively by foreign states.

notepad0x90

American social media is banned in China and if used against americans by its leadership, it would be a domestic threat not a foreign threat. Twitter was bought by Elon and used to influence an election successfully. if we're honest in this discussion, we shouldn't pretend the threat isn't real. Foreign companies get banned from owning american companies all the time. Biden just banned US steel's takeover by a japanese company.

You know what scares me? how the actual majority on HN is critical of the tiktok ban despite all what I have just said being obvious things a critical thinker can deduce. I'm concerned the influence of tiktok (foreign actors) is already too pervasive and damaging. You all should know the US by any historical metrics is at the precipice of a civil war as it is.

zeroonetwothree

American corporations have free speech rights. Chinese corporations do not.

rsanek

> we would be talking about banning Facebook and X for manipulating Americans vote

in fact, there is alot of talk about this. wasn't that the main reason Musk bought Twitter?

NoGravitas

Mitt Romney basically came out and admitted that the reason for the TikTok ban was that young people were getting unfiltered access to information about the genocide in Gaza.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

TulliusCicero

I'm fine with this, based on the simple principle of Turnabout Is Fair Play.

China already bans practically all the popular US social media apps and similar apps/websites. I'm for free trade, but it ought to be fair trade too, as in, roughly similar/equal policies. If another country bans X imports from your own, it's hardly unfair to respond in kind.

0x5f3759df-i

This is exactly it. If China allowed fully uncensored American social media to operate in China I’d had zero issue letting them do the same in the US.

But the CCP wants to have their cake and eat it too. Fully repressive social media lock downs and censorship for their citizens but exploiting the west’s values of free speech and debate.

TulliusCicero

To be clear, it's not just that China won't let Western websites operate uncensored as businesses within China targeting the Chinese market.

It's also that people within China can't access the foreign websites and apps (without using a VPN), because China's Internet firewall blocks that access! That's what makes it an incontrovertible ban!

Even if a company has no interest in operating as a business within China in the first place, China may still block the websites and apps. That's a ban no matter how you slice it.

culi

On the other hand, the reason these bans are in place have very specific origins. Facebook for example refused to provide Chinese authorities with information on domestic terrorists in 2009. Facebook has never pulled that off in a western country.

Meanwhile TikTok has worked very hard to work with authorities in the US for pretty much any of their demands.

I don't support any of these bans but I don't think its fair to equate these.

tzs

China doesn't allow uncensored Chinese social media to operate in China either, so it doesn't really make much sense to say that they should have to allow uncensored American social media in order for Chinese social media companies to operate in the US.

That would be like saying that an Israeli publisher should not be allowed to publish in the US because US publishers cannot publish holocaust denial books in Israel. Or saying that a UAE restaurant should not be allowed to operate in the US because the UAE doesn't Wendy's there to serve the Baconator.

The sensible rule is that X should allow companies from Y to operate in X subject to the same rules that domestic X companies must follow if Y allows X companies to operate in Y if they follow the same rules as domestic Y companies.

TulliusCicero

Ah, so because China severely represses their own people, that means outright banning foreign web platforms even when they're hosted on foreign soil isn't really a ban for some reason.

The logic of PRC defenders never ceases to amaze.

SOTGO

Couldn't you argue the opposite? That is, if we are so opposed to China then shouldn't we do the opposite of them? I don't think it seems very American to change our policy to be more like the "enemy"

TulliusCicero

This is like saying, "well sure they invaded us with their military, but we don't want to be like them, so let's not take any military action in response."

Fundamentally, aggressive action as a response is not equivalent to being the initiator of aggression. Hence: turnabout is fair play. If someone punches you economically, it's entirely fair and reasonable to punch them back. It does not make you "just like them" to defend yourself.

mileycyrusXOXO

That's a poor analogy. It's more like they censor their citizens so we should censor ours!

kshacker

Sure but that is the ruling class's perspective.

What about the people who want TT? You can not hold them hostage to Chinese people not having TT or other apps. That's what the current Red Note revolt is all about.

TulliusCicero

> What about the people who want TT?

Well, unlike Chinese nationals, Americans live in a democracy, so they could write to representatives or vote.

But realistically, few care enough for this to sway who they're voting for.

> You can not hold them hostage to Chinese people not having TT or other apps.

You actually can! As long as one nation is being shitty on trade and that starts a trade war, yeah that will hurt some regular people, but the alternative would be to become a total doormat and just let other countries get away with doing whatever they want.

johann8384

TikTok is banned in China.

est

> China already bans practically all the popular US social media apps and similar apps/websites

Sorry but not ALL of them. Myspace is not banned lmao

TulliusCicero

Well I did say "popular".

stonesthrowaway

[flagged]

mrtransient

I am genuine interested in details why and how US media didnt abide to China laws?

TulliusCicero

It requires cooperating with domestic Chinese censorship and providing personal details/actions of users by default to the Chinese government to an extent that Western companies generally aren't okay with.

However, this is all a deflection, because blocking a company from operating as a business within China is not the same thing as banning them by blocking all access to their foreign websites/apps.

If China didn't want Wikipedia operating fully within China as a nonprofit, but you could still access foreign countries'/languages' Wikipedias, I wouldn't necessarily describe Wikipedia as "banned in China". I'd maybe describe it as a partial ban at most.

MetaWhirledPeas

> tiktok goes out of its way to abide by US laws and still were banned

I'm guessing they decided there was no effective legislation Tiktok couldn't weasel around via loopholes, deception, or some combination of the two.

culi

What legislation are you talking about? They've been extremely transparent about their business through this whole process. They've been asked to do things no other companies are asked to do and they still abide

I'm not a fan of TikTok but its silly not to see the bias here

munificent

> refuse to abide by chinese laws

Honest question: what laws?

infotainment

Never ever say anything bad about The Glorious Leader, of course.

TulliusCicero

More misinformation from the PRC defense squad!

They are, in fact, banned. It's not just that they can't operate like a normal business within China, you can't even reach the foreign servers from within China...because they're banned.

If a new social media network opens in Denmark, it might not operate in the US yet -- which means US laws wouldn't even be applicable -- but I could still reach it from the US without needing a VPN, because it wouldn't be banned either. Maybe it wouldn't be useful for me as an American yet, but I could still get to the website, because the US government isn't stopping me.

Many popular US websites are actually banned in China, whether you want to admit it or not.

bloopernova

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri:

"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

phatfish

Maybe this soundbite applies in an information vacuum like North Korea or ironically, and to a lesser extent, China. But in an environment where there is too much information for people to process, and truth is drowned out by lies and nonsense on social media feeds, it works against society.

It's bad enough that US based social media corporations are allowed to wash their hands of responsibility for the content on their platform and add to the executive bonus pool in the process. But having a hostile government control a platform is just insane.

There is a middle ground between being bundled into the back of a police car if someone speaks against their government, and freely allowing enemies to manipulate your population.

tryauuum

The problem is that it's the government who decides who the enemies are when silencing "the words of enemies"

ok_dad

> hostile government

I don't recall us being at war or anything with China. For example, most of our crap is made there and shipped here with barely a look. If China were truly hostile and combative like everyone claims, they could literally import bombs and spies via those means.

Is this just the Red Scare 2.0? I've had way more issue with American oligarchs and politicians fucking over America's values and our way of life than China in the past few years/decades, that is for sure.

Maximus9000

If buying a plastic toilet bowl cleaner, I don't care where it comes from. If buying a 5G network equipment, we do care. Most of the stuff we buy from China is plastic junk.

GlickWick

There's nothing free-flow about TikTok, though. Like Twitter/X, Instagram, etc it's actually a carefully curated experience that can be tuned opaquely by whoever runs it to control the flow of information. The US took umbrage to this being in the direct hands of a foreign adversary.

zzzeek

TikTok is a restricted information environment controlled and manipulated by literal tyrants. Subjects that are disfavored by the CCP are heavily penalized by their algorithm [1]

if you are looking to safeguard against tyranny step 1 is to not have the CCP be in full control of your country's public square

[1] https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing...

Maximus9000

Google the phase "flood the zone with shit". Your strategy only works if most of the people speaking/writing are genuinely trying to make the world a better place. If state actors are trying to flood the zone with anything and everything, then it becomes impossible for John Everyman to distinguish signal from noise.

hermannj314

The "War on Drugs" ensured that when an American dies from a drug overdose it is an American company, like Purdue Pharma, that made money killing them.

And when an American is brainwashed into believing a lie, it better damn well be an American company that sold them that lie.

That is the dream this country was built on.

paxys

Anyone remember when they were in school and adults tried to ban access to a popular website? I imagine this ban will go down exactly the same. Never underestimate a bored teenager's ability to bypass tech restrictions. Heck maybe this is what is needed to finally get a new generation out of the comforts of their tech walled garden and get their hands dirty.

Jean-Papoulos

Don't underestimate the human ability to "settle for less" if said less requires less effort from them. There's a reason people pay for Netflix despite pirating proposing a higher level of quality ; Netflix is just easier. They will settle for the "easy" solution, which will be any one of the TikTok clones already existing (YT shorts, reels, whatever).

3minus1

> There's a reason people pay for Netflix despite pirating proposing a higher level of quality; Netflix is just easier

I'm slightly annoyed how this comment completely ignores the moral and ethical reasons someone might want to avoid making an illegal copy of something while denying it's creators any compensation. I need more coffee.

kingstoned

Netflix is not easier, but marketed heavily and competition is censored in search results. Some random pirating streaming site is unknown and probably not even easily discoverable on google (you have to use yandex for that).

I stick to pirating with adblockers because it is more convenient, there is a much bigger library of content and I don't have to share any personal info or pay for anything.

ketzo

If you know the words “yandex” and “adblocker” you are already 90th percentile ability to pirate content

Netflix is absolutely easier to use than any form of pirating for the vast majority of their userbase.

Everyone in this thread talking about how people will “just get a VPN” to use TikTok have zero concept of the technical abilities of TikTok’s user base

zamadatix

I used to pirate, went to Netflix because it was easy, and recently went back to pirating. Not because pirating became easier... but because Netflix became shit enough for pirating to be worth the bother.

ge96

I wouldn't mind paying if it wasn't setup in a way like "oh want to watch that movie? subscribe to this service" at one point I was paying for maybe 5 different providers eg. Apple TV, Netflix, Disney+, HBOMax, etc...

csomar

> Netflix is not easier, but marketed heavily and competition is censored in search results.

Did you just confirm the parent poster point while also denying it.

2OEH8eoCRo0

Convenience wins every time. Digital photos are lower quality but easy. MP3 is worse than CD quality but easy. Etc.

lII1lIlI11ll

Popular creators will leave, if they can't monetize their content anymore. Then, everyone else will follow the creators to whatever platform they will end up on.

staticman2

The only reason social media is popular is Americans are too lazy to find stuff on the open web. They'd prefer the lazier option of the single web site deciding for them what to see and think about.

There's zero chance most will put in effort to access TikTok.

cellis

Exactly. There was a blog post a couple years ago called “The Tyranny of the marginal user” that states this principle succinctly. If it’s anymore effort than a thumb swipe, you’re losing users in a hurry.

kjkjadksj

This ban does nothing about the mobile tick tok website. You don’t need to be a techie to use the browser on your cellphone. Yet it is a point of friction compared to an app with native notifications. And given the expectations of the average american tech user who has been coddled for the last decade into safe app store apps instead of the scary web, people are legitimately concerned.

warner25

This part is unclear to me. I know the article says "app," but this is general news reporting, and the term "web app" for stuff in the browser is acceptable terminology anyway. It also says that opening the app will redirect people to a page with information about the ban, not to the main page of the website. Prior to this discussion, I thought a ban at the ISP or CDN level was part of the plan, so a VPN would be required to circumvent it. No?

In any case, yeah, I'm not sure that "the average american tech user who has been coddled for the last decade" knows what a web browser is. I've observed some user behavior among family members that indicates a pretty bizarre mental model of how the Internet, web, and mobile applications work.

rsanek

how would this actually work? iOS is so dominant among US teens it's crazy, and the ability to sideload on that platform is nonexistent even to very technically savvy users.

paxys

If the holding power of TikTok is strong enough (which it just might be) then you might actually see teens start to switch to Android.

iforgot22

I wonder how many Android users would actually sideload it. Same happened with Fortnite for a few years, and idk how many people did that.

whimsicalism

you won’t

greenavocado

I got popcorn ready to see how the masses of iOS users will react to the TikTok ban

nashashmi

That is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem is that if I have a tiktok channel, and the only way for people to see it is through a hack, then obviously my channel won't do that well.

The bored teenager will learn ways to get tiktok. But the bored tiktokker won't learn ways to get the audience on tiktok

culi

All they're really banning is the app on the App or Play store basically. Anyone who still has tiktok on their phone can continue on and even make a new account. Anyone who cares enough can probably get a cracked APK too

TikTok will probably die slowly not suddenly

perryizgr8

The duopoly of app store and play store makes this kind of ban much more effective. India banned TikTok and nobody uses it over here now. It's simply too hard to download the app. Google won't let me download it even when I'm traveling abroad.

Banning websites has been very hard, but today's closed marketplace ecosystems make banning apps much easier and people are not motivated to find loopholes.

ergonaught

US citizens do not want this.

Every news article descending into tangents on any other point than that is part of why we can't have nice things.

The whole country has turned into some sort of lower primate improv troupe where whatever stupid thing comes up gets a "Yes and let's" diversion instead of an adult in the room standing up and cutting the crap.

I_AM_A_SMURF

We certainly _do_ want this. I think the fact that we let a foreign company own a social media platform in the first place is preposterous. As others have said, we would never let the CCP own a TV broadcast, why should we let china own a major social media platform? That's just absurd.

gabruoy

“We” do not want surveillance propaganda targeted towards children. The US government does not want Chinese surveillance propaganda targeted toward children. They’re perfectly happy when it’s done on US soil under US jurisdiction.

culi

If we don't want this then we simply won't make an account on those platforms...

YOU want this ban and you don't like that OTHER PEOPLE like TikTok. Clearly you don't have a TikTok account and that's not enough. You want to make sure no one else is allowed to have a TikTok account either

Instead of spreading the message about possible harms you'd rather ban other people's abilities

dpig_

For most of the world, your platforms are already foreign-owned.

perlgeek

You do realize that in vast majority of all countries, all major social media platforms are owned by foreign companies?

There seems to be a real risk of propaganda on Tiktok, but foreign ownership alone isn't a sound reason for a ban.

rsanek

> foreign ownership alone isn't a sound reason for a ban

You're right -- but foreign ownership by a repressive regime with undemocratic ideals certainly is. For example, I don't think anyone would be too concerned if a European country was the one that founded & owned TikTok.

herbst

Or should it be reason enough. The EU should ban Meta as well, no question. This foreign propaganda, risking mental health in teenagers and all that stuff is US propaganda shoved down our eyes.

iforgot22

There are foreign-controlled TV networks in the US. Not over-the-air, but that's probably due to them being niche more than anything.

dml2135

Part of it is almost certainly due to the FCC controlling licenses for what is broadcast over the air.

paulcole

I watch like 25 hours of TikTok a week. I absolutely love it.

I certainly _do_not_ want this.

bobmcnamara

There's a Kremlin radio station in Missouri.

doctorpangloss

> US citizens do not want this

Ha ha, I guess you are discovering, many many people do want this.

tills13

No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this. This is like vegans banning steak.

loeg

It's like the non-addicts banning heroin. You don't have to be a Tik Tok user to understand that it's bad for it to be PRC-controlled!

doctorpangloss

You're getting it. It is like vegans banning steak!

> "lower primate improv troupe"

> "No one who actually uses it or understands it wants this."

"Everyone's generalizations are stupid, except mine."

randomcatuser

The users for sure don't want this. Among non-users, I'd say there's a sizable difference (let's say 50/50)...

Many things aren't that democratic when you look at it like that!

theultdev

US citizens elected representatives to make laws for them. Even more so, this is a bipartisan law.

Tiktok US users of voting age are already accounted for in that process, they don't get extra sway just because they use the app.

mint2

Of course the users don’t want it. Asking a fanbase if the thing they are a fan of should be banned and ignoring all other groups doesn’t make much sense. Nothing would be banned.

jhp123

Pew has it at 32–28 in support of the ban[0]. I think that's pretty low for a bipartisan effort where the opposition hasn't really had a chance to air it's case.

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/05/support-f...

kansface

I'm for the ban chiefly on the grounds of economic fairness in access to markets. China doesn't allow access to any US social media products. We should only open our doors to Chinese companies conditioned on reciprocation.

drawkward

I am a US Citizen and I 100% want this. I think this is far too small a step; I think all social media should be banned.

dns_snek

But this isn't about banning social media, it's about banning dissent.

Would you feel the same way if the US government banned all mainstream media organizations except the ones you ideologically oppose?

drawkward

> it's about banning dissent

On the contrary, I think it is about banning a propaganda and social engineering vector that is under the thumb of an adversarial foreign government. That, for me, is enough of a reason to ban it and justify it under our constitution.

The fact that I am in favor of banning all social media should tell you that it is not ideological, but rather that I think social media is extremely addictive, and has huge negative externalities.

Zak

What criteria define social media that's ban-worthy for you? Does it require the combination of user-generated content and a personalized algorithmic feed which characterizes modern corporate social media, or do you extend it to a broader range of ways people can interact over the internet?

drawkward

I'm not a lawyer, and therefore I am not qualified to make that kind of definition.

valleyjo

I’m a us citizen and I do want this. Speak for yourself. China bans us social media. Us should ban Chinese social media.

herbst

Where is that whataboutism coming from. What has the one to do with the other? Do you want a great Firewall for America? Is that what this is about?

corimaith

The Senator you voted for this probably voted for this so yes, America does want this.

t-writescode

Those in leadership being against a meaningful percentage (about 30%) of those under their care is common.

corimaith

Well let's not talk in abstract phrases, who did YOU vote for, and did you not find it probable that they would support such actions?

tdb7893

I think part of the problem is everyone thinks they are the "adult in the room" and everyone else is the "primates". I agree policy discussions are a bit of a farce though (in a sorta funny twist places like TikTok are responsible for that since the engagement metrics have a tendency to promote nonsense and lies)

gaoshan

Banning individual apps in this manner is wrong, IMO. In a country where concepts like freedom of speech and restrictions on government censorship are not insignificant considerations (in theory, at a minimum) a decision like this is unfortunate. China bans apps... tons of apps... in order to maintain strict control over the content and identity of users. This strategy is not something the US should be mimicking.

The claim that it's a "national security" risk and the ban is needed to mitigate that is silly. If it is really that then ban it from government facilities and devices. The actual risk from TikTok is no greater than the risk from Facebook, Instagram or any of a myriad of apps.

The correct thing to do would be to strengthen laws that address the core concerns so that we are protected from ANY app that represents a threat to privacy or security. Just banning a single app (and then another, and another...) is ridiculous and goes against a number of things this country is supposed to stand for.

randomopining

So what if a conflict breaks out and the CCP essentially use TikTok as a pathway directly into the brains of millions of Americans. Let's say they tweak the algorithm with a button press to create confusion and public discord when we should be united to protect taiwan.

That's a possible tool of disinformation.

ok_dad

WHAT IF aliens invade and take over TikTok and then use it to convince hard-working Americans to dive into the mouths of the aliens?

It's a possible tool for aliens to make lunch.

kccoder

One of those scenarios is much more likely than the other.

tryauuum

hm, create a law which gives government emergency powers to delete apps / ban ip networks in case of a war

---

now that I think about it more banning foreign websites is the perfect way to brain wash

1. ban all foreign websites, because clearly it's a foreign influence on your people. "What if the war breaks" and so on

2. now you only have your local websites. Their owners are here and can be forced to mangle / edit content and bend it to your will. Where the foreign actor can ignore your requests local one can not

We already have it in Russia. People use the ugly and banned Facebook because they know that at least it's less censored in regards to Russian topics than locally owned VK or dzen. And Facebook is less likely to provide your messages to the russian police

noisy_boy

Counterbalance to misinformation is, just, information. Strengthen the institutions that provide valuable and quality information and use them as counter. Why aren't PBS and such institutions funded to produce shorts that inform users and put those on Tiktok et all?

randomopining

What if, by nature, any type of conspiracy information is much better at hitting dopamine centers and attracting viewers than the "real" news can ever be? What if PBS could never come close to what misinformation can do and who it can attract...

karakot

This is so fucking sad. As a russian american who lived through russian transition from relatively free country to an authoritarian one I'm getting dejavu vibes here(Putin started with taking over of all independent news sources like newspapers/tv and radio channels etc). This is not up to the government or some other people to decide what I read, what I watch where I get my information/news from. America has a beautiful concept of free speech, stick to it. I personally think that TikTok is a brain rot, but I still don't want any government involvement into this. Don't like it? - Don't use it.

gaoshan

Totally agree with this.

randomopining

When did they say you can't read or watch? The same video producers on Tiktok can move to the multitude of platforms that are allowed. They can produce the exact same stuff.

The ban has nothing to do with the material, it has to do with the platform that is used to distribute and curate it. CCP by controlling the algorithm would allow it to do exactly what you say, at the push of a button.

Your comparison to Putin's Russia falls very short.

herbst

If they would ban what they think tiktok does wrong. Mr Zuckerberg would be very sad I guess.

But so much this, just banning TikTok will change nothing but more distrust in American politics

phatfish

I broadly agree with this, but there was a path for the Tiktok app to not be banned, which is basically the China playbook of handing over control to a domestically controlled entity. Which in the case of a social media company with the reach of Tiktok i don't think is unreasonable.

Strengthened laws would be welcome, but all the social media companies would resist this as hard as they can. I don't see any real regulation happening until there is a crisis of some sort that will push it through against all the lobbyists and bought politicians.

kgeist

Lots of American social media are banned here by the Russian government (all for the same reason of protecting citizens from foreign avdersaries), and we just use VPN. We're used to it, and if a service is popular (like Instagram), it's practically impossible to ban it. Monetization provided by the service is replaced by embedding sponsors' videos directly in the video (and getting money directly from the sponsor without third parties), or by selling merchendize to fans.

I wonder how many Americans will just use VPN? Is it common to use VPN in the US? Here, almost everyone uses it now. A few weeks ago they suddenly banned Viber for some reason and I barely noticed it.

NoPicklez

As someone in Australia which I assume is fairly similar, we really don't use VPN's, at the very least the average person doesn't and their use isn't common knowledge. However I have friends in China like you, where VPN's are used by the majority.

We are used to having access to pretty much everything we want access to.

The most popular apps and services used around the world are largely readily available in the US and do not need VPN's to use.

A Tiktok ban is in my memory probably the first time that a major platform used by the masses has been banned for use in the US. Because of the lack of VPN usage by every day people, I'd say everyone will flock to Instagram rather than continuing to try accessing Tiktok. If nobody else you know is using Tiktok, then why use it would be the question.

montag

Almost nobody uses a VPN here, just the geeks and people who need it for their corporate job. We're not used to this at all.

4xAM

[dead]

donatj

If X ne Twitter knew what they were doing, now would have been the obvious moment to relaunch Vine.

VyseofArcadia

I've been wondering for the past couple of years, why did Vine fail but TikTok succeed? Based on my increasingly fuzzy memories of Vine and my rough understanding of TikTok as a non-user, they appear to be pretty much the same app.

MarkMarine

TikTok’s algorithm for the feed and their data science and recommenders are pretty amazing. You can tune it to show you what you like really quickly and it’s effective. Mine is tuned to old house preservation and restoration, a couple guys doing skits as blue collar workers that are some of the funniest parts of my day, motocross videos, and some dog/animal content. I’ve never liked a video or commented on a video, it’s just so effective using dwell time and they have so much data that they can give you exactly what you want and little that you don’t. There is no politics on my feed. I challenge you to get that with twitter, reels, threads, Facebook, vine… any of them

michaelmueller

Lack of variety in videos. 6s videos limited the amount of content that could be included to the point where all videos were essentially short comedy skits. TikTok keeps you engaged by showing you a variety of different genres of video. This includes comedy, but also educational videos, sports highlights, video game clips, etc.

Add to this TikTok's algorithm for deciding what content to show you based on how engaged you were in the previous videos and you end up with a "For you" feed that drastically varies from person-to-person. This keeps it fresh and enjoyable at all times.

Youtube tries to do a similar thing by presenting you videos that are similar to your interests, but in my experience it usually trends towards what is likely "more profitable". Meaning longer videos from well-established creators to juice as much ad revenue as possible from the user.

TikTok feels night-and-day in comparison. On TikTok, I can watch a 3 minute educational video on how elevators work, and then scroll once and see 3 second video of a grown man pretending to be a duck

tokioyoyo

I think we remember Vine through rose colored glasses. There was nothing on vine that was addicting, other than some very famous videos, that are still treated as relics. And everyone knew about those videos, because of how the feed was organized. TikTok is way more tailored-to-the-user.

VyseofArcadia

> There was nothing on vine that was addicting

Well that sounds like a selling point to me.

samcat116

> There was nothing on vine that was addicting

Did we use the same app??

RIP Vine

dvngnt_

vine could only do 7 second videos which hurts long-term

paxys

The precursor to TikTik (Musical.ly) "failed" as well. I think it's because while apps of that era were able to achieve the viral moment, they failed to convert that into advertising and sponsorship $$$. TikTok, Instagram etc. have perfected that pipeline.

xnx

Right idea, wrong time. The number of people with phones and data plans capable of recording, uploading, and viewing good quality video is near 100% now.

donatj

Vines were limited to six seconds, so the medium was a little different. That seems easy enough to change however.

GaryNumanVevo

I doubt they have the engineering experience to launch anything at this point. They try to do a weird tiktok like thing where watching a video on mobile will randomly scroll to another video, but I think this probably has more to do with juicing "unregretted user seconds" than anything.

93po

[flagged]

jonathantf2

Still can't fix the fact that videos randomly pause every 2 seconds though

paxys

Like?

mempko

I just opened a new twitter account as an experiment. What features are you talking about? Nothing is obviously new. Also seems much more buggy than I remember.

herbst

People in here literally argue that they should build a great Firewall because China has one too.

Do these people listen themself when they write things like this?

I think it's absolutely worrisome if this mentality gets an actual thing, if it isn't already.

junto

I’m puzzled too. By the rationale I read here, Europe should ban all non-European social networks (which would be great since we don’t really have any). Whilst TikTok based propaganda is clearly being used to wage war on European elections, US propaganda targeting Europeans is equally being peddled by US tech giants as well. Social media is truly the worst widely accepted invention of the internet.