Sonos CEO steps down after app update debacle

Perfect! It turns out this was a Sonos Play 5 too[1], although mine is seems to be a newer Model S100!

Funnily enough, I own an electronics company and Dave is just down the road :-)

[1] https://files.littlebird.com.au/pb-BfEVPbWlDe-hkxfK0.png

Old Sonos hardware works great with Roon.

I am very annoyed at the planned obsolescence that Sonos has been pushing for a while now. I stopped buying new Sonos hardware, I'm still using all my old hardware, just not with the terrible Sonos apps, but with Roon.

I also took to aggressively repairing very old hardware that was actually failing (ZP80 players), because of the Sonos planned obsolescence policy. Recapping the PSU did the job, and I intend to keep them going for as long as I possibly can.

It's insane to think of the collective number of hours wasted on this.

Yet people will still buy Sonos!

> Still, traditional Hifi is dying to the "crap tiny speaker" folks.

I wonder if it also ties into living situations and customers that are in a separate house.

With my apartment-situation, I'm always using a headset (or bluetooth headphones.) Perhaps not crap tiny speakers, but not so big that making them good takes as much effort.

> The company that owns Denon and Marantz may go out business this year.

Oh man. I guess I better stock up on the latest Marantz before the go out of business. The last one I had was my dad's and it lasted 50 years. Actually, it still works, it just requires you to manually power it on.

> Speaker and amplifier design are vastly better than even 15 years ago

Let's break this down into the components:

Speaker drivers: very little change

Speaker chassis design: still changing, last major change was improved computational modeling

Amplifier: Class D was the last major change, not much since

DSP: Still evolving, getting better every day

AV Receiver control boards: Standards are changing every day, whether that's new HDMI standards, new bluetooth versions, or new AirPlay/Chromecast protocols.

TL;DR: Buy old speakers and a new receiver/amp.

Can you recommend a modern mini amp?

I'd point out that all that was needed to add that capability to a 1970 stereo is one of these devices:

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/port

Although I laughed out loud that they're asking $450 for that little box. That's pretty cheeky. The BOM on that must be $15. Margin level: Apple!

I wonder if they make it $450 to discourage doing just what I'm describing. To make people consider that for that kind of money they could buy one decent Sonos speaker and "simplify." Even though the Sonos speaker won't have anywhere near the sound quality or longevity of a 40-year-old stereo amp and speakers.

My favorite recent discovery in the HiFi world (after losing interest about 15 years ago) are the WiiM network streamers. Connect them up to any old system via RCA, toslink or coax and you can:

- stream from a wide number of subscription services

- stream from your own DLNA server or samba share

- cast from Chromecast or AirPlay

- with multiple devices, you can do multi-room synchronized streaming

- apply parametric EQ, including (in the higher end models) auto room correction

- hook up a digital source (eg, TV) so you can apply EQ

- hook up an analog device (like a turntable) and stream it to the rest of the devices in the house

The app's surprisingly good, the firmware updated regularly.

The cheapest version is under $100. They're like Chromecast Audio's on steroids. When (eventually) they die or get superseded, it's easy to replace without needing to touch the rest of the system.

I have 3 at the moment, the main one hooked up my amp and speakers from the 80s, which I picked up used in the 2000s.

I have a raspberry pi running an AirPlay server[0] and nothing else. Turned some nice analog speakers into airplayable for like $20

[0]: https://github.com/juhovh/shairplay

If only there was a small and very cheap device with wifi and aux out that you could plug into your old stereo, and instantly get the possibility to cast music directly from all your Android apps. Like a Chromecast but for Audio.

Seriously, this was a thing 10 years ago! I bought five, and they all still work perfectly. They do multiroom audio. They are compatible with the new Nest speakers. The only reason we can't have them today is corporate greed and rent-seeking MBA fuckers.

> 500W

Amplifiers are quoted in peak output, not average (and play some games with other parameters e.g. resistance) to capture bigger-number-better sales. A 750w system will consume nowhere near 750w at typical listening volumes (just like your 750w PC doesn't use 18 kWh every day.)

Unless you’re playing REALLY loud, I don’t think you are anywhere near 250 or 500W of consumption. I would guess it is the maximum rated power?

Even with quite old and inefficient amp + speaker combo, 30W of sound is usually a lot(!).

Tube amps are an exception. They can be very power hungry, but it’s difficult to buy such tech today compared to class D etc.

There's also an absolutely massive difference in audio quality between a HomePod or Sonos anything and a proper amp + speakers.

A 500W amp is probably a class A and can't really be made more efficient. It would still be 500W in 2024. Decades ago there were more efficient setups too, though of course now they sound better and also have lots more features and connectivity.

NB: the D in "class D" doesn't stand for "digital".

Similar to you I had lugged my 7.1 speakers and amp and wires around to every address I’ve had in 20 years. For the current house I had enough and put a HomePod in every room and top tier Samsung bar + satellites + sub. It’s not as good at dimensions as discrete speakers but now I have reflected Atmos Waves off the ceiling and setup was super easy. I had to use the app one time to calibrate but I already had it since I have a Washing machine it connects to.

I never had a “proper” HT setup; my first was an Arc + Sub. I thought it was pretty great, and then I added two Era 300s for rears. My god.

I’m sure things can get better, but I’m pretty happy with my setup as-is. I’d probably splurge on an OLED TV first. I have an 85” Sony X91J that I quite like, but I can’t deny the absolute inky blacks of OLED (just couldn’t justify the price at the time at that size).

I have an old iphone somewhere and I also experienced this frustration. I appreciate you're not compatible with my ios - so give me the one that was. I don't care about whatever features you've added

However, I do suspect app developers don't want to be on the hook for supporting old versions, should they continue to serve things in need of security fixes etc etc. I don't entirely attribute it to malice.

What are you talking about? You can absolutely download the last compatible version of an app:

https://appleinsider.com/inside/ios/tips/how-to-get-apps-for...

I dunno, I ran my mid-2012 MBP until ~October 2021. In that time, I got it serviced once for a screen issue that they fixed under some program (after the warranty period). I think it got security patches as recently as then. That seemed like a solid run to me.

What are computer standards actually? I have two macbook pros from 2015 running still, perfectly fine for regular "computer" usage (non-development).

Not sure why you say this. I know multiple 10+ yo MacBooks still operation.

homepod?

It’s relatively easy to justify supporting only one or two major versions back if you’re writing an iOS app. There are stats out there on how many active devices are on what version, it’s pretty striking. Especially compared to Android.

Gen 1 devices included among their product line was really only the Play 5 (Gen 1).

Every other device, Play 1, Play 5 (Gen 2), AMP, Play 3, Playbar, Playbase, Sub all of these products were made compatible with both S1 & S2 apps.

Outside of the Play 5 (Gen 1) there weren't really many other products people were buying that were left out.

Rosetta supports 32 bit apps. I've read conjecture on here that the removal of 32 bit was due to unresolvable pointer security issues on their 32 bit SDK, which was different than how its done with their 64 bit system.

> but then I’d have to relieve the horror of being forced to submit my email address to Microsoft to install the damn OS.

all it takes to install Windows 11 without an account is to press SHIFT + F10 on the "Connect your internet"-screen and execute this command: OOBE\BYPASSNRO

never in my life have i linked an MS-Account to my personal windows, i always use a local account.

If you turn Apple Intelligence off, how is the UI in iOS 18 any different than the previous version?

> and something has to give

Well yes, the user.

> Nothing [insert company] is shipping seems to be for me, the user.

I have a 90/10 rule when it comes to new products/features these days: they're 90% benefit to the company and 10% benefit to me.

Sounds like your ready for some flavor of Linux

It's called enshittification, and it's pervasive throughout our entire economy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

Apple doesn't have PMs.

At that point it's really a fundamental problem with our society that allows and even incentivizes the growth of such companies.

That suggests it's perhaps about what's good for investors, not what's good for companies themselves.

It's 100% of PE-owned companies.

It’s a company that makes speakers. Unbelievable that it can have such value to be able to be listed on NASDAQ.

My Google Home costs $30 second hand, don’t sound as good, but I’ve not spent a single cent on it after setting it up. What is SONOS doing?

> For whatever reason we don’t as a society let “tech” markets mature. We demand growth long after everyone is satisfied.

That reason is people like more money than less money. No one logs into their brokerage account and invests in Sonos because they have a great product that is growing (or shrinking) at the rate of the speaker market.

People want to see their year end report at least equal the broad market returns.

The directive for all business leaders is to hit those benchmark returns, not pump out a solid speaker for however many years.

And if a private business owner operates their company in a way that lags the market’s returns, then they are basically doing charity work. They’re going to have to pay a lot of cash compared to their competitors who can use RSUs to incentivize employees.

> For whatever reason we don’t as a society let “tech” markets mature. We demand growth long after everyone is satisfied.

The reason is tax law and it applies to all companies not just tech. Removing the double-taxation of dividends would fix so much of our economy.

If you run a stable, no-growth but profitable company, and each year return the profits to the owners (shareholders) in the form of a dividend, that's bad because the income is first taxed when the corporation declares it as income and then again when the shareholders receive the dividend.

If instead you don't issue the dividend, but re-invest to grow the company, then the value of the shares can increase without creating a taxable event for the shareholders.

We could avoid a lot of the boom-bust cycles, enshittification of products and other economic problems if we just structured tax law to encourage stable, profitable companies issuing boring predictable dividends instead of our current system that requires infinite growth.

Amen.

It never really was that at the beginning. It was a good, locally-controlled system which would build itself a wifi mesh (back when that was unheard of) be configured to pick up things like samba/cifs shares and play your library, with some really neat features like combining speakers into stereo pairs or surround systems, and then playing your music and any input devices arbitrarily across these zones you have set up.

At some point they integrated spotify and other similar services, which risked what you talked about, but was fine. There are even third party controller frontends available on linux.

But recently (mid 2024) they delivered an absolute stinker of a new app which routes everything via their cloud, fails to load half the time, barely responds, and looks suspiciously like that grab for control you imagine

They sell "Sonos Radio HD", a subscription based radio service which is supposed to be an upgrade from their free offering.

But as much as I dislike the "new" app, it doesn't push subscribing to this service, so I'm not sure they absolutely want device customers to become subscribers.

...so far, yes. But somebody has to pay all of that new network traffic and cpu cycles ;).

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs. Salespeople are there to sell their product, and fundamentally don't need to understand what the customer wants, or needs.

Why do you say that? My gut reaction is that the opposite is true. Salespeople must understand their customers' wants and needs in order to effectively sell! Engineers are generally a step or two removed from the customers. This may be an unpopular take on HN but I'd wager the people who spend time directly with the customers have a better chance at understanding what they want. Taken a step further, customer support probably has the best understanding of their markets' needs!

Not sure if I agree with an engineer inherently being better here.

The ideal case is having leadership who uses the product, or at least is willing to walk in the shoes of an end-user. Plenty of engineers do not do this either.

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs

As an engineer, I had no idea about:

- what the utility companies wanted when I was working for a SaaS company that printed and processed bills

- what the field service techs wanted when I was writing software for ruggedized windows ce devices

- what the railroad car owners or repairmen wanted when I was working for a company creating a SaaS (https://public.railinc.com/sites/default/files/documents/CRB...)

- I knew nothing about what the healthcare industry needed in the three SaaS companies I worked for including software for health care workers dealing with special needs kids

- the various “enterprises” mostly in the edtech or state and local government space in consulting.

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs. Salespeople are there to sell their product, and fundamentally don't need to understand what the customer wants, or needs.

There's no reason to believe an engineer would understand the customer needs more than a salesperson. I know a lot of engineers who would do literally anything to avoid dealing with a real customer. At the companies I've worked for, engineers don't even talk to customers if there isn't a specific, technical issue they need to be there for. Meanwhile, salespeople actually talk to customers, probably more than anyone except support.

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs. Salespeople are there to sell their product, and fundamentally don't need to understand what the customer wants, or needs.

I think you have that backwards. Sales people absolutely need to understand what they customer wants and needs, or they won't buy it. Engineers just know what they want to build because it's what they want.

But really, Product Managers are the ones who are in the best position to figure it out. They get input from sales, customer service, and engineering, and produce competitive research, and then prioritize from there.

A good CEO is going to listen to their the PMs.

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs.

This is why programmer-driven open source projects are a paragon of usability and have taken over 90% of the mobile phone, desktop, and app market.

> Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs.

I assume you are an engineer? I am too, not judging :-).

Everybody tends to think that they are in a better position to know how the product should look like, I think it's a normal bias.

Not that salespeople are better. I hate the direction Sonos chose. Just saying that engineers are not always the best at understanding what customers want and need (if you asked me, I would say that everybody needs Yubikeys, and yet people actively fight to keep their right to reuse the same weak password everywhere :-) ).

>Engineers are in a better position to understand what the customer wants and needs.

This is one of the key competencies of UX professionals, specifically UX researchers.

I'll second this. UPnP is wisely considered a bad idea and a security liability. mDNS usually just works and has been the foundation for several successful consumer platforms including Chromecast

HTTP/WebSocket relies on a stateful connection! Man that strikes me as so not smart!

Comedically, UPnP was also HTTP, but not as stateful as websockets. Often httpu, http over UDP. And for service discovery, httpu over multicast, pretty much like mdns. I'm surprised that s2 would have broken, given that I'd expect s1 to also need multicast. Maybe Sonos setup a pinhole router via upnp-igd, so devices could talk to each other inside the network, even if multicast was off? It's be interesting to know if any upnp-igd rules were created in s1.

I have, it's called Visual Studio Code and I ditched my old native editor(s) for it.

I'd even suggest that the fact that it's JS based has significantly changed the tech world because the editor itself will run in a browser so it's here https://godbolt.org/ , and here https://codesandbox.io, and here https://www.postman.com/, and here https://aws.amazon.com/pm/cloud9/ and 100s or 1000s of other sites.

> Probably egged on by people telling them they had a much larger hiring pool if they went with JS (which is almost certainly true).

There are many VC funded companies here. How many of you felt pressured to pick a hireable language like JS/Python because if not you couldn't deploy your investor's capital? Like, if you had presented a plan of "I'm going to need 4 graybeards that know Haskell", you'd get denied for not thinking big enough.

As much as I hate Electron apps, I have to admit that there are incredibly, unbelievably well done apps created with it.

VS Code and 1Password 8 do come to mind. Blazingly fast. Low memory footprint. Incredibly reliable.

> AirBnB, UberEats and Facebook are all built with React Native and they have excellent performance.

https://getmcss.com/press/facebook-exits-react-native

> Performance issues: React Native apps are known to have slower performance compared to natively built apps, which can be a drawback for users.

Airbnb has dropped React Native.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32485178

> Facebook

At least on iOS, the Facebook app is not and has never been built with RN. Some features were, but none of the core ones like News Feed. The biggest example of an RN-based feature is Marketplace.

It sounds like a secondary effect. They made a whole ton of really bad design decisions that ruined the product for current hardware, with breaking compatibility with existing kit being icing on the cake.

If the software wasn't a shitshow, they compete in that bracket now via the Ikea Symfonisk range.

They just really need to sort out the damn software.

yeah, so you've gone from walking in to a store and coming out with a single box that you can plug in to power and connect to wifi and get music on, to decision on what amp to buy, and a decision on which of the hundred nearly identical bookshelf speakers to get, a question on whether your amp will drive those speakers. and then you've got to find a store to actually sell you all that stuff. it's an entirely different market from what sonos is providing to customers.

fwiw i did exactly what you're suggesting for my personal use, i've got a wiim pro and a fosi v3 and kanto 5" speakers and i'm very happy with my setup. but i'm a nerd who likes shopping for things like that, and i know enough to know that most people would rather not. and it's not like i saved anything compared to going with a sonos.

edit: and, as i just learned a little further down the thread, you've also got to be careful which model of wiim you buy - the newest and nicest ones don't have airplay.

> I am no audiophile but Sonos is actually quite expensive vs getting some streamer like Wiim with basic cheap amp and any solid speaker brand - KEF, Elac, Klipsh, Polk…

The whole point is Sonos is easy. One product for speakers. Another one for a sub (which most people don't even need). Ok now you're done. And then there's people who really don't have space for all that.

Who actually uses the app? I only used it for setup. My Era 300 works great and ive never touched the app.

Also what brands make speakers that sound just as good for the price and simplicity of setup? Asking legitimately not a jab.

I've been using Sonophone on iOS since all this kicked off. Not great, but it works. (For me Sonos breaking NAS media server support was killer, and Sonophone can handle it).

Had this not happened sledgehammers would have been going through speakers.

I would still prefer they rolled back to the old app, or made it as an optional re-release.

If you run Home Assistant already, there are some good Sonos solutions in there.

The actual Sonos integration still works (IIRC) with most of my speakers, in that I can use them as targets in automations involving audio (sees them on network and integrates directly).

The AirSonos add-in makes the Gen1 devices show up on your network as AirPlay targets. IME, AirSonos can be a little buggy since you're going through a bridge but not enough to really matter. It's functional value far exceeds the frustration (90% of the time it works 100% of the time).

With all this, you might be stuck with the old room names set when you had access to the Sonos native app. I think AirSonos lets me mask those names, but every now and then I have to remember that, oh yeah, the Play3 labeled Kitchen is actually now actually bedroomxyz. But again, it works for all intents and purposes. I can airplay from sonos, audible, etc to my gen1 sonos equipment, and that's waaaay better than tossing them into a chinese river (recycling) or a local landfill.

The EEVBlog video about the "Fronos" project (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeIk-4ItQ70) involved embedding a new amp with bluetooth into the Play:5 chasis, and there are certainly amps these days you could consider that have built-in airplay. Something for the project queue. For me, using the above with Home Assistant keeps this project at the bottom of the queue, though it's probably the "right" solution long term.

For a CEO of a public company this is about as close to a perp walk with your stuff in a cardboard box as it gets.

$2 million plus his unvested shares. Plus the millions he’s made over his time as CEO. I reckon he will be just fine.

Sonos makes great hardware. Those little mini speaker voice assistant things aren’t even in the same ball park. If they stick to their target audience they’ll be fine.

I use Sonos with Apple Music. Sonos has always been worse than Apple's app at browsing and searching (no idea who to blame for this, not the point), but I'd still use because it freed my phone/computer from the streaming duties. The speakers would handle it all once I got the stream started, and I wouldn't need to worry about being in range.

Also, multiroom. AirPlay does it OK. BT does not.

Now I'm using AirPlay, because it's working more reliably than the Sonos app. Which is a surprise, because it used to be the other way around.

If Sonos goes away, I guess I'll switch to HomePods? I'd rather not, given the prices and reliability, but I really can't imagine going to BT.

This is a more reasonable take. A single bad app launch cannot be the sole cause of a company falling apart to the point where they need to fire the CEO.

Boards are typically loyal to their CEOs (if the stock and revenue are performing well). They'll never fire a CEO who's coming out of a double-digit percentage growth last quarter.

Thus, the reason he fell out of the boards' favor is the low performance primarily and this was the last straw indeed.

I hated that I had to enable precise location. I didn’t return mine, but damn that pissed me off.

Snapcast is really good. I use it too. And on a recent Ask HN thread, I saw that someone had implemented it for ESP32 chips, so now I will try that out too.

Unfortunately the wiim mini doesn't support the google cast ecosystem, only the more expensive devices. But the more expensive devices don't support airplay, which seems like an odd choice.