Why the weak nuclear force is short range
36 comments
·January 11, 2025somat
mmcnickle
One thing I'm not clear on when watching his videos is whether what he's describing is an established scientific interpretation, or his own thoughts as someone who has extensive knowledge on optical engineering (vs theory).
Very enjoyable and thought provoking stuff though!
Edit: spelling
jagrsw
If we wanted to model the universe as a set of equations or a cellular automaton, how complex would that program be?
Could a competent software engineer, even without knowing the fundamental origins of things like particle masses or the fine-structure constant, capture all known fundamental interactions in code?
I guess I'm trying to figure out the complexity of the task of universe creation, assuming the necessary computational power exists. For example, could it be a computer science high school project for the folks in the parent universe (simulation hypothesis). I know that's a tough question :)
whatshisface
Our present best guess is that cellular automatons would be an explosively difficult way to simulate the universe because BQP (the class of problems that can be related to simulating a quantum system for polynomial time) is probably not contained in P (the class of problems Turing machines can solve in polynomial time).
IIAOPSW
Well, Newton thought he could do it with just 3 lines, and we've all been playing code golf ever since.
dmos62
Stephen Wolfram has been taking a stab at it. Researching fundamental physics via computational exploration is how I'd put it. https://www.wolframphysics.org/
cjfd
He is basically a crackpot. Any attempt at fundamental physics that doesn't take quantum mechanics into account is.... uhm.... how to put this.... 'questionable'.
cjfd
Horribly complex and/or impossible.
(1) quantum mechanics means that there is not just one state/evolution of the universe. Every possible state/evolution has to be taken into account. Your model is not three-dimensional. It is (NF * NP)-dimensional. NF is the number of fields. NP is the the number of points in space time. So, you want 10 space-time points in a length direction. The universe is four-dimensional so you actually have 10000 space-time points. Now your state space is (10000 * NF)-dimensional. Good luck with that. In fact people try to do such things. I.e., lattice quantum field theory but it is tough.
(2) I am not really sure what the state of the art is but there are problems even with something simple like putting a spin 1/2 particle on a lattice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermion_doubling
(3) Renormalization. If you fancy getting more accuracy by making your lattice spacing smaller, various constants tend to infinity. The physically interesting stuff is the finite part of that. Calculations get progressively less accurate.
Aardwolf
I do wonder if you'd want to implement a sort of 3D game engine that simulates the entire universe, if somehow the weird stuff quantum physics and general relativity do (like the planck limit, the lightspeed limit, discretization, the 2D holographic bound on amount of stuff in 3D volumes, the not having an actual value til measured, the not being able to know momentum and speed at the same time, the edge of observable universe, ...) will turn out to be essential optimizations of this engine that make this possible.
Many of the quantum and general relativity behaviors seem to be some kind of limits (compared to a newtonian universe where you can go arbitrarily small/big/fast/far). Except quantum computing, that one's unlocking even more computation instead...
jcranmer
> Could a competent software engineer, even without knowing the fundamental origins of things like particle masses or the fine-structure constant, capture all known fundamental interactions in code?
I don't think so.
In classical physics, "all" you have to do is tot up the forces on every particle and you get a differential equation that is pretty easy to numerically work with. Scale is a challenge all of its own, and of course you'd ideally need to learn about all the numerical issues you can run into. But the math behind Runge-Kutta methods isn't that advanced (really, you just need some calculus to even explain what you're doing in the first place), so that's pretty approachable to a smart high schooler.
But when you get to quantum mechanics, it's different. The forces aren't described in a way that's amenable to tot-up-all-the-forces-on-every-particle, which is why you get stuff like https://xkcd.com/1489/ (where the explainer is unable to really explain anything about the strong or weak force). As an arguably competent software engineer, my own attempts to do something like this have always resulted in my just bouncing off the math entirely. And my understanding of the math--as limited as it is--is that some things like gravity just don't work at all with the methods we have at hand to us, despite us working at it for 50 years.
By way of comparison, my understanding is that our best computational models of fundamental forces struggle to model something as complicated as an atom.
jules
The universe is already modeled that way. Differential equations are a kind of continuous time and space version of cellular automata, where the next state at a point is determined by the infinitesimally neighboring states.
harha_
How complex? I'm no physicist nor an expert at this, but AFAIK we aren't really capable of simulating even a single electron at the quantum scale right now? Correct me if I'm wrong.
brabel
> Only stiff fields can have standing waves in empty space, which in turn are made from “particles” that are stationary and vibrating. And so, the very existence of a “particle” with non-zero mass is a consequence of the field’s stiffness.
It's really difficult to reconcile "standing waves in empty space" with "stiff fields". If the space is truly empty, then the field seems to be an illusion?
If we think about fields as the very old concept of aether, then it actually makes more intuitive sense. Stiffness then becomes simply the viscosity of the aether.
But I don't think this is where this article is trying to get us!!
mjburgess
fields are a non-mechanical aether, more precisely they are lorentz invarient (ie., their motion is the same for all observers)
keepamovin
And if you can hop from each standing wave node to the next, you can teleport, or move ridiculously fast by moving discretely instead of continuously. What if you could tune the wavelength of these standing waves with particles stationary and vibrating?
I like the speaker on water / styrofoam particle demonstration of standing waves.
at_a_remove
[delayed]
Timwi
What makes me skeptical here is that the author claims that fields have a property that is necessary to explain this, and yet physicists have not given that property a name, so he has to invent one (“stiffness”). If the quantity appears in equations, I find it hard to believe that it was never given a name. Can anyone in the field of physics elucidate?
sigmoid10
The author isn't inventing anything. He's just dumbing it down in an extreme way so that non-physicists could have the faintest hope of understanding it. Wich seems odd, because if you actually want to understand any of this you should prepare to spend two or three years in university level math classes first. The truth is that in reality all this is actually a lot more complex. In the Higgs field (or any simple scalar field for that matter) for example, there is a free parameter that we could immediately identify as "mass" in the way described in the article. But weirdly enough, this is not the mass of the Higgs boson (because of some complicated shenanigans). Even more counterintuitive, fermionic (aka matter) fields and massive bosonic fields (i.e. the W and Z bosons mentioned in the article) in the Standard Model don't have any mass term by themselves at all. They only get something that looks (and behaves) like a mass term from their coupling to the Higgs field. So it's the "stiffness" of the Higgs field (highly oversimplified) that gives rise to the "stiffness" of the other fields through complex interactions governed by symmetries. And to put it to the extreme, the physical mass you can measaure in a laboratory is something that depends on the energy scale at which you perform your experiments. So even if you did years of math and took an intro to QFT class and finally think you begin to understand all this, Renormalization Group Theory comes in kicks you back down. If you go really deep, you'll run into issues like Landau Poles and Quantum Triviality and the very nature of what perturbation theory can tell us about reality after all. In the end you will be two thirds through grad school by the time you can comfortably discuss any of this. The origin of mass is a really convoluted construct and these low-level discussions of it will always paint a tainted picture. If you want the truth, you can only trust the math.
azalemeth
I think perhaps the 'maths' at the bottom is a bit of a retelling of the Yukawa potential which you can get in a "relatively understandable" way from the Klein-Gordon equation. However, the KG equation is very very wrong!
Perhaps an approach trying to actually explain the Feynman propagators would be more helpful? Either way, I agree that if someone wanted to understand this all properly it requires a university education + years of postgrad exposure to the delights of QED / electroweak theory. If anyone here wants a relatively understandable deep dive, my favourite books are Quantum Field Theory for the Gifted Amateur [aka graduate student] by Stephen Blundell [who taught me] and Tom Lancester [his former graduate student], and also Quarks and Leptons by Halzel and Martin. It is not a short road.
sigmoid10
The Yukawa potential is also just a more "classical" limit of an inherently quantum mechanical process. Sure you can explain things with it and even do some practical calculations, but if you plan on going to the bottom of it it'll always fail. If you want to explain Feynman propagators correctly you basically have to explain so many other things first, you might as well write a whole book. And even then you're trapped in the confines of perturbation theory, which is only a tiny window into a much bigger world. I really don't think it is possible to convey these things in a way that is both accurate (in the sense that it won't lead to misunderstandings) and simple enough so that people without some hefty prerequisites can truly understand it. I wish it were different. Because this is causing a growing rift between scientists and the normal population.
awanderingmind
I haven't read the other two, but I'll second 'Quarks and Leptons'. I do believe it's Halzen though, rather than Halzel...
awanderingmind
Fortuitously the author of the posted article also has a series on the Higgs mechanism (with the math, but still including some simplifications): https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-ph...
sigmoid10
Those posts would really benefit from some math typesetting in latex.
whatshisface
It does have a name, it's called "coupling." A spring (to physicists all linkages are springs :-) ) couples a pair of train cars, and a coupling constant attaches massive fields to the higgs field.
rachofsunshine
He addresses this in the comments. The term that corresponds to "stiffness" normally just gets called "mass", since that is how it shows up in experiments.
Roughly put:
- A particle is a "minimum stretching" of a field.
- The "stiffness" corresponds to the energy-per-stretch-amount of the field (analogous to the stiffness of a spring).
- So the particle's mass = (minimum stretch "distance") * stiffness ~ stiffness
The author's point is that you don't need to invoke virtual particles or any quantum weirdness to make this work. All you need is the notion of stiffness, and the mass of the associated particle and the limited range of the force both drop out of the math for the same reasons.
fermisea
It's nonsense. The fact that the particle is massive is a direct cause of the fact that the interactions are short ranged.
The nuance is this: Naturally, in a field theory the word "particle" is ill-defined, thus the only true statement one can make is that: the propagator/green function of the field contains poles at +-m, which sort of hints at what he means by stiffness.
As a result of this pole, any perturbations of the field have an exponential decaying effect. But the pole is the mass, by definition.
The real interesting question is why Z and W bosons are massive, which have to do with the higgs mechanism. I.e., prior to symmetry breaking the fields are massless, but by interacting with the Higgs, the vacuum expectation value of the two point function of the field changes, thus granting it a mass.
In sum, whoever wrote this is a bit confused and just doesn't have a lot of exposure to QFT
fermisea
Actually upon further reading I realize that the author actually goes deeper into what I thought, so it's not nonsense, it's actually a simplified version of what I tried to write.
But I don't particularly like the whole "mass vs not mass" discussion as it's pointless
randomtoast
TLDR; It is short range primarily because the underlying fields (those of the W and Z bosons) are “stiff,” causing any disturbance to die off exponentially at distances much smaller than an atom’s diameter. In quantum language, that same stiffness manifests as the nonzero masses of the W and Z bosons, so their corresponding force does not effectively propagate over long distances—hence it appears “weak” and short-range.
XorNot
Urgh, I'm half way through this and I hate it.
The problem is it's upfront that "X thing you learned is wrong" but is then freely introducing a lot of new ideas without grounding why they should be accepted - i.e. from sitting here knowing a little physics, what's the intuition which gets us to field "stiffness"? Stiff fields limit range, okay, but...why do we think those exist?
The article just ends the explanation section and jumps to the maths, but fails to give any indication at all as to why field stiffness is a sensible idea to accept? Where does it come from? Why are non-stiff fields just travelling around a "c", except that we observe "c" to be the speed of light that they travel around?
When we teach people about quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle even at a pop-sci level, we do do it by pointing to the actual experiments which build the base of evidence, and the logical conflicts which necessitate deeper theory (i.e. you can take that idea, and build a predictive model which works and here's where they did that experiment).
This just...gives no sense at all as to what this stiffness parameter actually is, why it turned up, or why there's what feels like a very coincidental overlap with the Uncertainty principle (i.e. is that intuition wrong because actually the math doesn't work out, is this just a different way of looking at it and there's no absolute source of truth or origin, what's happening?)
andyferris
I agree this doesn't gel well with the pop-science approach.
However, it is actually a similar approach to how De Broglie, Schrodinger, and others originally came up with their equations for quantum behavior - we start with special relativity and consider how a wave _must_ behave if its properties are going to be frame-independent, and follow the math from there. That part is equation (*), and the article leads with a bit of an analogy of how we might build a fully classical implemenation of it in an experiment (strings, possibly attached to a stiff rubber sheet) so we get some everyday intuition into the equation's behavior. So from my point of view, I found it very interesting.
(What the article doesn't really get into is why certain fields might have S=0 and others not, what the intuition for the cause of that is, etc. It also presupposes you have bought into quantum field theory in the first place, and wish to consider the fundamental "wavicles" that would emerge from certain field equations, and that you aren't looking closely at the EM force or spin or any other number of things normally encountered before learning about the weak force).
lokimedes
In all honesty, this gives a delightful if frightening look into how physicists are thinking amongst themselves. As a (former) particle physicist myself, I can’t remember the number of times an incredulous engineer has confronted me with “the truth” about physics. But you see, for practicing physicists, the models and theories are fluid and actually up for discussion and interpretation, that’s our job after all. The problem is that the official output is declared to be immutable laws of nature, set in formulae and dogmatic conventions. That said, I agree that he is trading one possible fallacy for another here, but the beauty of the thing is that the “stiffness” explanation is invoking less assumptions than the quantum one - which physicists agree is a “good thing” (Occam’s razor).
xigency
There definitely seems to be a modern trend of over complication in physics along with the voodoo-like worship of math. Humbly enough, people have only come to understand the equations for an apple falling out of a tree within the last 500 years, and that necessitated the invention of Calculus.
What's more distressing than the insular knowledge cults of modern physics is the bizarre fixation on unfalsifiable philosophical interpretation.
That just makes it incomprehensible to outsiders when they quibble over the metaphors used to explain the equations that are used to guess what may happen experimentally. (Rather than admitting that any definition is an abstraction and any analogies or metaphors are merely pedagogical tools.)
My kneejerk reaction: Give me the equations. If they are too complicated give me a computer simulation that runs the equations. Now tell me what your experiment is and show me how to plug the numbers so that I may validate the theory.
If I wanted to have people wage over my mind concerning what I should believe without evidence, I would turn back to religion rather than science.
Anyway, I hope this situation improves in the future. Maybe some virtual particle will appear that better mediates this field (physics).
Y_Y
I had very much the same feeling. Honestly this might be all true, but it's got a vibe I don't like. I did QFT in my PhD and have read plenty of good and bad science exposition, and it doesn't feel right.
I can't point at any outright mistakes, but for example I think the dismissal of the common interpretation of virtual particles in Feynman diagrams is not persuasive. If you think the prevailing view among experts is wrong then the burden of proof is high, perhaps right than you can reach in am article pitched so low, but I don't feel like reading his book.
dist-epoch
> introducing a lot of new ideas without grounding
The grounding is 3 years of advanced math.
There is an interesting video essay by the Huygens Optics channel where some simulations of these field effects are considered.
Turning Waves Into Particles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMP5Pbx8I4s
And if unfamiliar, that channel constantly delivers high quality thought provoking content on the nature of light.