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TSMC begins producing 4-nanometer chips in Arizona

Aissen

I wished we used the node names, like TSMC N4/N4P/N4X, because nanometers are meaningless.

arnaudsm

Are transistors per square mm a better metric ?

stingraycharles

As such I’m going to assume it’s the least impressive variant of 4NM.

Over2Chars

About time.

I seem to recall some detail about how they don't do the packaging, and that' still on the mother island.

This suggests that may be the case: https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/04/tsmc_amkor_arizona/

It's a move in the right direction, but not as much as may be needed.

dotdi

Can't wait to see the factory in Germany also starting to pump out chips.

Cumpiler69

German TSMC fab will produce 16nm there, not 4nm though. Useful for the auto industry but much lower margin and less strategically important than 4nm fab in the US.

KronisLV

That's still nice, especially considering that it’s somewhere between Haswell and Broadwell from 2014.

Maybe not the kind of progress or initiative that gets headlines, but neither is it trying to push as far as what Intel has been trying to do for the past few years.

Cumpiler69

Sure, but coming dead last behind Taiwan, Korea, US, Japan and China in the race to cutting edge semiconductor manufacturing is nothing to brag about. That's like celebrating getting the consolation prize for coming last.

This means you're getting the lowest industry margins, meaning less profits, less money for R&D, less wages and also less geopolitical leverage. This is nothing to celebrate but should be an alarm clock for our elected leader to wake the f up.

A lot of semi research is done in the EU, like at IMEC in Belgium, but few of it ends up commercialized by EU companies, so EU taxpayer money gets spent but other nations get to reap the rewards.

leoc

Strategic for that same German auto industry, though. I assume that the Covid disruption to the supply of boring but essential microcontrollers for cars was a wake-up call.

Speaking of the leading edge, though: while industrial policy, like other kinds of investment, is easier with the benefit of hindsight, there must be some regret at having let Global Foundries drop out of the peloton.

UltraSane

How much does Germany's very expensive electricity affect TSMC's costs?

dtquad

So many people wanted this to fail.

UltraSane

Why?

YetAnotherNick

Many commenters on HN have this weird idea that if Taiwan is slightly ahead of competition, US would defend Taiwan against a country with nukes. Or that TSMC superiority is Taiwan's national security issue.

UltraSane

The US would probably defend Taiwan if the CCP invaded it. I don't think we would ever use nukes.

alecco

Previous discussion (16 hours ago)

Apple will soon receive 'made in America' chips from TSMC's Arizona fab (tomshardware.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42699977#42703197

wdb

I wished they produced the chips in Europe instead of United States.

UltraSane

Europe really dropped the ball on semiconductor manufacturing.

gswdh

[dead]

gazchop

We should have our own sovereign comparable technology companies in Europe by now.

Fail.

Sold the fundamental industries out to Philips who sold it to the Chinese.

Cumpiler69

They do in Dresden Germany, but not nearly as cutting edge as the ones in US and Taiwan. US is a more useful strategic ally for Taiwan than EU. Not to mention the more expensive energy in Germany vs the US.

EU finds out the hard way that not having had energy independence plus a weak/non-existent military relying mostly on the US, has costly second order externalities that voters never think about or factor in their decisions(I'm European).

The best way to have peace is to always be ready for war. Being a non-armed hippie pacifist nation sounds good in some utopic fantasy world like the Smurfs, but in reality it only invites aggression from powerful despots like Putin and Xi and even your strong ally, the US, can exploit your moment of weakness and security dependence on it, to push its own agenda and trade terms on you.

After all, whenever EU falters, America gains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE-E1lQunm0

jraby3

That's true, but there is a large financial cost to always being ready for war. The US has spent 80 years being the "policeman of the world" for good or bad. Lots of bad decisions but the world also takes for granted the open seas, etc. that come at a great cost to Americans in reduced social services like health insurance and higher education.

freehorse

But being the "policeman of the world" has helped with preserving dollar's status as the major currency for international transactions between third countries, and in particular for oil, which in turn makes the dollar a desirable currency, because everyone has and wants to have dollars, and has allowed the federal central bank to print the trillions of dollars it had been printing over and over without it losing its value. Any other country's currency would have been super-inflated if they did the same.

shafyy

> Lots of bad decisions but the world also takes for granted the open seas, etc. that come at a great cost to Americans in reduced social services like health insurance and higher education.

Thanks for the laugh

throw5959

Nonsense, Americans pay the most for health insurance. It's merely about how you use the money. Same with education. The American economy is so great it could afford an entire second military industrial complex and still have enough money left for healthcare and education.

Cumpiler69

Firstly, you don't need to spend America levels (more than than the next world powers combined) to have an efective military deterrent, since currently most EU member states barely spend 2% GDP on defense which is too little. You can have a strong military AND welfare services if you're smart about your state finances which many EU members are not(looking at you Germany), especially since defense investments create more jobs and innovations flowing back into the state coffers. Switzerland is a good example.

Secondly, America's defense is way more expensive than it needs to be due to a lot of high level corruption and lobbying from the military industrial complex profiteering when it comes to purchasing decisions, where a 10$ bag of bolts is bought by the military for 50K$, shovelings taxpayer money into the right private industry pockets. EU can achieve similar results with way less cost if it wanted to by minimizing this style of corruption but that's easier said than done. The only one rivaling America's military inefficiency is Germany who spends more than France, a nuclear power with aircraft carriers, but can't afford to issue underwear and dog tags to new conscripts.

Thirdly, America's lack of social services is not due to its powerful military, but due to political choices and inefficiencies. It could easily have better welfare if it wanted to since it can afford it with the world's largest GDP, but it chooses not to, since the current status quo is enriching a lot of private enterprises and parasites, while the concept of even more welfare is usually not a popular topic with the US voters which see welfare recipients as lazy and an unnecessary money sink funded by higher taxes on the middle class which they don't want. So their issue is social and political, not economical.

dr_dshiv

For some reason I’m concerned with being able to find the labor required to make this succeed. I really wish them the best.

bwb

There were a ton of media scare articles on this when it came out. It turns out it didn't pan out and staffing sounds solid.

https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/whos-afraid-of-east-asian-mana...

Point #1 on: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-thin...

antirez

The point here would be that after N years, US workers at the site would gain enough insights to replicate the processes with American companies? Because otherwise what's the point? Will TSMC allow that? Because to just have more internal "normal" jobs in the US is a small gain. There is a big ST site here in Catania, while they produce many chips most of the workers are blue collars.

smallerfish

The point is redundancy in case China follows through on their threats to invade.

Pet_Ant

This redundancy makes me worried that the US will view Taiwanese sovereignty as disposable. While the US has given much for the defence of Ukraine, it’s always been careful to make sure it’s not enough for Ukraine to win but only enough to make it expensive for Russia hopping they’ll reconsider. Russia has won there and I suspect they’ll joe be willing to let China have the islands now too.

phantomathkg

Selling the secret sauce to US definitely make Taiwan disposable. But I also bet TSMC doesn't have a choice as whoever in power in US can also impose sanction/tariff or whatever they can to make TSMC to compile.

YetAnotherNick

TSMC being 2-4 years ahead of Samsung/Intel has nothing to do whether US would be willing to go on a nuclear war and move the entire world decades if not millenias back. No one can go on a direct war with a country with nukes unless they are ready for mutually assured destruction.

ForHackernews

Short of nuclear weapons, I'm not sure what would allow Ukraine to "win". Even given all the hardware, Ukraine doesn't have the staff or experience to field a full NATO air wing and integrate it to fight according to NATO combined arms doctrine -- if that even WOULD produce a "win" (there is an untested assumption that a NATO-standard military could trounce Russia)

mytailorisrich

> they’ll be willing to let China have the islands now too

The islands are Chinese. The US back Taiwan as an anti-communist and anti-China (divide and conquer) tactic, including because its location. If the communists had lost the civil war, the mainland and Taiwan would all have remained under ROC control and it would have been interesting to see what the US would have come up with, instead (academic and thought experiment but interesting to imagine nonetheless).

In Ukraine the US don't want to be dragged in a war against Russia and things have played well for them so far (really the US are the only winners so far).

WhereIsTheTruth

"invade" = western propaganda

The proper word is "reunite", as it was agreed with the US

It sure gonna hurt the US Military industrial complex, no war = no money

"1982 U.S.-PRC Joint Communiqué/Six Assurances

As they negotiated establishment of diplomatic relations, the U.S. and PRC governments agreed to set aside the contentious issue of U.S. arms sales to Taiwan. They took up that issue in the 1982 August 17 Communiqué, in which the PRC states “a fundamental policy of striving for peaceful reunification” with Taiwan, and the U.S. government states it “understands and appreciates” that policy. The U.S. government states in the 1982 communiqué that with those statements “in mind,” “it does not seek to carry out a long-term policy of arms sales to Taiwan,” and “intends gradually to reduce its sale of arms to Taiwan, leading, over a period of time, to a final resolution.” The U.S. government also declares “no intention” of “pursuing a policy of ‘two Chinas,’” meaning the PRC and the ROC, “or ‘one China, one Taiwan.’”"

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12503/1

ForHackernews

I know Intel has also opened a site nearby. Rumor is that many of the TSMC staff, having seen the lifestyle of American engineers in Arizona have started quietly applying with Intel.