Who killed the rave?

I have a friend who decided he wanted to try all the drugs.

Weed, LSD, MDMA, Cocaine. He never did heroin (afaik) but tried more than I can recall.

He's very well adjusted and no longer does drugs at all. He doesn't even drink. No bad trauma, no rehab. He justed wanted to try them all to say he had.

> I'd prefer not to introduce into my life

I feel the same. Also, one of my friends developed a very bad condition after that, it was quite scary and depressing. Another one just died after taking a small dose (probably had an existing condition, but still...). there is no reason to take this shit.

Ding ding. This and a lot of the sensation news pieces that came out a few years before, across the nation, that attracted more people for the wrong reasons that prompted things like challenging the local authorities and resulted in the RAVEact

The protest/rally at Toronto City Hall in 2000 was a one-of-a-kind event which united ravers across the city. Organizers set up a mobile stage with sound and lights, had DJ lineup, speeches by public figures (including Olivia Chow), and 10k+ ravers.

Party People Documentary: Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUqlAUh4_3c

Party People Documentary: Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQZAwIHhOnc

"although people getting older with more obligations was certainly a contributing factor as well"

there's always the next generation of young people. the question is: why aren't they as interested in raves than the generations before them?

One thing I like about Berlin is that some clubs explicitly forbid photos. Staff place stickers on the front and back cameras when you enter. Anyone spotted taking photos is kicked out.

It really depends on the club and the culture. In big clubs and venues, it’s more a performance now and statement than it is a club (think Printworks/Afterlife visuals) so everyone is on their phones.

My experience of small intimate clubs in Europe is that people tell each other off for pulling out phones, or there’s just no light in the room - so there’s nothing to photograph. People are there for a good time. If you want a good experience, go for small lesser known artists in small venues. You’ll have fewer people there to record the night.

>I think you are missing something. Clubs have always been the „mothers“ of raves

This is rewriting history. Raves was a british thing, and it was in the open, not in clubs.

Chicago warehouse parties preceded raves and are important for electronic dance music history, but are not raves.

all it takes is a quarry and a sound system .

In California at least, I think ravers hate clubs more than anyone. They’re expensive, inconvenient, and the impression is that they’re for superficial people with more money than sense. Raves are much cheaper ($100 to a see drunk rapper show up 45 min late, or $20 for 6 hours of techno on a better soundsytem), more convenient (more parking, reentry, no lines, chill security), and egalitarian (no VIPs, and acting like one is frowned upon).

The crowd that goes to clubs, well at least mainstream clubs you’d find on Google Maps, seems to have almost no overlap with the crowd that goes to raves. It’s common to try clubbing for a bit in college to see what the hype’s about, then “graduate” to raves.

Pretty much like the modern Bachata/Salsa scene in Europe. Large parties that go from 11pm to sometimes 6am in the morning. Very little alcohol consumed but you pay big to get in to cover the cost of the location and dj's. However many venues will body frisk you for water bottles in an attempt to force you to the bar to buy drinks. At least one large event has stopped that and now provides free water ( https://bachata-fest.com/ ) under the obvious realization that people are there to dance not get shit faced and that bag checking and frisking for water bottles just leads to bad community feelings.

That's why raves typically cost an entrance fee.

I generally agree, but also disagree. The problem with drugs and people is that they usually overdo everything and dont know their limits. Who figures that out can also have their fun 8+ hours even at age, with a limited amount of alcohol(+weed) consumption at a certain constant level ;)

And then there are also that amazing sober ravers who can do 8-12hrs even without any drug. Shouldn't be underestimated how much some people like the music and their trancy dance therapy. (but yeah, those only also buy water/cola/maté).

aka : rave does not scale. It's personal experience, not commercial activity and usually fuelled by youth enthusiasm.

There are all sorts of volunteer roles someone needs to do, from directing parking, to helping in the kitchen, to roaming around at 3am to see if anyone needs help, to working the first aid stand, and a hundred other things. I always sign up for at least a couple of shifts doing something, so feel like part of the "we" helping to put it on, but it's still something I go to as a participant to have fun.

As someone who does something similar, it’s easily both

In Australia these are known as "bush doofs" and are essentially community events - they're organised, run and attended by a group of people rather than an organisation.

You can't buy tickets to them, you have to know someone who's in the group chat for them. You can just turn up on the day if you know where the event is; they're always incredibly remote, usually on a patch of bush (forest) on someone's enormous farm or a national park, pitch a tent, join in, help out where you can. Security is "if you act like a dickhead you'll be asked politely to leave by a bunch of people". There's no financial contribution, except sometimes a hat is passed around if someone had to pay for equipment hire or similar. You can buy drugs there, but only if you know the person you're buying from; usually better to sort yourself out before you go, there won't be anyone advertising anything for sale at the doof.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

The best festivals are co-creative experiences.

If you’re thinking of groups, plural, then you probably know the ones I mean. And yeah, I wear the 20th anniversary tank top to the gym.

Ah, good ol’ type 2 fun, where afterward someone can sell “ride the lightning” tshirts as a fundraiser.

Hey, neighbor. You sure do, and I'm happier for it!

can i get on the list?

Hmmm

Raves died in the 90s for a few reasons.

1. They made dancing illegal (look it up before rage comments).

2. Corporate sponsors moved in.

3. Glow sticks / candy ravers

4. Drugs

5. Police tactics and not being able to be paid off by promoters.

6. The internet (remember map points and info lines?)

7. Models, actresses, famous types going and demanding special service / VIP.

8. DJ as GOD sick gross

9. OG promoters cashing out and not caring. Think Drop Bass and Daft Punk (google it).

10. Techno mainstream / a la hip hop. (DRUGS/S&M)

What sound pollution? There are permits and everything, and woodlands are really, really big. A couple hills over you wouldn't be able to hear a thing.

Honestly, you won't find me on the dance floor. I'll be meandering around listening to the music I love at seismic sound levels, looking at the art exhibits people set up, and chilling with my friends. I just want to soak up the vibes and love everyone and the world for a few days, not dance myself to exhaustion.

The FT is actually entertainingly into this sort of stuff.[0]

Honestly my favourite news outlet these days, despite my being well to the left of their editorial staff. I read it mostly for their drum and bass coverage.

[^0] See https://www.ft.com/content/7796593c-08ac-485c-afe9-a45ac2c28... or https://www.ft.com/content/084bab07-c5cf-4b25-ba7d-769af6b42..., but there's loads.

Well said. I like to imagine some old guy holding the pink FT pages in a London cafe, peering over his reading glasses while egg drips off of his toast onto his pleated houndstooth trousers.

From what I’ve gathered, nowadays, “raving” refers to all legal parties that are posted on RA as well. The biggest difference is, younger people associate specific venues/music as “rave”s, where mainstream music isn’t played, and people are more likely to party in the brains. It’s just the definition has shifted since the 2000s.

I wouldn’t discredit FT writers as well, as I’m assuming they’re writing for a specific audience.

I would assume their current writers have been to raves

Raving has been around for 50 years, you’d think a paper could describe it correctly if not know the ins and outs of the current scene.

>or knowing about the underground scene?

Well, yes, it's just another kind of "underground scene", you know, the ones on private islands.

I'd expect them to not write a piece about something with which they have no familiarity and that their target audience has no particular interest in.

That doesn't make sense to me. Anecdotally, most people I know who love actual raves generally didn't go to clubs, for one.

But also more broadly, I've heard from multiple local venues that one big change is that EDM crowds don't drink as much. This means venues make A LOT less money, and that means fewer venues. If I had to guess, another factor is that younger crowds don't have the buying power older generations had, so if anything they would be MORE likely to go to an "illegal" rave with no cover and do some drugs instead of drinking.

Basically, to me, economic forces suggests that the rave crowd and club crowd are NOT correlated.

edit: and more anecdotal data for you, I use to go to a lot of clubs when I was young (and fewer raves), but now that I'm older me and my group tend to either throw our own parties at home with our own gear, or go to "listening bar" type venues that wouldn't typically be classified as a "club." We're all too old to drink high priced shitty beer and deal with lines and bouncers. I'd rather be able to have a top sound system, order an IPA or cocktail, and maybe even have a seat to lounge in!

Maybe those who go to raves are more likely to go to clubs too, but it doesn't mean that a decrease in club attendance means a decease in rave attendance. It may simply mean that clubs are not the preferred destination for partygoers anymore.

To support that, it looks like music festival attendance is going up over the years. Music festivals are, I think, closer to raves than they are to night clubs, which, by the same logic, would suggest an increase in rave attendance.

Also worth mentioning that some of what was called a rave before is now a club. There is a difference between occupying a decommissioned soviet building after the fall of the Berlin Wall and a fancy club on high valued real estate, even though it used to be the same place.

Strong negative correlation? Can't attend both events, and most people only have the weekend to attend max one event.

To be fair, RA is /the/ place to post more organized events. Even my local underground spot posts there. (Yes, it's underground, ~20 people show up to the small shows)

At least near me I've seen a resurgence the last couple years.

The freedom and optimism is always rooted to the communal and ritual release in dance, the freedom to be as you are, or dance as you are. This gets harder and harder when there is fear of "documentation', if one can't "dance right" or "doesn't fit in".

Don't beat yourself up too hard though, you can always pickup a DJ controller and start again :)

And too: the scene has radically shifted, so being a promoter is a large part of the work. It's kind of like eSports in a way.

Indeed, I've written about this a little bit [1], they are growing in popularity due to a number of factors, one of which being, living in the moment. DVS1 has spoken with great eloquence on this subject as well [2]. These policies are the norm in Berlin places like Tresor. The industry culture has been really saturated by social media, live sets and destination sets [3], so many events are differentiating themselves by taking an different approach. It was a cool strategy when it started with Be At TV (RIP), (old) Boiler Room & (maybe) BBC R1 but it's lost its novelty at times I feel.

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/DDkjBJhP1Sh/?utm_source=ig_web_c... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISoPHerYsn4&t=1181s [3] Think Cerce, Boilerroom

Oof - beautiful writing.

That sounds like it was out of Last Night A DJ Saved My Life [1]!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Night_a_DJ_Saved_My_Life_...

When my mom was teen, she says the way they had the most fun was to go to dancing parties in people's houses and sometimes in some special venue for younger people. That was in the 60's. As I grew up in the 80's we had nothing like that, we just went to night clubs or some street full of bars/restaurants. Dancing was mostly a thing you did by yourself, like in most night clubs still these days, not like she describes, with "their faces touching" :D.

It seems to me that every single generation changed and there needs not be an external reason for that other than young people wanting to do things the way they see fit, which normally is anything different from what their parents see as ideal.

It's interesting how the creation of the internet still hasn't caused real estate prices to plummet.

Even two years of covid couldn't do it.

More like "How come the younger generations aren't doing <Fun thing>?"

Because they can't afford it.

Also my belief is that people don't do anything anymore because nobody gets really bored anymore. Boredom is a powerful motivator to make plans, set up clubs, find interests, meet people etc.

Now you just swipe through instagram for a few minutes and boom, no more boredom.

It's shocking how often the answer to real estate issues is "land value tax would fix this!"

> It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate.

Why is it shocking? The Internet is the current Big Thing that's upending everything the way previous Big Things (steam engine, movable type, etc) did. And real estate prices are one of the central coordination mechanisms for arranging things in the physical world.

Since people keep trying to draw the connection, I’ll try my hand.

The Internet is the most recent technology that is enabled a small number of individuals to become vastly wealthy alongside, of course, a certain lax style of government. As wealth inequality increases, more of the money in the economy becomes tied up in wealthy people’s investments and savings, which inflates asset prices.

This is the housing theory of everything

These kind of parties are still happening. At least in Europe this is still a thing.

I’m in my thirties and have been involved with these kind of parties for at least ten years.

A general trend that I have been observing for years though is what usually is being referred to as „TikTok Guys“. This involves guys and girls in their early twenties wearing fetish outfits and doing lots of drugs.

I don’t care about people coming in fetish outfits to our parties but I don’t want some young guy overdose on one our parties. In practice this means that we have been much more careful about who knows when and where a party is happening.

This is still how we do it in Mexico, but instead of the woods, its in a Arroyo, wedged between a mountain and a beach. Good stuff.

These parties existed in England in the late 2000s. I went to a few, and they usually resembled a zombie apocalypse.

No idea what the UK rave scene is like these days.

Gen≠Z here, and that does sound like the best party ever.

As a Gen Z who was a shut in long before COVID, I disagree. I knew plenty of people who loved going out before, during, and after lockdown. I'd guess only a fraction of people who liked going out before found the joy of staying home. But likewise I'm sure there were some who found it miserable at home and after lockdown vowed to be more outgoing.

I hesitate to write a lot of things off to COVID because, if you look at some presentations/papers from early on in the pandemic, a lot of things probably changed less than the "experts" thought they would. That said, I also see various things that were on a downward trajectory or cruising on momentum being given a downward shove by COVID.

Swing dance is down overall compared to ten+ years ago in NA. There are way less events. The events don't go as late either. It used to be that almost every event would go to 5am. The crowd at these events is much older now too. It used to be primarily under 30 and now it's well over 30.

The risks are called living your life – there is a inherent risk with traveling, hiking, wandering around as a kid, and almost any activity outside of staring at a screen.

Having been to raves, another issue you run into if you go there to meet people is that the kind of people who will hook up at raves probably don't want anything serious. It's a super hedonistic environment. If you want more than a one night stand any other form of dating is better.

>I guarantee that only about one in five male clubbers were truly "only there for the music". Maybe fewer than that.

Clubs aren't really raves though. Yes, most single people going to clubs are looking to hook up - all a "club" really is, is a bar with a DJ. A real rave typically doesn't even sell alcohol. But I'd wager that most single people going to actual raves (in warehouses or outdoors) are either too high to even think about hooking up, or really are there for the music and to dance - at least through the 1990's and early 2000s. I'm in the latter group, I'm a guy who went to raves (in warehouses and outdoors) for the music, as did everyone else I knew. Nobody was trying to hook up, it was definitely about getting our dance on.

[flagged]

Exactly. People used to organize stuff in the middle of some forest and miraculously hundreds of people showed up.

The craziest thing happened this NYE. I live in the country, more or less Bay Area, at the end of a long (2-3mi) dead end road. My neighbor's house is empty and posted for sale. Someone broke in and threw a rave there. The party was advertised online and they were selling tickets:

https://monosnap.com/direct/YxtOr5VARRXTAIr2Ej9ae5KCjAjRfn

The owners (who live across the street) confronted them immediately. Bouncers dressed in "security" shirts forced them away. It took 1.5 hours for the sheriffs to show up.

The whole neighborhood is traumatized.

Exactly. All the places I went to 30 years ago for a rave are now nice areas.

Someone would call the cops for the amount of noise now before the party even started.

Then factor in fentanyl.

Maybe most of all though, in the mid 90s electronic music was a new thing in the US.

The first rave I went to , I really didn't even know what I was going to. The reason I stopped going was the novelty had completely worn off. Amazing times but the falloff was rather steep.

This is it. The phone scrolling has become so addicting that people just go on their phones. And audio quality. You can enjoy the music sometimes at better quality in your own home and scrolling all the same.

> My word association of "rave" is "festival" though.

hehe, my definition of a rave is a temporary venue where at least 2 people have asked if you need help finding Molly.

There is a bisect of "festival" goers and "ravers", but many ravers are priced out of festivals, but may attend raves weekly or monthly.

Both of these imho, are different than your traditional licensed club that primarily serves alcohol and is 21+ exclusive.

I believe that, 15 years ago was peak deadmau5, skrillex, dubstep explosion, EDC expanding everywhere. No way globally its more popular now then it was in the 2010s

I mean music festivals in the US are booming as well. EDC attendance more than doubled last year.

Yes, but I'll just speak to the part about dancing: it is true that (a) many people find it fun and rewarding and (b) many people don't find it easy and/or natural a priori. However, given the right style, music, AND a few (or possibly many) months of deliberate practice to make it "click" in your brain, many people could move from category (b) to (a). Searching through this parameter space requires time and effort. This is a thread about EDM, and I spent some time trying to like EDM because it was cool, until I realized that it's not for me, and I have zero inclination to dance to it unless I'm on MDMA. On the other hand, swing, salsa, bachata ended up being absolutely my jam -- after months of deliberate practice, as none of these musical styles were super familiar to me at the outset.

For a lot folks, partnered dance forms are nothing short of life changing, and they tend to appeal to analytical introverts; if you haven't tried already, go sign up for your local lindy hop lessons, and keep your expectations low. There's no downside, at the very least you'll get some exercise.

There’s nothing wrong with you if you’re not into dancing. It’s 100% okay to be introverted and happy. Many people are. The only thing I would say is it might be worth the effort to try to get out and find some of your people, whoever they are. Feeling uncomfortable doing things like that is also totally normal, and imo sometimes feeling uncomfortable is an essential part of the human experience. I’m fairly extroverted and still feel awkward, anxious, or uncomfortable pretty regularly.

I would highly recommend talking this through with a therapist! I don't think anyone on the internet has the time/understanding/or context to tell you either way in any satisfying manner that would settle your confusion. It is never too late to introspect and learn about who you are as a person, and a therapist is a great sounding board at the very minimum.

Tons of people just go and imbibe in various things and just sway to the music or the beat. It really is a blank slate to make it what you want, and i think that's why its popular - many types of people all go to them for many different reasons.

> Can anyone relate?

I can relate with everything you have said and my life experience seems to be similar to yours. When I was younger in the 90s I forced myself to go clubbing a few times. I hated everything about it, frankly. Even so, I can't help but feel like I'm missing out on important life experiences when I read comments here.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that threads like these suffer from selection bias because, objectively speaking, most people in real life do not go clubbing or raving in their adulthood...

It was burned years ago.

Give it two years or so to fade. There’s just not enough low cost big spaces to hold shit in.

> The production value is quite high now and still improving so I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison

A few reasons:

1. security at official music events are often complete arseholes and can totally destroy the vibe. Think of all the row rent chip on their shoulder wannabe cops, then place them in a field of drunk partying adults with complete power and almost zero oversight (+)

2. Advertising everywhere

3. Massively overpriced food and drink

(+) While I fully understand that once you've got multiple thousands of humans in a field, you do need security, at small illegal raves - say a few hundred people - there's no need and the vibe without feeling like you're being watched is spectacular.

> The production value is quite high now and still improving so I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison. There are lots of electronic dance music events on boats, cruiseliners, retired battleships and more.

There will always be people attracted to the underground scene where the production value doesn't rank higher than the energy on the dancefloor.

It's good to have both options but they are very different experiences, the mainstream stuff with high production value is a show, it's meant for people who are going to parties to see specific artists and their shows.

That experience is quite opposite of what a good underground rave is, it's much more raw, less concerned about the surface-level showmanship; artists are there to provide a journey to the ones on the dancefloor but not to be the main star, the main star is supposed to be the party itself.

I really enjoy much more the experience of the underground scene, I don't see phones up in the air recording, I don't see people staring at a light show/screens with AV, the experience of getting lost with a crowd of people, all dancing, interacting among each other.

Personally I think it's quite good to have the mainstream scene, it filters out quite a lot of people who wouldn't belong in an underground rave.

We go for the vibe not the facilities

> I don't see why the illicit rave experience would be so interesting when the facilities would be so lacking in comparison.

I swear if you strip away legal pot and LGBTQ rights (not saying those are bad) we have culturally returned to the 1950s. This is a very conservative period with little interest in or tolerance for actual outside-the-lines culture or experience.

> The article also mentions that earlier ending events made to accommodate aging millennials have seen an unexpected and huge interest from Gen Z

As a millennial in Belgium, my parties started no earlier than 23:00 and ended at 05:00. But maybe it makes sense that this is disappearing? My parents started partying at 19:00

> The article also mentions that earlier ending events made to accommodate aging millennials have seen an unexpected and huge interest from Gen Z

I do not find it surprising. When I was younger (college age and soon after), I wanted events to start sooner and late events oftentimes discouraged me. It sucked even at that age. It is one thing to start dancing at 8pm and have endurance till the early morning, because you feel like it and have nothing to do the next day. And something completely different if you have to wait till 1am till the event starts. You get tired and dumber the next day, but the amount of dancing you got in exchange is just lower.

I was not using stimulants or anything like that and frankly, dropping amount of stimulants use among young people would explain larger younger crowd at earlier events.

> Maybe we just don't want to bro.

There's nothing wrong with it (quite the opposite), but keep in mind that this is not a normal thing. Most generations didn't act like this.

For sure, I think this does however line up with even younger folks who aren't going to generic clubs for a late night. They would just start earlier, bars/etc. and then end earlier. The full night bangers are definitely still very viable (and as crowded as you would like them) in NYC