Who killed the rave?

As someone in the culture 20-30 years ago, it was always something that was underground... not promoted in a traditional sense, and hosted in unpermitted spaces. Usually you wouldn't know until the day of the event where the location actually was.

Much of the time it would be in industrial areas that were pretty deserted and dark at night, far away from any life that would complain about the noise that would go on until at lease sunrise. If outdoors it might be out in the woods, on the edge of an Indian reservation, in the desert, etc. Often there was a gritty sense of danger and some really odd characters you would meet, certainly not helped by the substances they might be on.

What you linked is what I'd call outdoor parties/festivals. Maybe folks today call them raves, but these things existed back then and we certainly didn't.

No need to listen to the gatekeepers. Rave is a verb. Raves are where people rave!

There are all sorts of volunteer roles someone needs to do, from directing parking, to helping in the kitchen, to roaming around at 3am to see if anyone needs help, to working the first aid stand, and a hundred other things. I always sign up for at least a couple of shifts doing something, so feel like part of the "we" helping to put it on, but it's still something I go to as a participant to have fun.

In Australia these are known as "bush doofs" and are essentially community events - they're organised, run and attended by a group of people rather than an organisation.

You can't buy tickets to them, you have to know someone who's in the group chat for them. You can just turn up on the day if you know where the event is; they're always incredibly remote, usually on a patch of bush (forest) on someone's enormous farm or a national park, pitch a tent, join in, help out where you can. Security is "if you act like a dickhead you'll be asked politely to leave by a bunch of people". There's no financial contribution, except sometimes a hat is passed around if someone had to pay for equipment hire or similar. You can buy drugs there, but only if you know the person you're buying from; usually better to sort yourself out before you go, there won't be anyone advertising anything for sale at the doof.

As someone who does something similar, it’s easily both

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

The best festivals are co-creative experiences.

If you’re thinking of groups, plural, then you probably know the ones I mean. And yeah, I wear the 20th anniversary tank top to the gym.

Hey, neighbor. You sure do, and I'm happier for it!

can i get on the list?

Ah, good ol’ type 2 fun, where afterward someone can sell “ride the lightning” tshirts as a fundraiser.

Right on! I missed this summer and the fall classic, but plan to head back to at least one of them this year.

(My social media profile pic is me wearing neon glasses there one year.)

What sound pollution? There are permits and everything, and woodlands are really, really big. A couple hills over you wouldn't be able to hear a thing.

Hmmm

Raves died in the 90s for a few reasons.

1. They made dancing illegal (look it up before rage comments).

2. Corporate sponsors moved in.

3. Glow sticks / candy ravers

4. Drugs

5. Police tactics and not being able to be paid off by promoters.

6. The internet (remember map points and info lines?)

7. Models, actresses, famous types going and demanding special service / VIP.

8. DJ as GOD sick gross

9. OG promoters cashing out and not caring. Think Drop Bass and Daft Punk (google it).

10. Techno mainstream / a la hip hop. (DRUGS/S&M)

The FT is actually entertainingly into this sort of stuff.[0]

Honestly my favourite news outlet these days, despite my being well to the left of their editorial staff. I read it mostly for their drum and bass coverage.

[^0] See https://www.ft.com/content/7796593c-08ac-485c-afe9-a45ac2c28... or https://www.ft.com/content/084bab07-c5cf-4b25-ba7d-769af6b42..., but there's loads.

From what I’ve gathered, nowadays, “raving” refers to all legal parties that are posted on RA as well. The biggest difference is, younger people associate specific venues/music as “rave”s, where mainstream music isn’t played, and people are more likely to party in the brains. It’s just the definition has shifted since the 2000s.

I wouldn’t discredit FT writers as well, as I’m assuming they’re writing for a specific audience.

Well said. I like to imagine some old guy holding the pink FT pages in a London cafe, peering over his reading glasses while egg drips off of his toast onto his pleated houndstooth trousers.

Raving has been around for 50 years, you’d think a paper could describe it correctly if not know the ins and outs of the current scene.

I would assume their current writers have been to raves

>or knowing about the underground scene?

Well, yes, it's just another kind of "underground scene", you know, the ones on private islands.

I'd expect them to not write a piece about something with which they have no familiarity and that their target audience has no particular interest in.

That doesn't make sense to me. Anecdotally, most people I know who love actual raves generally didn't go to clubs, for one.

But also more broadly, I've heard from multiple local venues that one big change is that EDM crowds don't drink as much. This means venues make A LOT less money, and that means fewer venues. If I had to guess, another factor is that younger crowds don't have the buying power older generations had, so if anything they would be MORE likely to go to an "illegal" rave with no cover and do some drugs instead of drinking.

Basically, to me, economic forces suggests that the rave crowd and club crowd are NOT correlated.

edit: and more anecdotal data for you, I use to go to a lot of clubs when I was young (and fewer raves), but now that I'm older me and my group tend to either throw our own parties at home with our own gear, or go to "listening bar" type venues that wouldn't typically be classified as a "club." We're all too old to drink high priced shitty beer and deal with lines and bouncers. I'd rather be able to have a top sound system, order an IPA or cocktail, and maybe even have a seat to lounge in!

Maybe those who go to raves are more likely to go to clubs too, but it doesn't mean that a decrease in club attendance means a decease in rave attendance. It may simply mean that clubs are not the preferred destination for partygoers anymore.

To support that, it looks like music festival attendance is going up over the years. Music festivals are, I think, closer to raves than they are to night clubs, which, by the same logic, would suggest an increase in rave attendance.

Also worth mentioning that some of what was called a rave before is now a club. There is a difference between occupying a decommissioned soviet building after the fall of the Berlin Wall and a fancy club on high valued real estate, even though it used to be the same place.

Strong negative correlation? Can't attend both events, and most people only have the weekend to attend max one event.

To be fair, RA is /the/ place to post more organized events. Even my local underground spot posts there. (Yes, it's underground, ~20 people show up to the small shows)

At least near me I've seen a resurgence the last couple years.

When my mom was teen, she says the way they had the most fun was to go to dancing parties in people's houses and sometimes in some special venue for younger people. That was in the 60's. As I grew up in the 80's we had nothing like that, we just went to night clubs or some street full of bars/restaurants. Dancing was mostly a thing you did by yourself, like in most night clubs still these days, not like she describes, with "their faces touching" :D.

It seems to me that every single generation changed and there needs not be an external reason for that other than young people wanting to do things the way they see fit, which normally is anything different from what their parents see as ideal.

It's interesting how the creation of the internet still hasn't caused real estate prices to plummet.

Even two years of covid couldn't do it.

> It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate.

Why is it shocking? The Internet is the current Big Thing that's upending everything the way previous Big Things (steam engine, movable type, etc) did. And real estate prices are one of the central coordination mechanisms for arranging things in the physical world.

It's shocking how often the answer to real estate issues is "land value tax would fix this!"

Since people keep trying to draw the connection, I’ll try my hand.

The Internet is the most recent technology that is enabled a small number of individuals to become vastly wealthy alongside, of course, a certain lax style of government. As wealth inequality increases, more of the money in the economy becomes tied up in wealthy people’s investments and savings, which inflates asset prices.

This is the housing theory of everything

More like "How come the younger generations aren't doing <Fun thing>?"

Because they can't afford it.

Also my belief is that people don't do anything anymore because nobody gets really bored anymore. Boredom is a powerful motivator to make plans, set up clubs, find interests, meet people etc.

Now you just swipe through instagram for a few minutes and boom, no more boredom.

These kind of parties are still happening. At least in Europe this is still a thing.

I’m in my thirties and have been involved with these kind of parties for at least ten years.

A general trend that I have been observing for years though is what usually is being referred to as „TikTok Guys“. This involves guys and girls in their early twenties wearing fetish outfits and doing lots of drugs.

I don’t care about people coming in fetish outfits to our parties but I don’t want some young guy overdose on one our parties. In practice this means that we have been much more careful about who knows when and where a party is happening.

These parties existed in England in the late 2000s. I went to a few, and they usually resembled a zombie apocalypse.

No idea what the UK rave scene is like these days.

Gen≠Z here, and that does sound like the best party ever.

As a Gen Z who was a shut in long before COVID, I disagree. I knew plenty of people who loved going out before, during, and after lockdown. I'd guess only a fraction of people who liked going out before found the joy of staying home. But likewise I'm sure there were some who found it miserable at home and after lockdown vowed to be more outgoing.

I hesitate to write a lot of things off to COVID because, if you look at some presentations/papers from early on in the pandemic, a lot of things probably changed less than the "experts" thought they would. That said, I also see various things that were on a downward trajectory or cruising on momentum being given a downward shove by COVID.

Swing dance is down overall compared to ten+ years ago in NA. There are way less events. The events don't go as late either. It used to be that almost every event would go to 5am. The crowd at these events is much older now too. It used to be primarily under 30 and now it's well over 30.

The risks are called living your life – there is a inherent risk with traveling, hiking, wandering around as a kid, and almost any activity outside of staring at a screen.

Having been to raves, another issue you run into if you go there to meet people is that the kind of people who will hook up at raves probably don't want anything serious. It's a super hedonistic environment. If you want more than a one night stand any other form of dating is better.

>I guarantee that only about one in five male clubbers were truly "only there for the music". Maybe fewer than that.

Clubs aren't really raves though. Yes, most single people going to clubs are looking to hook up - all a "club" really is, is a bar with a DJ. A real rave typically doesn't even sell alcohol. But I'd wager that most single people going to actual raves (in warehouses or outdoors) are either too high to even think about hooking up, or really are there for the music and to dance - at least through the 1990's and early 2000s. I'm in the latter group, I'm a guy who went to raves (in warehouses and outdoors) for the music, as did everyone else I knew. Nobody was trying to hook up, it was definitely about getting our dance on.

[flagged]

Exactly. People used to organize stuff in the middle of some forest and miraculously hundreds of people showed up.

This is it. The phone scrolling has become so addicting that people just go on their phones. And audio quality. You can enjoy the music sometimes at better quality in your own home and scrolling all the same.

> My word association of "rave" is "festival" though.

hehe, my definition of a rave is a temporary venue where at least 2 people have asked if you need help finding Molly.

There is a bisect of "festival" goers and "ravers", but many ravers are priced out of festivals, but may attend raves weekly or monthly.

Both of these imho, are different than your traditional licensed club that primarily serves alcohol and is 21+ exclusive.

I believe that, 15 years ago was peak deadmau5, skrillex, dubstep explosion, EDC expanding everywhere. No way globally its more popular now then it was in the 2010s

I mean music festivals in the US are booming as well. EDC attendance more than doubled last year.

For sure, I think this does however line up with even younger folks who aren't going to generic clubs for a late night. They would just start earlier, bars/etc. and then end earlier. The full night bangers are definitely still very viable (and as crowded as you would like them) in NYC

It was burned years ago.

Give it two years or so to fade. There’s just not enough low cost big spaces to hold shit in.

Yes, but I'll just speak to the part about dancing: it is true that (a) many people find it fun and rewarding and (b) many people don't find it easy and/or natural a priori. However, given the right style, music, AND a few (or possibly many) months of deliberate practice to make it "click" in your brain, many people could move from category (b) to (a). Searching through this parameter space requires time and effort. This is a thread about EDM, and I spent some time trying to like EDM because it was cool, until I realized that it's not for me, and I have zero inclination to dance to it unless I'm on MDMA. On the other hand, swing, salsa, bachata ended up being absolutely my jam -- after months of deliberate practice, as none of these musical styles were super familiar to me at the outset.

For a lot folks, partnered dance forms are nothing short of life changing, and they tend to appeal to analytical introverts; if you haven't tried already, go sign up for your local lindy hop lessons, and keep your expectations low. There's no downside, at the very least you'll get some exercise.

There’s nothing wrong with you if you’re not into dancing. It’s 100% okay to be introverted and happy. Many people are. The only thing I would say is it might be worth the effort to try to get out and find some of your people, whoever they are. Feeling uncomfortable doing things like that is also totally normal, and imo sometimes feeling uncomfortable is an essential part of the human experience. I’m fairly extroverted and still feel awkward, anxious, or uncomfortable pretty regularly.

I would highly recommend talking this through with a therapist! I don't think anyone on the internet has the time/understanding/or context to tell you either way in any satisfying manner that would settle your confusion. It is never too late to introspect and learn about who you are as a person, and a therapist is a great sounding board at the very minimum.

> Can anyone relate?

I can relate with everything you have said and my life experience seems to be similar to yours. When I was younger in the 90s I forced myself to go clubbing a few times. I hated everything about it, frankly. Even so, I can't help but feel like I'm missing out on important life experiences when I read comments here.

But I think it's important to keep in mind that threads like these suffer from selection bias because, objectively speaking, most people in real life do not go clubbing or raving in their adulthood...

Tons of people just go and imbibe in various things and just sway to the music or the beat. It really is a blank slate to make it what you want, and i think that's why its popular - many types of people all go to them for many different reasons.

A lot of entertainment is priced in and the powers that be lament that young people aren't falling for it anymore.

You like sports? Well, you need a subscription to see their away games, a subscription to see their home games, and a separate subscription to see their games in season, and a subscription to see their off season. You want to see them in person? well.....

You like music? Well, the cost of a ticket to see your favorite artist is $80 + $60 in fees. Online purchase fee. Printing fee. Seat Reservation fee. etc.

Wanna go out for a few drinks? That'll be $8 for shitty beer on tap

Want to go anywhere? Time to reserve your parking spot, or pay your parking ticket. Public transport outside NY? lol. Can't really get drunk or high now either since you need to kinda be sober enough to get back. Or fuck it! Uber and pay an extra $50 in surge charge fees!

Want to go to the museum on the weekend while you visit a city? Well, too bad, it's very congested so the museum has surge charged the price of the ticket to $70 (the Shedd Aquarium special in Chicago).

I'm good I think I'll just stay home and jerk off

> What 20-something can afford to do that with any regularity?

Practically every 20-something (and just as many 30+ somethings) I know in NYC DO do this very regularly, especially if they already live in wburg/bushwick. If they're not there, they're mixing it up at nowadays.

This so much. As a gen z living in new york city, the first question people ask me when I pitch a night out is how much it'll cost.

With insane ticket, cover and drink costs. People would rather stay in and do something cheaper.

I will say the underground scene is thriving because of this though.

I can tell you living in south america that this is true. Three drinks esp. caiprinhas even at the expensive places would be about $13, $8 or $9 on promo. Cover for the fancy place is $17. Bottle service is $34.

Plus the bombed out building post war Berlin industrial feel is 1. Real, and 2. free for the promoter and the drinks are cheaper there. Yes, that's real barbed wire, and yes, its really electrified.

Yep, "back in my time", you could go to parties with then relatively famous DJ's (from gigi d'agostino, gabry ponte, etc., to our locals like Umek and Sylvain) for the entry fee equivalent of then ~2 street kebabs, and "club dj's" (local dj, playing other peoples popular music) for a price of ~1 kebab.

Drinks were a lot cheaper, but for most of us, it was drinking store bought drinks outside, then going in and having one or two drinks inside.

Now, an event like this, 60eur+ (~15 kebabs) for less known DJs, and you can't even sit down at a table/booth, you need to reserve those in advance and pay like 300eur (+ tickets.. but you get a bottle of cheap vodka and like 4 redbulls in the price). And it's a night club, a few tables and benches were always a must for those who either drank a bit too much or took a bit too much of the happy pills.

Brooklyn Mirage is hardly a rave place, just a club. Went last year it was pretty terrible. The sound was so quiet I could talk with my gf without yelling. There was also a food vendor inside the venue for whatever weird reason. Paid $300 for tickets and 2 drinks. I heard basement is a good place but never been. Europe's techno parties and raves are still going strong and no food vendors inside ofcourse we are not that lame.

>No one said "ravers" either, it was always "party kids" instead, at least among the younger end of the crowd.

Over in Japan the term was party people which slurred into pary people and finally paripi which is the term today.

Just some interesting culture from the other side of the pond.

Some of the best events I've ever been to have been where a collective has organized the Nth annual event etc. which has taken over an entire location or venue and brought in a really diverse but very friendly crowd with them from all over the place.

But yes, every other day of the week, it's like a restaurant that serves music, the machine must go on, rent gets paid, food in bellies etc.