Ask HN: Escape from TCR? Family shared SMS
36 comments
·October 26, 2024agwa
https://jmp.chat/ has worked well for me. SMS is delivered over XMPP, and phone calls use either XMPP or SIP (I use SIP). They use person-to-person routes for SMS so none of the TCR BS applies.
tcrhelpforsms
This actually looks quite promising! Thanks!
robhlt
You could use a call/SMS forwarding app on an old android phone. I haven't used any myself, but I know they're popular with small businesses.
Basically just get an old android phone, put a prepaid SIM in it, and leave it charging at home somewhere. The app will forward calls/texts to any other number(s) you choose.
tcrhelpforsms
Forwarding is only half the requirements here though. Sending responses from a different number will generally lead to confusion, and further messages from the sender will not necessarily be shared. Though maybe if the sender is savvy enough with group texting it might work out okay.
pushcx
Google Voice will also be unworkable for your needs. More and more businesses prohibit customers from using anything except a cell phone number from a major carrier or MVNO reseller, perhaps assuming anything else is criminal activity. Customer service agents are never trained about this, so they'll say a number is "invalid" or "voip" (regardless of the actual service used) and cannot be used.
turtlebits
I still use GV and have only run into a few services that won't take my number. None are critical, I just don't use those services.
ewoodrich
Mostly the same for me. But man it is fun discovering that an anti-VOIP check was added to a service after I had already associated my GV number years earlier. And now every single text 2FA prompt is sent directly into the aether.
Luckily that's only happened twice in 4+ years and both times they had an email recovery flow.
WarOnPrivacy
Occasionally, I have GV refused for 2FA - but mostly it's fine. For Voice and text, GV has been more reliable than T-Mobile or AT&T.
Caveat: T-Mobile blocks outgoing GV calls from my handset 100% of the time. I have to turn on a VPN to make a GV call.
Sytten
Personally been using anveo.com with a small GCP cloud run [1] I made to forward SMS to my email. It is the only provider I found that is allowed for 2FA most of the time. I think it is because its numbers are not in the VoIP range.
WarOnPrivacy
Anveo: Forwarding SMS to email is solid. Forwarding SMS to non-T-Mobile numbers still works.
Anveo used to forward SMS to T-Mobile numbers but stopped last year (due to T-Mobile+TCR).
YZF
I'm also on VoIP (in Canada though) and didn't even realize you could get SMS to VoIP. Annoyingly many 2FAs use SMS (which isn't really that secure) and don't offer any other options. Banks, credit cards, etc. Another problem is travel where you can get your credit card declined and can't get the SMS. Over-aggressive anti-fraud AIs.
<joke>curious where you and your wife stand on tabs vs. spaces</joke>
tcrhelpforsms
I think that may have actually been the exact original motivating use case. That the bank kept trying to send 2FA codes. Though I recall that may not have worked at first as our provider was probably still classified as not being a valid destination.
I'd need to check, but I'm on team spaces and I think she is on team tabs.
basch
simplelogin for sms is definitely a space lacking in the consumer product market.
family home management and communication routing in general is a blank space with almost nothing. it extends into every market. childrens medical bills only appearing in one of two parents accounts etc. communication from an entity to a family is ripe for disruption and standardization.
have you looked at business support tools such as https://missiveapp.com/blog/what-is-sms-shared-inbox
tcrhelpforsms
I believe I had come across Missive while investigating. I will admit I haven't tried signing up. But given that it is marketed towards businesses, I expect as soon as one does they'll require you to provide all the information you would need to be registered as part of TCR. If this is incorrect, let me know and I'll dig deeper.
systemz
Dumbphone and number from standard cell provider seems like a simple fix. No iOS or Android necessary.
tcrhelpforsms
I suspect you are misunderstanding the use case here. If I am understanding you correctly, you are proposing solution using single phone. As such, only one person can have the phone with them at any given time.
Also, a dumb phone doesn't really help with the need for SMS and MMS.
Update: I had indeed misunderstood and the proposal was to use a cloned SIM and two phones with dual SIM support. However, as discussed deeper in the thread this still seems to have flaws.
systemz
Yes, I was suggesting just that. In that case, at least in EU there is an option when one number can be used on more than one SIM card. Then using second SIM slot on both phones you have access to that number. Incoming SMS goes to both number I think. Calls can be answered by any phone but faster to answer wins.
tcrhelpforsms
I have not heard of such a thing in the US, but I will investigate.
So while that would work for calls, does that also behave as expected for SMS and MMS?
hluska
It works in many providers in Canada too.
Our mobile networks just recently upgraded from two tin cans and a really long string so I feel like if we support it, it must be pretty close to universal.
hluska
No, you can multiple sims in one phone, at least in the Apple world. iPhone has supported dual sim since 13 and eSIM forever. I don’t know about Android but I’m sure you can research that with a search like “{ your partner’s device mfg + model } and dual sim support”.
tcrhelpforsms
I'll investigate this, but I'm kind of surprised this use case would be even allowed? How does this wind up being different than a SIM cloning attack?
WarOnPrivacy
TCR is as much a problem as it is a solution. As a pay-for play registry, it silently sabotages legit SMS messages from VoIP (MNVO, etc) - while allowing plenty of SMS traffic that end users don't want.
My phone # is a VoIP that forwards to my T-Mobile cell. SMS stopped reaching my phone because T-Mobile silently dropped them. I now forward them to my AT&T # (as long as I can) and to my email.
TCR explainer: The Campaign Registry is an industry-led effort to reduce spam, mostly spearheaded by T-Mobile. It isn't fully baked and is far too simplistically implemented.
It is supposed to (only) apply to SMS originating from biz. However, it is a wide and leaky net that captures both more and less than it should.
SMS from biz that pay/register with the TCR are unfettered; they can mass message. SMS sent from consumers via wireless carriers (like T-Mobile) are similarly unmolested.
But SMS sent from VoIP services (that compete with wireless carriers) get interpreted as biz-originated and get dropped silently.
Past that, another major issue with TCR is that it doesn't meaningfully discriminate between major SMS campaigns and the most minimal+routine SMS usage.
My biz clients provide product support to their customers and a handful of SMS messages may be involved. Even so, they are required to jump thru the same hoops as huge entities that send millions of SMS.
Within that context, I found that registering and working with TCR was so onerous/expensive that we're 1) ignoring it as long as we can and 2) considering workarounds.
hedora
Is there a client-side way to tell if an SMS is sent via TCR?
If so, I’m guessing a good chunk of the US would pay for an app that silences the notifications and auto-responds STOP.
WarOnPrivacy
> Is there a client-side way to tell if an SMS is sent via TCR?
The TCR is a list that wireless carriers use to decide if they'll let a SMS message proceed or not.
I doubt the message itself indicates that it was weighed against the TCR list (it would require modifying the message).
tcrhelpforsms
Yeah, this isn't like e-mail headers where different hops in routing will insert additional information.
tcrhelpforsms
Yes, I should have perhaps more clearly stated that while the ostensible goal of TCR is reduce spam, it is at least as much about control and rent seeking.
WarOnPrivacy
> We are increasingly hitting weird blocks on messaging due to being grandfathered in before TCR.
AFAIK, being grandfathered in before TCR isn't a thing. The blocking is inconsistent because the enforcement is inconsistent.
TCR enforcement (filtering SMS) is done by carriers who choose to use it on their services.
Primarily, TCR lists are used by wireless carriers, to filter SMS messages before they reach handsets. Primarily, that carrier is T-Mobile.
TCR is mostly a T-Mobile effort and they are it's largest enforcer. I have a T-Mobile number and a VoIP number.
I used to have SMS to my VoIP be forwarded to my T-Mobile - until T-Mobile began dropping 100% of those messages.
I have a dual SIM phone and SMS are now forwarded to my AT&T number. For now, they're arriving. If that stops, I'll have them forwarded to my Google Voice number.
I don't know if AT&T or Verizon currently utilize TCR filtering. They may, somewhat. If not, I'd guess they will but won't fully adopt T-Mobile's model.
It should be noted that VoIP providers are a primary competitor to T-Mobile; I am not at all surprised T-Mobile would single them out. It fits with T-Mobile's other anti-competitive practices - like blocking Google voice calls from handsets (ex:mine).
tcrhelpforsms
To clarify on "grandfathering": our use of the service predated our provider's involvement with TCR. Any new accounts created with the provider now requires you provide complete information on your business and its purpose to qualify for the product. As our account existed before that time, and they still wanted to take our money, they didn't cancel our account. Yet.
dzdt
What is TCR?
isntnull
The Campaign Registry - here is one place they define it: https://www.campaignregistry.com/privacy-policy/
hluska
This is likely phone provider dependent and might be a real pain in the butt, but what if you shared the “home” line between your two mobile devices?
iPhone has supported dual sim since 13 or sim + eSIM for a very long time. I have absolutely no idea about Android.
It doesn’t fix spam but I’m not convinced humans will ever win that war.
tcrhelpforsms
I suppose I should have been clearer, while I don't like spam, the issue is that TCR is about much more.
There was some discussion about dual SIM solutions with a cloned SIM in a different thread. But even ignoring the potential for incurring our carrier's wrath, with not all messages will be available to both parties, it doesn't meet the minimal functional requirements.
My wife is a bit particular and when we moved in together want there to be a household phone. So we signed up with a VoIP service and things worked. When we bought a home together, life got more complicated. There were utilities, contractors, service people, deliveries, etc. One day we realized that some of these folks would frequently send texts to our house number instead of calling, which we would never receive. So we upgraded our VoIP service/plan with a SMS option, and it was great. We could both just keep up to date on all the various things and either of us could respond as our schedules allowed, on any of our devices. We could even send images as MMS would allow to make communication clearer ("See this is exactly where things are going wrong", etc.)
And as with many things in life, human nature has pretty much ruined it. To combat SMS spam, as far as we can tell, all business SMS usage needs to be approved through https://www.campaignregistry.com/ now. And recent years, it has been brought to our attention that the service we are paying for is really intended for businesses. We are increasingly hitting weird blocks on messaging due to being grandfathered in before TCR. It has gotten to the point where we are on the verge of registering a business just to keep our functionality. Except even just having a registered business may not be enough because TCR requires all kinds of detailed information about your business and its practices.
So we are at a bit of a loss what else to do here. We could concede and one of us gets the responsibility of the "designated" cell phone number to handle everything household related. It is further complicated by my being an Apple fanboi and her a Windows/Android zealot. If we both used Apple devices we could maybe finagle something out by buying a dedicated iPhone for the house number and then take advantage of the cross-device Messages interoperability. There is Google Voice, and even ignoring my dislike for them, I don't feel they can necessarily be trusted not to drop the product or ban us for arbitrary reasons. Additionally, when it comes to actual phone calls, while Google Voice can forward calls to a number, I am not aware of any option to use it directly with regular handsets like many VoIP providers offer.
Are there really no companies in this space serving personal users? If not, that would be an excellent business niche for the entrepreneural folks in the audience.