Disposable vapes to be banned in England and Wales
144 comments
·October 25, 2024Swarming
prophesi
I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but in the USA it's also next to impossible to find a disposable vape that doesn't have an insanely high amount of nicotine. If anyone is unfortunate enough to try a disposable as their introduction to nicotine, they'll be as hooked as a pack a day smoker in no time. I switched to vaping after the pandemic and saw in realtime vapes come out with higher and higher nicotine levels, replacing the lower nic vapes on the shelves.
The only reason I had to use disposables was that I couldn't get replacement coils & nicotine juice for several months. They can't use traditional shippers, and the services they use vary wildly in quality; I probably still have a shipment gathering dust in a storage warehouse after several failed delivery attempts. For anyone trying to quit smoking, my best advice would be to go to a vape store that has a lot of custom vape equipment and not just peddling disposables. They should be able to tell how much nicotine salt / freebase liquid you should use given your current smoking habits and goals for quitting.
cyberpunk
I switched to vapes for a while and genuinely my lung health was worse than smoking.
In the end it was Allen Carr’s book that got me off them, and it was surprisingly easy.
The author died in 2006 so I wouldn’t even feel too bad about pirating it, I’m quite sure he wouldn’t mind.
ZeroGravitas
One of the things that stuck with me about that book was the author instructing you not to give it to someone else once you'd quit and to get them to buy their own copy so he may well mind it being pirated from the the grave.
prophesi
Yeah at this point, nicotine pouches might be the best smoking alternative. But I'm seeing the same thing happen there. Zyns start at 3mg which is already higher than the usual 2mg for tobacco pouches. Off brands are going as high as 8mg+, and I imagine it'll keep rising as their consumers raise their tolerance.
edit: This discussion is really bumming me out; quitting feels hopeless when we're preyed upon like this.
nostrebored
My pet theory is that nicotine itself isn't particularly addictive to adults.
I think the combination of additives in cigs is what makes them so hard to quit. I have quit various forms of pure nicotine with no withdrawals over the years, and treat it a bit like caffeine -- a stimulant that I use for a few months at a time before cycling off.
The only time I've _ever_ desperately craved a nicotine product was after 2-3 days of smoking cigarettes. When getting on a near-day-long flight, the whole time back I was thinking "wow, it would be great to have a cigarette right now" every 5-10 minutes.
But agreed on lung health with vaping. Also, my whole upper respiratory tract was in shambles. My throat was so dry, and it made me get sick constantly.
bragr
This is a bit of a US problem. The UK and many other countries limit the strength and amount of vape juice, so they are weaker and give fewer puffs. There's a lot of evidence that this reduces the addictiveness.
swores
UK disposables do still tend to be as high as they're allowed, while bottles of liquid come in various lower amounts of nicotine to choose from.
tstrimple
I was an occasional nicotine vaper, usually when taking a T break. The flavor was alright, and I couldn't feel much if anything from the hits in the 3-5% concentration range for e-juice. I never had problems just putting the device away for weeks at a time while enjoying other vices. I picked up some disposables while traveling and the experience was completely different. The flavor profile was much more rich. Things actually tasted fruity. More like a juice than the hint of a flavor I was used to from the freebase liquids I had tried. It hits far smoother. In addition I got a buzz from nicotine in a way I had never experienced before. I was literally high off my first few strong puffs. I don't get high anymore. But I also can't put it away anymore. After a day without, I'm almost constantly thinking about it. Freebase liquids do absolutely nothing to help divert my attention. Supposedly the nicotine salt vape is also only 5%. But holy shit does it feel different.
8f2ab37a-ed6c
I also noticed that the flavors I'd get in disposables taste a lot more "chemical" than the ones you can find for a vape mod. I suspect that people buying them in a pinch makes them a lot less discerning about what ends up in them.
LordDragonfang
It's also possibly to do with the fact that disposables are almost universally nic salts, where as mod juices are usually freebase nic, and that can affect the flavor.
(Of course, I might be wrong, since it's been nearly a decade since I paid attention to the vape scene)
ajmurmann
Would it make more sense to properly tax those negative externalities instead of having some authority just picking one use case as "bad"?
nialv7
It might work if nicotine wasn't addictive. And because it is, the rational actor hypothesis goes out of the window, and taxing it is just going to hurt poor people who are addicted to nicotine.
changing1999
How would an additional tax address this? Paying more would hardly reduce usage, and definitely won't incentivize users to dispose of vape pens more responsibly.
dberst
I can imagine a tax so high that it's effectively a ban, and a tax half that size that might be a compromise between black and white ban/no ban
tbrownaw
Do bottle deposits (a few cents that you get back for returning empty soda or whatever bottles to the right place) actually work? If they do, maybe the same model would work for this.
tomjen3
It could pay for additional people to clean up the streets, or you have a deposit on them, so that they be returned rather than littered.
bebrbrhrj
I think so but the practical issues are:
Tax is one big pool of money and I doubt the money will be used to fix the issues created.
A similar idea, carbon taxes and carbon credits trading seemed politically dead at least in my country even though it is a fantastic idea.
Edit: what might work is a 5-10 British pound ransom, released on return of the disposible to a recycling centre. Give the used devices free to a reclaiming merchant that operates out of the same country.
null
jsheard
> The e-waste involved in that sub-industry must be absolutely horrifying.
The human cost of making them doesn't look great either...
Faaak
Yeah, same. I'm all up for a "free country", and all that. But this was just absurd. I wonder if 30+ years don't the line, if maybe resources are scarcer, we'll think about these and say: "we were fucking crazy"
onlyrealcuzzo
I dunno.
The earth is pretty big, and vape batteries are tiny, and we keep finding substitutes.
I'm all for reducing waste, but it seems unlikely we'll run out of metals in our lifetimes.
Keep in mind, things keep getting more efficient, and rich nations are finally tending toward using LESS per capita.
Sure, the poor nations might eventually become rich and the global population has not yet peeked, but there's no reason to assume our materials usage will grow exponentially forever.
And, even if you assumed we were going to run out of whatever is in these tiny vape pens - the percentage of all usage going to tiny applications like this is a rounding error. It's not what you would attack if you really wanted to move the needle.
You'd probably try to reduce the number of people buying new cars, for example.
Vegenoid
> in our lifetimes
Is the key here. We need to think beyond our lifetimes. We should be treating the earth like we're going to live on it for (tens or hundreds of) thousands of years, because I sure as shit hope we (meaning humans) are going to.
Yes, reducing creation of cars would certainly have a much bigger impact, and should be done. But it's also a lot harder than dealing with vapes.
Anyway, as far as I understand it, the main reason this is happening isn't happening to reduce waste, it's happening to stop a rise in nicotine consumption in children. Preventing waste is more of a nice side effect.
dotBen
The UK isn't a 'free country' in the way American's use the term. It took me a few years of living in America to understand the nuance. I think the 'freedoms' Americans have raises it's own problems for society (eg guns) and there isn't a right or wrong, just different.
The joke I always like to make is that in the US everything is legal unless the government legislates to say you can't, in Europe everything is illegal unless the government legislates to say you can. :D
asplake
> The joke I always like to make is that in the US everything is legal unless the government legislates to say you can't
Guess where the US got that from? Yes, the UK, and it still applies.
dataflow
> in Europe everything is illegal unless the government legislates to say you can.
That doesn't seem accurate. I'm guessing you haven't lived in a country where that's much closer to reality?
immibis
That's the joke they made about the Soviet Union; it's inaccurate for Europe. But in Europe the government isn't afraid to make things illegal.
Veen
That sentiment originated in discussions of English common law, where it was being contrasted with European legal codes.
null
seneca
> The joke I always like to make is that in the US everything is legal unless the government legislates to say you can't, in Europe everything is illegal unless the government legislates to say you can.
That's pretty good. It's a succinct contrast of the difference between a citizen and a subject.
ninalanyon
That's just nonsense.
ryandvm
I have a different thought about that kind of stuff in that in 100 years or so landfills will probably be literal gold mines (or whatever else you're looking for).
Crosseye_Jack
I'm just pissed that my source of free batteries is gonna dry up lol.
stavros
Are the batteries any good? What do they have in them? 1100 mAh LiPo?
Crosseye_Jack
The cells themselves are pretty good - pretty much only every come across Lipo's even in "non-rechargeable" disposables. mAh basically depends on the size of the vape / the puff count, but yeah I normally find them to br between 500 and 1500 mAh (give or take).
bebrbrhrj
Wat? Disposibles have rechargable batteries?
mytailorisrich
This begs the question: why do you use disposables, then, and will apparently only stop when they are banned if you think they are so bad?
null
WediBlino
*vapist
dejawu
An ex of mine used disposable vapes and I was shocked by how beautifully designed some of them are - transparent covers with visible inner workings reminiscent of the Nothing phones; custom multi-segment displays for battery and temperature status; original artwork printed in vibrant color on the side. It made me even angrier that these things are meant to just be used once and then thrown out. Of course putting all this e-waste into the environment is a disaster, but to then also treat art and design as similarly disposable feels heartbreakingly cynical on another level entirely.
I collected a few that she was going to throw out, someday™ I'll build some driver boards for the displays and make a little art piece out of them.
gedy
Displays? I'm curious to see these if you know what brand these were.
dejawu
Looks like one of them is Pyne Pod: https://www.pynepod.com/uploads/bd58c18e.png
The Geek Bar Pulse has the custom multi-segment on the side: https://oss.geekbar.com/products/meloso-ultra/2/Orange%20Cre...
acka
> Looks like one of them is Pyne Pod: https://www.pynepod.com/uploads/bd58c18e.png
Is that a USB port on the underside? A rechargeable, non-refillable vape, oh my...
gedy
And disposable, that boggles my mind.
kelseyfrog
If they're anything like the US, even though sales to children are banned, kids still get their hands on it. I have a family member who works directly with children and they constantly find kids vaping in the restrooms. At some point adults are distributing vapes to children despite the legality.
If the most modulatable link in the supply chain is sales to adults who then distribute to children, that's unfortunately going to be the point that lawmakers target. Sucks to give people a chance and then be shown why we were wrong.
tredre3
It's weird how the article (and perhaps the law itself?) frame it as being "for the children".
Disposable vapes are an environmental disaster. If this new law forces the manufacturers to add a 5 cents usb port to recharge them or force them to make the cell removable so it can be charged (disposable vapes already use rechargeable cells, they just can't be charged currently), it's a win for everybody.
qup
The ones here are both disposable and rechargeable.
The tank is larger than the battery would burn without a recharge, but not refillable.
foxyv
When I was a kid, there was a black market for trading cards, candy, cigarettes, and blunts in school. Schools are a lot like prisons, where the poorer kids needed a hustle to eat. Some kids were making tons of money selling to other kids in school. Mostly legal stuff, but some illegal. Usually they had an older brother to supply them with stuff they couldn't get on their own.
ksp-atlas
At least here, kids vaping is basically normal and it's really bad
mgraczyk
In the US, sales of disposable vapes are not allow to anyone by anyone
potato3732842
>Sucks to give people a chance and then be shown why we were wrong.
Is this just clumsy wording or a dog whistle for how you think society ought to be structured?
Because if the latter I take serious issue with the implied assumptions about the relationship between the government and the people.
Yeah, smoking is bad and vaping is only a little better but it's a pretty mild problem as far as societal ills go, adults are adults and you don't get to screw everyone because of a few bad actors.
antihero
Vaping is significantly better.
kelseyfrog
I'm purely a consequentialist on this topic. Take that however you want
bowsamic
Huh? This is a ban for everyone, not just children
tredre3
GP's comment confused me too at first but after reading the article a second time, they do frame it as "for the children":
> Ministers in England said the move [...] is intended to protect children's health and prevent environmental damage.
kelseyfrog
Correct. What do you think I wrote?
null
bowsamic
If it’s banned for everyone, how would adults be able to buy them for children?
postepowanieadm
That's simply amazing: we fight with disposable plastic straws but we had no problem with single use electronics and battery. Insane.
patrickmcnamara
Clearly we did have a problem.
bebrbrhrj
"We" does the heavy lifting.
Profiteers had no problem. Vapers had no problem. The government had a problem.
This shows democracy actually working IMO. You elect people you trust and then they do the right thing despite individual people not doing that collectively.
noja
What are straws for anyway?
6SixTy
There are plenty of people with motor issues where a straw really does mean having the freedom to drink on your own. Also, in the US, ice is more popular to add to your drink and a straw means not getting blasted with a bunch of ice.
foxyv
I non-disposable ones to keep cold and acidic drinks from washing over my sensitive teeth.
bebrbrhrj
Kids love em. Although I am impartial to a straw into a cold milkshake or mango smoothie on a hot day.
93po
in the US most people drink stuff with a ton of ice. it stops the ice from hitting your mouth/teeth when you drink. it's also easier to drink in a moving vehicle with a straw and not risk stuff splashing all over you
jjulius
... what? They do have a problem with single-use electronics/batteries, so much so that they're banning them.
xelamonster
I'm not sure this will actually end up changing much because of how they've carved out exceptions for refillable or rechargeable devices. I don't vape nicotine but I occasionally buy a disposable THC vape, and nearly every one of them is technically rechargeable despite the fact that the charge generally lasts the life of the cartridge and there's no use for it afterwards. I wouldn't be surprised if UK vape vendors simply make minor changes to be compliant without really changing the product.
frou_dh
Aside from the health/chemical-pollution aspects, these things have simply resulted in such ugliness because I see them strewn all over the ground every day.
Apparently "disposable" means "throw on the ground".
mrguyorama
The overlap between "Uses nicotine" and "Just throws plastic shit on the ground" is astonishing. You do not see nearly as much littering from weed smokers for example.
potato3732842
>The ban will not apply to rechargeable or refillable devices.
My impression was that these make up the lion's share of "disposable" vape sales. I've certainly never known anyone to use anything else, but I'm also not 14 and vaping in the bathroom.
wnolens
I wonder if they meant 'and' because yes, many high capacity disposable vapes are technically rechargeable as the batteries don't last as long as the liquid.
throw156754228
If only I had a pound for every discarded vape canister littered on the ground I've seen in London over the past few years. Will the ban fix this? I barely even know what a vape is.
tartoran
They could have played with incentives and monetary returns on used devices, same we do with deposits for empty cans or bottles and let the manufactures deal with all the waste/recycling. These disposable devices are clearly an environment problem. Where I am, NY, I've seen thrown all over the place and at first I had no idea what they were. I picked up one thinking it was some kind of device someone lost. I did the right thing and put it in a trash can but then recycling thoughts came to mind. I'm all in for punishing the companies that manufacture these, large fines are needed from discouraging them creating future problems like these.
jsheard
> I did the right thing and put it in a trash can but then recycling thoughts came to mind.
Is it the right thing to do? AFAIK you're not supposed to put lithium batteries in general waste because if they get damaged in processing they can start a fire, especially if they have a lingering amount of charge in them, which empty disposable vapes probably do.
CharlieDigital
It would probably cost more to recycle them; they are not like aluminum cans or glass bottles that can be easily recycled into raw materials.
bloopernova
I don't think that prevents a programme to encourage responsible disposal. A $5 deposit on these vapes would get people to return them, and they could be recycled en masse even if it does cost more.
lagniappe
If you attach some sort of rebate to it, I guarantee there will be people who collect them off the ground who don't even vape, like how some do with bottles and cans and scrap metal.
jazzyjackson
I like the idea of a deposit but you still need someone to accept the waste - point of a deposit is you get it back, so how do you fund the responsible disposal?
potato3732842
>Batteries thrown into household waste also cause hundreds of fires in bin lorries and waste-processing centres every year.
More or less than cigarettes?
Serious question. I actually want to know.
dotBen
I've never vaped (/smoked/done drugs/etc I'm v boring) but can someone ELI5 why disposable vapes have been the preference?
Don't you just buy the capsules and put them into your regarchable vape? Or if you want to get exotic e liquid. I would assume that's much cheaper than buying a whole device each time much must cost more $$/££.
Vegenoid
It's because they are inexpensive, require zero maintenance, zero mess, zero additional equipment needed to maintain and use it. You don't have to understand anything about how it works or is put together. You get to have new colors and styles frequently, you naturally keep up with the trends. If you lose it or break it, it doesn't matter. There's no compatibility between the cartridge and the vape to think about.
Basically, because they are as easy as possible and stay trendy by their revolving door nature.
extr
IMO the main culprit is the over regulation of semi/non-disposable vapes/nicotine which still require more R&D to make accessible and easy to use for any consumer. This disposables are just plain better because the internals of vapes are finicky. Coils, wicking, batteries, juice, all in a very small package. it’s literally easier to just throw the entire thing away than to worry about the specifics, try to buy the separate components and replace them as they age, etc. It’s why semi-disposable pod systems like juul are also quite successful.
xelamonster
Rechargeable vape pens are incredibly cheap, and disposables aren't noticeably more expensive overall so the cost difference is insignificant. Couple reasons for a preference (personally don't vape nicotine and I've never cared strongly about disposable vs not):
- Disposables won't die on you. Unless you're getting massive carts the battery tends to last the whole time and you never worry about charging.
- Guaranteed compatible. I've seen seemingly standard carts not work with certain pens which can be very frustrating.
- The standard 510 thread cartridge kinda sucks. I'm not sure if it's a design flaw or a lot of bad manufacturers but they tend to leak and develop blockages.
bloopernova
> Guaranteed compatible. I've seen seemingly standard carts not work with certain pens which can be very frustrating.
The carts with longer mouthpieces just fit in my battery/pen, but yeah the cartridges need to be a standard length too.
> The standard 510 thread cartridge kinda sucks. I'm not sure if it's a design flaw or a lot of bad manufacturers but they tend to leak and develop blockages.
Blockages are an annoyance, yeah. I wonder if a "double-wide cart" would flow more easily?
xelamonster
I would go for multiple air paths over a wider one, don't want to end up with a smoothie straw you can suck liquid vape juice out of. But yeah length can be an issue and width also, for the ones that wrap around the cartridge to be more compact.
turndown
On box mods(the big vapes you might recall starting to see 10-15 years ago) there is a chamber up top you have to manually fill with nicotine. This can be a bit annoying to do but the real problem is remembering to bring liquid to refill with.
That’s really the only negative to the large box mods, other than having to recharge 18650 batteries all the time. But disposables are usually much smaller(easier to hide if you’re in school), use nicotine salts(which are much more potent) and they usually last a long time - sometimes 20k hits. So these aren’t “bad” products, they have a lot of selling points.
bloopernova
For THC, they're cheap and convenient. They allow someone to try vaping without buying what people might think is an expensive "real" vape. Even though reusable vapes with 510 cartridges don't really cost much more, lots of people don't know that.
I tried a couple, once I found a strain/mix that seemed to work with my nerve and back pain, I bought a reusable vape and use cartridges now.
null
I’m a UK vaper (former smoker) and while I’m sure I’m going to find this annoying (disposables are helpful in a pinch when your proper vape has run out of battery or liquid), it’s clearly the right thing to do.
The e-waste involved in that sub-industry must be absolutely horrifying. Tens of millions of tiny little batteries, surrounded in plastic, lingering quantities of nicotine-rich liquids…
Glad this is happening.
I’ll take the inconvenience on the chin lol