Why do commercial spaces sit vacant?
106 comments
·December 17, 2025polalavik
harmmonica
I’d support a land value tax myself so don’t take this following comment as criticism, but you don’t even need a land value tax in the case of LA. You do need to repeal Prop 13 for investment properties. I wager most of those years-vacant properties have a generous Prop 13 assessment and so the owner can just sit on it because their carrying cost is closer to zero than what it would be in any other tax regime. Then all of us folks around them continue to make the adjacent area nicer and they just ride off into the sunset while the absurd delta between their taxable value and market value increases.
Prop 13 is like the anti land value tax. Makes places like Texas look downright progressive.
epistasis
We were very close to repealing Prop 13 on commercial property a few years ago (via Prop 15).
One of the biggest objections to a straight repeal Prop 13 on commercial property is that most commercial leases are triple-net, meaning that the businesses directly pay the taxes. Which means that a bunch of small businesses that are just barely on the edge of profitability will shut down when they finally have to pay their fair share of property tax.
Agreed on the need to do it though (and also Texas typically has higher taxes for a normal person, with worse services than California). We might just want to pass a gradual phase in or a requirement that landowners pay it without increasing rent )and doing reach through to modify all those triple net leases... or something. Or we just let the businesses fail, but the public tends to not like lots of small businesses failing.
avidiax
The inability to pay a high tax increase constantly comes up in discussions on Prop 13, and it seems like a willful failure to find a solution.
For personal property, raise the taxes, and give the home owner the option to defer the raise as a lien against the property, accruing fair interest. Nobody gets kicked out of their home, and the taxes get paid when the home is sold. If it is inherited, then the inheritors will have to increase their taxes paid at least so that the lien amount no longer increases relative to the home value.
For commercial property, cap the property tax paid by the lease-holder to the historic rate + a several percent growth to gradually meet the current tax bill. The rest of the tax becomes a lien on the property to be paid on sale, with forced payment increases if the lien to value ratio becomes too large. It would be up to the property owner whether they pay the additional tax or take it as a lien. Ultimately, commercial prop 13 was a mistake, and businesses that can't compete on a level playing field need to be gradually pressured to improve profitability or make the space available to someone that can.
harmmonica
Yeah, I feel like the yimby's are going to take another run at repealing it for investment properties (5+ units of multifamily and all of commercially-zoned property) and it stands a much greater chance of passing the next time because of how close it was last time. The messaging will be much sharper.
Re your NNN comment, would you mind sharing a source for that? My gut says it's not accurate, but happy to be proven wrong. If you meant total square footage of leased space, that would make more sense, but having a hard time believing most leases are NNN (and since your point was about businesses going under what I think matters is the number of leases because (a bit over-simplified) 1 lease = 1 business regardless of the square footage leased by the business.
The ironic thing about this whole topic of businesses going under is that there's no rent control, for the most part, for businesses and yet Prop 13 acts as rent control (i.e., carried cost control) for landlords. If the landlords only charged the market rent that was achievable at the time they bought the property with a nominal capped annual increase that'd be pretty good for operating businesses, just not for the landlord's real estate business.
P.s. I personally benefit from Prop 13 and would be happy to have its market-distorting bullshit eliminated!
toast0
> We might just want to pass a gradual phase in
You could probably adjust the annual percentage increase and find a balance between pre-prop13 problems of rapidly increasing property tax and the post-prop13 problems of significant gap between capped assessment and actual value.
Probably also need to do something about transfers via holding companies as well, since there's a ton of commercial properties that have never had their assessment cap reset because of the way the beneficial holding rules apply to corporations. OTOH, if the capped assessment grows at something like 5% per year, maybe it can catch up soon enough anyway.
spankalee
We need to repeal Prop 13 completely. The fact that my neighbors pay 1/10th the property tax that I do, despite being younger and less at risk of being forced out of their home due to going fixed income or some financial crisis, is absurd.
margalabargala
Doing that would be good policy but bad politics. The people it would hurt the worst are the ones who vote most (older people) and the people most responsible for cities being the way they are (people who have lived in one spot a long time). So it's unlikely to directly happen, for that reason.
Piecemeal reform is much easier to swallow. Especially if you start with something like commercial properties, and especially since the increased income that results can be used to create tangible community improvements.
So even if your ultimate goal is full repeal, the correct strategy to make that come about is piecemeal reform, and pushing for a full repeal is counterproductive to that happening.
nradov
Prop 13 passed originally as a taxpayer revolt against uncontrolled spending increases by local governments. I agree that reform is needed but I'll only support changes if they maintain some sort of reasonable revenue limits on local governments. Otherwise the money will just be wasted giving fat raises to public employees.
ricksunny
I'm a former (i.e. not irrelevant to the question) Californian who also thinks Prop 13 should be repealed, and am probably supportive of LVT;
Can you walk through the scenario that younger neighbors pay a tech of the property tax you do? Are they legacies and benefiting from some sort of inherited trust or something?
danjl
What about incentivizing switching the building from commercial to residential? Given that commercial brick and mortar are generally on a downward trend, and the need for housing continues to increase, it would seem better to switch the property zoning in the long run. Since I'm clueless about the financial details of commercial real estate, I'm sure this proposal is full of holes, but, as a rule, I prefer incentives rather than penalties to motivate change.
PaulHoule
The article points that adding any more costs just costs the operator money and won't change their behavior unless the costs are so high that the bank is forced to foreclose. Maybe on some that level that is a good thing and clears the market but in the current situation the banks just won't make loans unless this happens.
It makes me think of the "poker game" model of nuclear power plant construction where the vendor is quoting a price lower than they know it will cost because otherwise they wouldn't make the sale. If commercial buildings were properly priced at the outset, banks would be financing fewer of them.
marcosdumay
Yes, the idea of a land value tax is to make it high enough to for banks to foreclose. The entire thing is about making sure land is used on the most socially benefiting way possible.
dragonwriter
> The entire thing is about making sure land is used on the most socially benefiting way possible.
The idea of land value tax is to make the government effectively the universal landowner and everyone else renters, and renters paying a high enough rent that it is economically infeasible to use land for any but the most financially remunerative purpose.
Having it optimizing for social utility rather than maximizing negative externalities requires a finely optimized system of Pigovian taxes and subsidies, otherwise you are nailing the accelerator to the floor on the divergence between market incentives and social utility.
estearum
> The article points that adding any more costs just costs the operator money and won't change their behavior unless the costs are so high that the bank is forced to foreclose.
That is assuming operators are roughly zero-IQ automatons who can't factor future costs into present decisions?
seanmcdirmid
Is it because of Prop 13 that commercial property owners aren't paying adequate property taxes that would act to encourage use?
coliveira
Some businesses survive because they already own the property or have long time leases.
kcplate
Sometimes the last lessee is still on the hook for the remainder of the lease due to landlord improvements for the tenant. Had a friend lease a retail storefront, his business failed, but he still was coughing up rent to the landlord until the space was leased again. He was a sole proprietor and had to personally guarantee the lease. It was in his best interests to pay it rather than take the hit to his credit by defaulting on the lease.
My guess is a already wealthy landlord would probably be motivated to ride out the remainder of an existing lease and write off any unpaid amount as a loss before lowering the price to attract another business into the space.
dec0dedab0de
Don't underestimate how many businesses are supplementing their income with dirty money.
scifi
True. What I don’t get, is how is vacancy a good move for the landlord? Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a tenant during that time?
bobthepanda
Commercial loans are not like residential mortgages and often the loan is based on a minimum rent. If you go below that then you are in default.
triceratops
How do they make mortgage payments without rent?
null
duskwuff
I don't like just saying "read the article", but this is precisely what the article explains. In short: the rental rates are a condition of the property owner's loan.
atoav
And I don't even think it is controversial. People who squat on needed resources without using them are a drain on society, thus society should try to create an incentive structure for using spaces. A tax can be part of this.
dec0dedab0de
Interesting, but It doesn't answer why a bank would hold a completely vacant building for 15 years.
I think we need Vacancy taxes that go up based on the percentage of time vacant over different spans of time. Anything that makes owning an empty building a bad investment in all circumstances. This needs to apply to all units in a multitenant building.
toast0
> Interesting, but It doesn't answer why a bank would hold a completely vacant building for 15 years.
Lowering the rent to fill their building reduces the value of that building, which means when they sell it, they will recognize a loss that is likely larger than many years of operating loss from the empty building.
Additionally, lowering the rent for that building will also reduces the value of other nearby buildings that have that building as a comparable property. Then when those buildings come up for refinance, either the borrower will have to come up with more funds so that the loan to value max isn't exceeded or the borrower will default and the bank will lose the income stream and be holding another property where their investment is more than the value.
Borrowers usually don't want to come up with more funds on a property where they're underwater and banks don't want to foreclose on property where the bank will be underwater, so it's in the bank's interest to let things be vacant and keep the valuations based on the previous rent, rather than lowering the rent and facing the music. You'll also see promos like first several months free, rather than reducing the rent, so you can report it's rented at whatever the headline rate is, even if the tenant is effectively paying much less; of course, the tenant will be looking for somewhere else to rent come renewal.
This is far from the only case in banking where taking some action on an asset that would otherwise be reasonable won't be done, because it would trigger a mark to market on too many other assets. Ex: you can't sell realize a loss to sell treasury bonds to satisfy cash flow needs, because you'll have to mark to market all the similar bonds, and then you won't meet your reserve needs.
ryandrake
> Lowering the rent to fill their building reduces the value of that building
> Additionally, lowering the rent for that building will also reduces the value of other nearby buildings that have that building as a comparable property
> it's in the bank's interest to let things be vacant and keep the valuations based on the previous rent, rather than lowering the rent and facing the music.
This just seems like everyone involved is playing make-believe about the actual value of their property. A tax on vacant land that increases exponentially year after year might help to correct this behavior, because at some point, it costs less to realize the loss than it does to pay the ever-increasing vacant land tax.
bobthepanda
The behavior with a lot of commercial real estate loans atm is literally called “extend and pretend”
atmavatar
> This just seems like everyone involved is playing make-believe about the actual value of their property.
That's precisely what's going on.
It's a common theme among wealthy individuals/organizations to treat property as having value X for some purposes and Y for others - e.g., like pretending stock holdings are worth X for the sake of taxation while being able to secure loans by representing the stock valuation as Y.
tokioyoyo
Other than some of the residents who don’t want to see empty storefronts, who is incentivized to push for a correction in this case? It’s a “everybody loses” scenario, this everyone pretends to believe the numbers.
chucksta
They are, value is relative. If the local government did that, it would discourage investors and future growth. They would go somewhere with less risk
yesfitz
Since you brought up treasury bonds, during the 2023 Banking Crisis, the Federal Reserve created the Bank Term Funding Program[1] that let banks borrow against the par value of bonds, rather than the market value.
I thought it was a really elegant solution, and has made me wonder if a similar program could be used for vacant Commercial Real Estate in the cast of a national vacancy tax, land value tax, or similar value-lowering event.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Term_Funding_Program#Prog...
coliveira
This doesn't happen because the owners of commercial property are very rich people. Adding these rules would essentially devalue commercial property all over the US, and we know how congress would never allow this to happen.
roenxi
> Anything that makes owning an empty building a bad investment in all circumstances
But empty buildings aren't a bad idea under all circumstances. Eg, It might be prudent to have empty living space in a tourist or student area to deal with annual surges in demand. Or maybe someone has a warehouse full of facemasks because they think the price will 10x in the next pandemic. We'd have the same crowd complaining about empty buildings saying they were just doing it to hide the fact that the building is empty when in fact that is a pretty reasonable strategy that would be socially beneficial.
anigbrowl
That would be true in a normal economy where supply and demand dominated. See an empty storefront/building, hustle up a few bucks and turn it into an art studio or entertainment space or whatever. But if you start using a building you have to pay rent, and if you pay rent that goes on the books, and if it goes on the books then the mortgage on the property gets reevaluated and the then the merry-go-round comes to a screeching halt, because most commercial property is mortgaged up to the eyeballs.
CobrastanJorji
A property tax is intended to be this, I think. You pay for owning an expensive commercial plot. If you are making enough money with it to pay the tax, great. If not, sell it or lose money.
I suppose the model sucks because the community is highly benefited by a low profit cozy coffee shop or book store, which might not be able to afford the property tax rate needed to discourage the "keep it vacant" strategy.
Maybe I changed my mind, and "vacant and/or not being used for its zoning purpose" needs a separate, additional fee.
Triesault
> Interesting, but It doesn't answer why a bank would hold a completely vacant building for 15 years.
I had the exact same question before I fully read the article.
This is answered in the article in the "Extend and Pretend" section.
> "And so long as the operator can afford to keep losing $140k per year on the building… they can!"
> [...]
> "The only sticking point here is that the building operator is still losing $140k per year. But remember that, if he gives up, he loses the $4 million he’s already put into the building. Even if he ended up paying $140k per year for 10 years before things turned around, losing $1.4 million is still better than losing $4 million."
Extending the article's example to a scenario where the building was vacant for 15 years, it means the operator was willing to lose $140K per year. In the 15 year scenario, the operator lost $2.1 million ($140K * 15 years) which is still better than losing the $4 million if the operator walked away from the investment.
> Anything that makes owning an empty building a bad investment in all circumstances.
In the final section "This Sucks, What Could We Do About It?", it mentions how adding a vacant store font tax would end up creating more foreclosures. This is the side effect of the financialization of real estate.
Aunche
A vacancy tax would work on areas with high demand, but it also punishes areas that are already struggling.
staplers
why a bank would hold a completely vacant building for 15 years.
Allows for inflated valuations and hypotheticals which appear on paper as absolute but in reality are much lower.By leasing for cheaper they effectively capitulate and sell at a loss which will hammer their funding ability. It's land speculation similar to tech speculation. Inflate valuations, get a longer runway from lenders, etc.
At some point it has to come back to reality, but as the saying goes: "The market (land owners) can remain irrational longer than you (businesses) can remain solvent."
null
yesfitz
Something that's not addressed is how this situation plays out for 5-over-1 development[1] that's becoming the norm (or other mixed-use buildings).
Basically, the buildings cashflow solely on the residential, but the commercial space is/was valued optimistically (especially leading up to the 2020 pandemic). So a building's owner isn't in a financial bind, and if they were to lower rent on the commercial space, even if they didn't lose the building, it would be much harder to refinance the next time their loan matured. (Commercial loans are frequently "balloon" loans that have payments like they're amortizing over 30 years, but they mature before then, meaning the borrower either has to pay the remaining amount of the loan, or refinance.)
Possible Solution:
I've been thinking about a cumulative vacancy tax that increases every year a space is vacant (and decreases for every year it's occupied). So a building owner or loan underwriter could project when a vacancy would become more costly than lowering rent.
You could charge the tax on the assessed value of the vacant space. Increase it by 100 basis points for every year that a space is vacant. Decrease it by 200 basis points for every year that it's rented.
strongpigeon
A problem is that the externalities of leaving a space vacant are not priced in. Having a bunch of storefront vacant in an area makes it much less appealing and devalues all the other properties surrounding it. It does seem like a vacant storefront tax, which is briefly mentioned at the end of the article, could address this, if partially.
This whole extend and pretend deal seems like it's simply accumulating risk hoping this will pass, while risking an even bigger, potentially systemic crash. Though I honestly don't know that much about the commercial finance world.
bflesch
A "vacant storefront tax" would easily be circumvented by a legal entity with a vending machine business or the "owner" themselves putting one of their "offices" there (a table).
ryandrake
Any realistic vacant land tax with teeth would obviously need to define vacancy such that silly tricks like this wouldn't work.
rwmj
No no no .. snails!
Ferret7446
That would just devalue the surrounding property even more. This is why "we should just do X" is almost always a bad idea.
strongpigeon
> That would just devalue the surrounding property even more.
Why do you think that's the case? I'm sure it would make the entire city seem like a riskier investment at first, but it seems like in the medium term it would help address the situation described in the article.
immibis
By "devalue" you mean "lower the price of" which... seems fine? Useful assets being cheaper is a good thing.
HeyLaughingBoy
As long as you're not the owner of said asset.
jrjeksjd8d
TFA seems to claim that the benefits of "nice buildings" outweigh the externalities of desolate, character-less street levels in cities. It doesn't seem very on brand for Strong Towns.
This phenomenon is going on in the downtown of my city - decreased foot traffic leads to tenants leaving, and the cycle continues. It's a miserable place to live or work that basically becomes a ghost town at 5pm. They're trying to do some office-to-residential conversions, but they're not very desirable because the entire neighborhood feels hollow and abandoned.
Instead of delaying these defaults and accumulating systemic risk until there's a massive correction, someone should be enforcing accounting that marks to market the actual rental value. That would force banks to be honest about the real level of risk on their balance sheets.
lordnacho
It always bothered me that certain things are not marked to market. It's pretty much the point of financializing the economy, that you can then get a current value for things, instead of being able to pretend everything is fine.
The problem is that if you don't update values continuously, you are surprised when you finally are forced to. Some stock on the public market that isn't doing well goes from 100 to 90, 80, 70... etc, and people thinking about the stock have to make decisions accordingly.
A private loan against that business can sit at 100 until the company decides it can't pay, and suddenly the loan is worth 20.
antognini
Mark-to-market can create liquidity crises when coupled with capitalization requirements, though. This can happen in, e.g., bond markets.
Say a bank is sitting on a pile of very safe bonds. If the interest rate suddenly increases, the mark-to-market value of the bonds goes way down. The bank would still expect to get the full value of all the bonds at maturity. But if the bank has to mark-to-market, the current value may be low enough that capitalization requirements force the bank to sell all the bonds in a fire sale. So even though the bank in theory could have held onto the assets and gotten exactly what it had expected from the start, it instead ends up taking a big loss.
thaumasiotes
I think that's almost what happened to Silicon Valley Bank, except that they weren't required to recapitalize, but all of their customers read their financial disclosures, assumed a mark-to-market loss was an actual loss, and withdrew their money, running the bank.
soared
In the current world isn’t the “downtown parking lot” situation more common? Where the value of the asset is increasing so quickly year over year, that locking in a contract right now for x years mean forfeiting the increases of future years - meaning the value of your asset is more when vacant than when rented/built on? IE why sell my parking lot this year for $5M when I’m 2 years it will be worth $7M, so I’m better off waiting and taking no income for the next two years as opposed to taking $5M and investing it.
thaumasiotes
All you need is 20% annual returns and you're better off with the investment. ;D
arjie
Okay, the problem is ultimately that banks are constrained in the Loan-To-Value ratio they can have, but the value is something they can arbitrarily determine. They're incentivised to make the loan, and the person buying the property is also incentivised to do this, so they use the lever they have: they make up the value such that the loan can be made.
Perhaps if we split off commercial lending arms, allowed them unbounded LTVs, and then allowed them to fail we would get better performance?
It does seem like a pretty complicated problem. We want banks to be reliable, we don't have a pricing mechanism because the market is illiquid, and we have incentives to keep the Potemkin story alive.
Jblx2
If you can pretend that 50% occupancy @ $500k per year total rent is a temporary market slump, why can't you also pretend that 100% occupancy at $700k in rent is also a temporary market slump?
nullocator
This also confused me, especially since we know that over time rents would be raised so maybe in a few years you do hit the target of a million?
mekdoonggi
Empty unit? The right tenant is coming any day now. Rented unit? Can't be rented to imaginary rich/stupid people.
roughly
So the problem here is the banks wrote their loans stupidly and both the bank and the property owner's willing and able to burn money to keep those chickens from coming home to roost, which has an enormous social cost on small business owners, citizens, and other businesses in the area, but the article concludes we can't really do anything about it because it might make the banks sad and cause the renegotiation of a bunch of those shitty contracts.
Since when did "taking a loss" get written out of the definition of "investing"?
tigranbs
Living in SoCal, I almost always prefer to order online. Most local businesses are losing to their e-commerce competitors; no wonder commercial spaces are empty.
I have a side business of a small e-commerce shop. I would consider having physical space just for the sake of luxury, but now I would rather spend that monthly rent on marketing online rather than paying for physical space.
IMHO, that's what is happening. Bank problems or anything else are secondary; if it were profitable to be at the physical location for the businesses, other factors would vanish.
milkytron
The article applies to all kinds of loans for property though.
Apartment complexes could also be 50% vacant and still "worth" their original value if the asking rents remain high.
Office buildings that got cleared out after covid, same thing.
Brick and mortar retail are the same.
The article is more of a criticism of how asset values are calculated and loans are managed to avoid foreclosure. Which results in financially valid buildings/loans that are underutilized because the other option is creating economic equilibrium at the cost of lenders and debt holders.
mekdoonggi
Startup Idea: My company will lease your space for whatever price you want. Then we sub-lease your building at the market rate. We charge the different between the market rate for your building and what you want to charge + a small fee. That way your property retains it's "original" value, but actually gets rented out.
Everyone (especially us) wins!
johnecheck
That's unbelievably stupid. But then again, so is not renting out the space at the market rate so you can pretend it's worth more than it really is. So... good luck, I guess?
anigbrowl
that's the joke.gif
slater
Sounds great! I'll charge you $100 per sqft, and you can sublease it at the current market rate, which is $5 per sq ft.
mekdoonggi
Perfect. That'll be $96 + tip.
We need land value tax bad [1]
In Los Angeles I’ve watched business after business close because their rent was increased by their commercial landlord only for the property to sit vacant in some cases (no exaggeration) for over 5 years!
Thats absurd. Also as a business owner who would like some space to work out of your only options are endless swaths of vacant industrial buildings that are tens of thousands in rent a month. I don’t quite get how anyone runs a brick and mortar or has space to do anything profitable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax