jitbit
parliament32
I think the key problem is that a large number of startups are shipping software in containers, and dotnet requiring a CLR is not particularly well-suited for containerization. It's like the old school Java JVM model. You have to ship a copy of the runtime with every container, and if you're doing proper microservices it's an awful lot of overhead.
Yes I'm aware MS makes it easy to build containers and even single executables, but languages that compile down to an ELF are pretty much a requirement once your deployments are over the 10k containers mark.
paride5745
Exactly this point.
Go and Rust produce native binaries, I wish C# had an official native compiler without the big runtime needs of .Net.
vintagedave
.Net is also good as a platform for other languages. I recently started working with RemObjects, and you can compile languages like Java, Swift, Go and more (VB, Pascal) to .Net. Then, the whole framework and ecosystem is available. I'm liking it a lot.
They have customers who are startups and the 'got to have tools' folk like having lots of languages since they can onboard people who know anything-not-C# and benefit from the .Net library.
sfn42
> they can onboard people who know anything-not-C# and benefit from the .Net library
I don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have the new guy spend a few months getting used to a new language, than have an organization where everyone uses different languages. It's a nightmare a few years down the road when you have 20 different projects in 15 different languages and the people who built them are mostly gone.
People are way too lenient with this stuff IMO. The goal of an organization should be to have one solution to each problem. For example we use .NET for backend and React for frontend. You don't need anything else. People love to talk about the right tool for the job, it's all BS. You can make pretty much any kind of website using react and pretty much any kind of backend using C#. The only reason to choose anything else is preference.
And sure maybe you have some data science people who need python, thats fine. Just don't have one guy using Py, another using R and yet others using Matlab. That's just asking for trouble. Pick one, stick to it. If you're going to make a change then migrate everything. If it's not worth that then the new tool probably isn't such a big deal after all.
ourmandave
It's bad enough when you've got constantly changing "best practices" from MS so the thing you wrote last year doesn't look anything structurally like what you're doing now.
And all the 6-month-old on-line docs and tutorials aren't only useless, but time wasting.
netdevphoenix
> People love to talk about the right tool for the job, it's all BS
This sounds very close minded to me. It is certainly true that there exist tasks if not subdomains where some ecosystems are better than others. Using a hammer for everything might work for you if all your problems are nails. But that doesn't mean that all problems out there are nails
Razengan
Do you also make everyone wear the same clothes, drive the same vehicle, order the same food
randyburden
For what it's worth, the startup I currently work for is built entirely in C# and .NET, as was my previous employer. Both startups are based in the Dallas, TX area. Across both companies, applications were hosted on Azure and AWS using a mix of PaaS services and virtual machines running Windows and Linux. We've consistently found this stack to enable strong productivity and high-velocity release cadences.
miki123211
> Both startups are based in the Dallas, TX area.
Aah that explains it.
For some reason, .NET is extremely popular outside of major tech hubs (notably in Europe), where you're much more likely to work for (without loss of generality) Ikea than for Google.
cheschire
The Dallas area is a major tech hub. It’s just an older hub of major enterprisey type tech companies like Texas Instruments, AT&T, defense contractors like Lockheed, etc.
Office Space took place there before the dotcom bust.
Less enterprisey, but John Carmack and id Software also started there.
DeathArrow
At my current workplace we use a mix of on premise servers and Azure but at former workplaces we deployed to Google Cloud and AWS.
oaiey
Can only confirm that. Such a smooth platform overall for web and API development. We use it with several 100 devs on it and the choice never failed us, neither in technology or hiring. And it is not that we have .NET gurus or anything.
null
balamatom
I'm sorry, I just remembered the few .NET maxis I've shared hours with and tried to extrapolate a whole company full of them. I'm sure they must work great with each other.
Which I guess was the whole premise of the .NET ecosystem, so score one for Redmond, I guess!
Apropos, what do they do for fun? I'll probably never meet 100 .NET devs in my life so honest question.
LandR
> Apropos, what do they do for fun?
Odd question, but as a .NET developer myself
Mountaineering, climbing, bouldering, going to gigs, playing pool, running, music festivals, gaming, photography, watching F1, watching NBA, eating out with friends...
I'm not sure what the point of the question was ?
christophilus
I really liked working with C#. I spent 15 years or so with it and found it very productive. But no; I don’t miss the culture of C# / Microsoft shops at all.
mexicocitinluez
> culture of C# / Microsoft shops at al
What do you mean?
masfoobar
I think the "confusing" aspect with C#, being part of the Microsoft eco-system, is that there are many smaller companies (and startups) that may have concern paying for such tools.
To the uneducated, C# is linked to Visual Studio.. the IDE.. and the Community edition if free as long as you are a student, open-source, and individuals. Professional and Enterprise are paid.
(Yes - there is Visual Studio Code)
Again, I am looking at this from the uneducated. With the above, as well as "going with other Microsoft products" things start to get more expensive. Need a database - should it be SQL Server? Should it be Windows Servers? etc.
Because of the above, I would not be surprised if Go is more popular especially for startups... alongside Linux, MySQL/Postgres, as well as other IDE or text editors. Sure.. I might agree that Visual Studio Code is suited for various programmers today.
Not suggesting you are wrong in any way. It's just the amount of money spent on Windows/Microsoft for small companies is rather large, compared to other alternatives that are just as good.
CharlieDigital
> It's just the amount of money spent on Windows/Microsoft for small companies is rather large, compared to other alternatives that are just as good.
We have a full team using C# at a series-C, YC startup with every developer on Macs (some on Beelinks and Linux). The team is using a mix of VS Code, Cursor, and Rider. We deploy to Linux container instances in GKE on Google Cloud running Postgres.
There is no more tie in to Microsoft licensing than there is say for TypeScript. Yes, C# DevKit is licensed like VS, but if you don't need the features, then you can also use DotRush or just use the free C# Extension.
martinald
Totally agree.
Ironically dotnet runs better on Linux/Mac systems in my experience. All our devs who use Windows for dotnet dev now use WSL2 as it matches production. We don't use any other 'commercial' Microsoft products like SQL Server or Azure. All postgres/redis/etc and deploy onto docker containers.
lou1306
> Need a database - should it be SQL Server?
"I am using Java. Need a database - should it be Oracle?"
.NET Core 1.0 was released almost a _decade_ ago.
theshrike79
C# is massive in (mobile) gaming because of Unity.
And when the front-end is C#, it only makes sense to do the backend in .NET too so you can share classes easily.
tinyspacewizard
Start-ups should strongly consider F#.
It's a force multiplier when you have a small team of strong developers.
Xelbair
>startups should consider niche language with extremely limited hiring pool.
sure, but only if you're doing something that actually demands it - and actual innovation - instead of usual 'lets repackage XYZ as SaaS and growthhack' strategy.
bonesss
F# is less popular, but it’s a first class .Net language with full MS support and integration onto .Net (VM and ecosystem). C# has been tracking F# and aiming for language parity for years (ie all your modern C# devs should be learning the same language facilities). F# is multi-paradigm so C# devs can write idiomatic C# with minor forced changes. And as a .Net language you can always decompile it into C# and keep going from there.
That’s a radically different proposition than, say, raw OCaml and not particularly niche. It also impacts hiring pools differently since competent functional C# devs are viable, but it tends to appeal to a certain calibre of dev.
Moving faster with fewer errors and more talented candidate pool are relevant to repackaged SaaS startups too. Leaves more time for the other stuff and scales better.
dude250711
It's good for, and I am not being sarcastic or snarky, justifying high pay and gate-keeping. Developers should set up more barriers for entry - look at doctors and lawyers.
ikety
F# seems really awesome. Used it briefly for an internal tool. Are you at a startup working with it?
jcmontx
I've worked with .NET for over 10 years and we built our startup on top of it. Here are my thoughts:
Pros:
* Stability
* Very decent standard library
* Good balance between productivity and robustness
* Great package management
* Extremely easy to upgrade, so essentially free goodies (performance) every year or so
Cons:
* Very MSFT dominated (obviously)
* Subpar tooling outside of Windows (I'm looking at you C# Dev Kit)
* C# has way to many features, it feels bloated
* Culturally, it feels like .NET devs are less "passionate" about their work
* The freaking stigma of being a .NET dev: you will never be as cool as the guys who work with Node/Python/whatever
duxup
Anecdotal opinion , but as someone who works in Node and JS land a lot of the time. I think .NET is pretty cool.
theshrike79
> * Culturally, it feels like .NET devs are less "passionate" about their work
Only in the "stove pipe industry" as we say here. Mobile gaming is massively C#-based for example and the people are really passionate about what they do.
And for a backend dev, the scale of stuff you get to work with is cool.
nozzlegear
As a daily user of F#, I'm most looking forward to the support for "and!" in computation expressions. There are a few performance-critical pieces of code I can think of that are currently wrapped up in "Task.WhenAll" / "Parallel.ForEachAsync" that I'd like to extract back into "native" F# task computations.
null
cies
I really like F# (as I like OCaml, Elm and Haskell); but I'm always afraid MS will kill it one day.
It helps that now most (if not all) parts of the stack are open source and run on Linux.
madarcho
Where is this worry coming from? (I'm curious, not shutting it down)
I might be biased from having worked with production F#, but it feels more like functional is making its way into C#, as the general industry sees value in functional principles. So F# feels like its more here to stay?
azertify
Doesn't it feel like the functional stuff is coming into C# so that F# can disappear? Pure speculation on my part but doesn't seem unreasonable.
vintermann
C# Dev Kit, which VSCode pressures you to install, is a core very non-free component.
EdNutting
It’s exciting to see so much deep computer science that’s gone into optimising the language / JIT / GC / etc (inc. utilising hardware advances).
In a world obsessed with AI and web tech, this is a refreshing read!
Arisaka1
Every time I read about new .NET version improvements I always remember my attempt to get a job using this stack in my local job market (Greece), where .NET Framework is super prevalent, majorly used by classic companies that don't even give you a fair technical chance if you lack a degree, and the devs are considered to be a cost center.
I really, REALLY wish I was in another timeline where I could say in an interview "yes, I use Linux on my desktop and Rider for my IDE" without being seen as a traveler from outer space.
I enjoy working with modern C# way more than node.js but... that's it.
netdevphoenix
> I really, REALLY wish I was in another timeline where I could say in an interview "yes, I use Linux on my desktop and Rider for my IDE" without being seen as a traveler from outer space.
Could you please elaborate? Are you referring to most .NET shops not straying away from Windowsland?
Arisaka1
It's not about what the company uses, but how informed the technical people responsible for hiring candidates are around the ecosystem they claim they work with.
Example:
Expected: "Oh, you're on Linux? I heard about Rider. We use Windows and Visual Studio here for parity. You're okay with that, right?" (me: Obviously, tools are tools)
Actual: "Does .NET run on Linux? What is Rider?"
I mean, .NET has been running on Linux since forever now (11 years according to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9459513, let's say about 9 for stability because I feel generous). How do they not know about it?
metadata
A bit off-topic, bit hiring exceptional .NET developers is like searching for a needle in a haystack. Way more people have a ton of experience with JS and marginal experience with .NET, just writing very basic API endpoints - yet claiming serious experience.
If you came to me for an interview, your story would have been a breath of fresh air. So maybe try to mention it anyway, someone will be interested.
jve
How come this quickly fell off main page and is ranked 395 right now?
Don't know how trustworthy is this but it seems like it never was on top30: https://hnrankings.info/45888620/
This has 74 upvotes and posted 16hrs ago.. @dang?
tomhow
It looks like it was hit by some software penalties that lowered it in the rankings more than it should have been, then it just continued dropping.
I've restored it to the front page and wound back the clock so it gets its rightful dose of front page time.
aeonfox
Literally just got yoinked up from rank 199 to 2.
https://hackernews.life/?s=top&id=45888620&t=1762939537
It arrived at rank 86:
kfuse
Updated a pet project of mine and got a minor break:
var pixels = new uint[renderers.width * renderers.height];
var pixels2 = MemoryMarshal.Cast<uint, ulong>(pixels);
pixels2[idx] = ...
Spans is such a fundamental tool for low level programming. It is really unfortunate they were added relatively late to the language. Now every new version includes a slew of improvements related to them but they will never be as good as if they were there from the start or at least as early as generics were.
frenzcan
At last, extension properties in C#. I’ve been waiting for these for years.
bob1029
These improvements are really making me look forward to Unity finishing their CoreCLR conversion. I think this will be one of the more disruptive announcements once it's complete.
high_na_euv
C# has the best ecosystem out there.
I wish CPP development was as robust as C# development is
bilekas
They are very different beasts.. What problems are you having with CPP that you're not with C# ? Funny enough a lot of the 'ecosystem' is on the back of cpp..
theshrike79
With C# (.NET) I can click on "install package" in my editor and within seconds it's downloaded and in my project.
With C++ it's a whole different thing.
high_na_euv
Evaluating complex expressions during debugging.
In c# I can evaluate complex linq data transformation in watch window in visual studio during debug, at fly.
In cpp I cannot. Not even nested evaluation is working.
bilekas
Ah okay, yes, debugging tools are a bit more friendly with C# but it's again the nature of the beast of cpp, but to nitpick this is a compiler area moreso than a tooling issue . CPP will compile direct to binary, whereas C# will compile to machine Lang iirc, an intermediary step anyway, so you can imagine it makes debugging much easier.
ethin
How is .NET debugging on the command line? I don't use IDEs that often and last time I tried making something serious with .NET I couldn't find any kind of reliable debugger that I could just spin up and get to grips with. And I wasn't exactly very keen on switching from VS build tools to full VS just to debug .NET apps.
formerly_proven
Isn't the official .NET debugger only allowed to be used from Visual Studio and VSC? I recall Jetbrains had to remove debugging support from their IDE for a while due to that license. Also the whole kerfuffle around hot reloading first being added to .NET (Core) and then the code being deleted because it was supposed to be a VS-only feature.
These things to me seem like one faction in MSFT wants .NET to be an open platform and another faction wants it to be a sales funnel for Visual Studio.
ralferoo
> Today, we are excited to announce the launch of .NET 10, the most productive, modern, secure, intelligent, and performant release of .NET yet.
It looks like they got someone from Apple to write their press release.
For us, every .NET upgrade since .NET 5 has gone surprisingly smoothly and reduced CPU/RAM usage by 10–15%.
We were even able to downgrade our cloud servers to smaller instances, literally.
I wish .NET was more popular among startups, if only C# could get rid of the "enterpisey" stigma.