Endorsing easily disproven claims linked to prioritizing symbolic strength
39 comments
·October 17, 2025tremon
mmooss
> It's been well-documented for years that repeating known falsehoods is about declaring tribal allegiance
That's only a small part of what the article says.
tremon
Can you expand on the other things that the article says? I don't see many new angles, all I see is reformulations of the exact same premise. Claims of strength vs weakness are directly analogous to professing in-group allegiance. Replacing tribalism with symbolism doesn't change the underlying mechanism, especially when a few paragraphs later they directly link symbolic thinking with "authoritarian attitudes", completing the circle back to tribalism.
mmooss
I posted a bunch here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45618020
> Claims of strength vs weakness are directly analogous to professing in-group allegiance.
They are mostly orthogonal imho. I can be strong without being in-group, and vice versa. In a group whose ideology is worship of power, then I can see a relationship but they aren't at all the same. For example, there are those who take the role of the weak who are worshipping power (and sometimes wanting it) and a defined power structure, like people who identify with being 'betas' and incels.
energy123
> declaring tribal allegiance
The article is not talking about signalling/declaring tribal allegiance. The article is saying that people support lies because they see the public argument as an informational battlespace that their side needs to be victorious over, and the truth is irrelevant. Endorsing lies is a necessary evil to prevent your side from losing ground.
lokar
I think you can see this in how this behavior cuts across ideological lines. You see left people acting this way on many topics going back many years, and the same on the right. And then the ease with which many engaged with this "switch sides" (in terms of US politics), as with RFK Jr and his followers. I don't think it's really a traditional partisan or "tribal" thing for them.
dvt
> For example, President Donald Trump incorrectly claimed in August 2025 that crime in Washington D.C. was at an all-time high, generating countless fact-checks of his premise and think pieces about his dissociation from reality.
This is a dubious example to give. Even NPR (which skews liberal) has given a much more nuanced[1] interpretation of the numbers. Obviously Trump's claim is hyperbolic and inflammatory (per his MO), but the sentiment does seem to resonate with at least some folks in DC, particularly ones that moved there in the early 2010s (when crime was at an all-time low).
[1] https://www.npr.org/2025/08/19/nx-s1-5506208/dc-crime-trump-...
brookst
I don't see anything in that link that suggests ANY interpretation could support Trump's "all-time high" claim. Substituting sentiment for data is doesn't make the claim true.
mjburgess
The article links to analysis showing as the frequency of violent attacks has decreased (slightly), those which are lethal have increased.
https://counciloncj.org/less-frequent-more-deadly/?fbclid=Iw...
> In a sample of 17 large American cities, the lethality of violent offenses increased 31% from 2019 to 2020 and was 20% higher in 2024 than in 2018. Thirteen of the 17 cities had higher lethality levels in 2024 than in 2018.
estearum
“Crime increased in recent years”
Is a very different claim from
“Crime is at the highest level it’s ever been”
empath75
The peak of murders in DC was 482 in 1991. In 2024, it was 187.
That pattern will be true in nearly every city you look at. We are not at all time highs or even close in most cities.
mmooss
Some excerpts:
> When people think symbolically this way, the literal issue – here, fighting COVID-19 – is secondary to a psychological war over people’s minds. In the minds of those who think they’re engaged in them, psychological wars are waged over opinions and attitudes, and are won via control of belief and messaging.
> people who responded positively to these statements would feel they “win” by endorsing misinformation – doing so can show “the enemy” that it will not gain any ground over people’s views.
> vaccination, masking or other COVID-19 prevention efforts could be seen as a symbolic risk that could “weaken” one psychologically even if they provide literal physical benefits.
> The more outlandish or easily disproved something is, the more powerful one might seem when standing by it. Being an edgelord – a contrarian online provocateur – or outright lying can, in their own odd way, appear “authentic.”
> this mindset was also strongly associated with authoritarian attitudes, including beliefs that some groups should dominate others and support for autocratic government. These links help explain why strongman leaders often use misinformation symbolically to impress and control a population.
> they want those far-fetched claims acted on anyway. The deployment of National Guard troops to Washington, for example, can be the desired end goal, even if the offered justification is a transparent farce.
> debunkers merely demonstrate that they’re the ones reacting, and are therefore weak.
Another way to describe it, I think, is that some people use words as weapons, not as a means of transmitting knowledge.
So many people - even sophisticated leaders - opposed to disinformation don't understand that, and keep debunking and arguing, demonstrating with everything they say that they are losing a fight they don't even understand.
empath75
People state things for a few reasons.
1) They believe it is true. 2) They want to believe it is true. 3) They want _you_ to believe it is true. 4) They want you to believe that _they_ believe it is true.
Not all of those things may be true and in most cases they are not.
Just take the simple statement: "God exists." and consider all the many possible motivations for people saying that.
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pessimizer
This stupid article is being pushed by multiple channels today. There's an easier explanation other than the self-serving "Our interpretation is that people who responded positively to these statements would feel they 'win' by endorsing misinformation – doing so can show 'the enemy' that it will not gain any ground over people’s views." Which incidentally, is a conclusion based on no science, it's just a WaPo editorial.
People believed a bunch of nonsense because people in authority were knowingly lying to them and intentionally confusing the facts at every turn. Normal people have no expertise, so they need to trust someone, and the people who were appointed to those positions of trust showed themselves willing to lie to help their own finances and careers, and to push transient political agendas.
They were left to trust other random people, like their religious leaders, or their family members - anybody who seemed like they had any moral grounding or conscience at all. They also trusted people who also pointed out that official institutional figures were lying - which is a mistake. It's easy for a scammer to point out another scammer, that doesn't mean you should trust him.
All the 5G conspiracy theories are just a reaction to how aggressively and undemocratically 5G was pushed. People intelligently and reasonably assume that if you are willing to run over everybody to do something from which there are enormous amounts of money to be made, you might not give two shits about any health consequences. This is also true, and they are right, but it doesn't mean that there are health consequences, which is the mistake.
But you know everything would have happened the same way if 5G were going to end up doubling the cancer rate or autism, or whatever other bad thing. We just wouldn't hear about it for 50 years, the people who got rich from it would have died of old age surrounded by their fat happy grandchildren, and their silver-spoon kids (your bosses) would be the ones in charge of the investigations and the remedies.
mmooss
> a conclusion based on no science
What about the research they did, including surveying 5,535 people across eight countries?
What science are your claims based on?
> stupid
Why is it so important for you to bring them down?
TimorousBestie
> What about the research they did, including surveying 5,535 people across eight countries?
The size of the study is irrelevant if we can’t verify the methodology, and of course those details, if they were published at all, are behind the paywall.
mmooss
> those details, if they were published at all
They link to the study. These critcisms are a little hard to fathom as information: Is it symbolism of something, the same thing they describe?
brookst
Wait, so is it stupid non-science we should insult? Or is it just a claim that we can't verify without a deep dive into methodology? Hopefully those are two very different things.
lokar
I don't think 5G was push undemocratically. A small group of people complaining and getting pushed aside is not undemocratic. They were a tiny minority.
tremon
Thank you for illustrating the point of the article. You don't care if any of the claims you're making are true, you are simply looking to score a goal for your tribe. And all of us who disagree with you are simply weak-minded because we don't accept your "easier explanations", right?
p_j_w
>All the 5G conspiracy theories are just a reaction to how aggressively and undemocratically 5G was pushed.
What the hell does this even mean? Are we upset that carriers and handset manufacturers adopting 5G wasn't put up for a vote? Did adoption of 5G cause some great harm to people?
mjburgess
The more formal point you're making here is that the survey data social psychologists work with can be explained by an infinite number of hypothesis, and the "statistical testing" they do is basically pseudoscience. All they ask is "is my favoured hypothesis more likely than random?" and that's true, but it says nothing about lots of other explanations.
Here everything can be explained by lines of trust, and resilience to information from low-trust sources.
Indeed, it's highly rational to highly doubt sources you do not trust, because you are almost never in a position to validation information.
Either way, the explanations they choose lead to a clearly partisan political narrative, way outside of the scope of their survey studies, that science washes attacks on trump and his supporters.
lokar
You argue that people have been lead astray by lying politicians. I think it's equally likely that opportunist politicians are following these conspiracy theories, promoting them to benefit from the phenomenon observed in the study.
mjburgess
It's a shame they detoured from social psychology into politics. The claim that false information has social value, and therefore symbolic value, is easy to substantiate without the partisan political analysis which amounts to, "and that's why our political enemies do it!". Very childish.
mmooss
How did they detour into politics? They are addressing events in the real world, which is what science is about, and for social psychologists that definitely includes politics.
andrewflnr
They did put a picture of Donald Trump in there. That's not subtle. Granted, it may have been the editor's choice rather than the authors'.
mjburgess
The whole thing is just "here's a narrow result in psychology" connected to grand theories about contemporary politics which implicate the current administration and its supporters into a reductionist explanatory analysis that is widely out of the scope of what they've actually studied.
They did not study trump, trump supporters, trump's political project, its motivations, their motivations, authoritarianism, etc. All of that analysis in this article is partisan politics with sciecne-washing.
mjburgess
If they are studying universal features of human psychology, their analysis should pertain to these features.
By wading into contemporary politics and attributing "authoritarian" psychology to people who want to believe, e.g., what trump says -- you're only making a partisan political statement. This hypothesis is one amongst an infinite number, and has nothing to do with their study.
"Oh but it feels true!" is exactly the opposite of science. They did not study Trump, nor his political strategies, not their supposed underlying psychological motivations.
One can find in every government in the world so-called "misinformation", and find in people who support those governments, credulity about this misinformation. They havent studied any of the relevant domains to make any of these partisan political claims, even if they are true.
By wading into contemporary politics, they are giving the veener of science to highly partisan claims about the supposed psychology of political actors. That isnt what they have studied.
mmooss
Could you cite at least something in the article that you are referring to? What you say doesn't match what I read. It becomes misinformation itself otherwise.
> "Oh but it feels true!"
Where is that said or implied? They did research and described it.
> attributing "authoritarian" psychology to people who want to believe, e.g., what trump says -- you're only making a partisan political statement. This hypothesis is one amongst an infinite number, and has nothing to do with their study.
They did indeed study that and discussed the research. We need to study partisan behavior without being dismissed as partisan ourselves - otherwise, we just operate in the dark, shut down by partisan attacks.
> One can find in every government in the world so-called "misinformation", and find in people who support those governments, credulity about this misinformation.
There is precipitation everywhere, but some places are deserts and some are rainforests and there is everything in between, and there are many patterns and causes, from monsoons to mist from SF Bay. To dismiss all precipitation research because 'rain is everywhere' is meaningless.
You're making many claims, but have nothing to back it up.
> They did not study Trump, nor his political strategies
They didn't talk about Trump.
righthand
Disagree, it is important to point out the tactics people use against each other, if we do not demonstrate and point out the weaponry in the world then we normalize servitude to the abusers. Arm and defend yourself against your abuser and know their game.
antonvs
Studying the widespread beliefs in misinformation about COVID-19 is perfectly valid, and important. It just so happens that the beliefs in question were overwhelmingly held by members of a very specific political group. The research described in the article helps explain this connection.
This isn't a new insight. It's been well-documented for years that repeating known falsehoods is about declaring tribal allegiance, it's not about the content of the claims themselves.
A quick web search on fake news and tribalism reveals these earlier articles:
2017: https://fortune.com/2017/01/13/fake-news-tribalism/
2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/11/upshot/the-real-story-abo...
2023: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xge-xge0001374.pd...