Piano Keys
32 comments
·July 15, 2025bruce343434
o11c
Same, but I had to look. I wonder how badly this affects muscle memory?
madaxe_again
In my experience, you fumble for a minute and then you adapt. I had a Young Chang that followed this model, and a Yamaha at school that didn’t.
Nition
Interesting, my piano is a Yamaha (specifically a 1980 Yamaha YUA, basically a U3), and it does follow the model (same width everywhere).
Photo: https://i.imgur.com/ulsLUoG.jpeg
I also have a MIDI keyboard (M-Audio Hammer 88) which follows the same model.
I'd like to see a photo of someone's piano that uses a different system, really I thought they were always this way. It's a good system because it lets the black keys be spaced a little further apart, while also reducing the jump between black key clusters.
blobbers
This is fascinating! I’ve never played a YC seriously, but I have played several Yamahas and currently play on a Kawai and Baldwin. I’ve often wondered if the Baldwin or Yamaha is laid out slightly differently than the Kawai because I feel like playing broken 4 note chords the fingering can feel off on one piano vs another. It’s a slight stretch but the 4-5 on the second 4 note chord can be uncomfortable on the Kawai and comfortable on the Yamaha. I never play them in the same room, one is at my teachers and one at home.
Very interesting! Is there a spec for this? Or a layout description? Surely something as precise as piano would note this.
blobbers
Generally speaking fumbling on a piano doesn’t bode well for performance… it’s a little bit like Olympic gymnastics, you only get one chance to stick the landing!
ralfd
I didn’t understand this post? More pictures needed?
moefh
I always thought the canonical way to place the black keys was to divide the octave in the two parts that have the sequential black keys (C-D-E and F-G-A-B), and then simply place the black keys so they're the same distance away from each other and the edge of the parts.
That means that the white keys in each of the groups have "mirrors": for example, C is a mirror of E, D is a mirror of itself (it's the only key like that), F is a mirror of B, and G is a mirror of A.
I just looked at the keyboards I have around me (a slightly-above-low-end digital piano, a small midi controller, and a small 90s synth), and they all seem to fit that description.
ETA: note that the image in the article doesn't fit this description: for example the D is way too narrow (the black keys around it should be much further apart).
ETA2: I just noticed that this seems to be the "B/12 solution" described in the article.
ajuc
I never understood why the piano keyboard isn't regular. It forces players to remember different positions for the same chord transposed to start at different notes.
Like why do I have to remember the shape for C major and D major chords? It should be the same shape just starting at C vs D.
It's not even that hard to fix. There's 12 semitones in an octave. Just make it 6 white 6 black keys.
brudgers
It forces players to remember different positions for the same chord transposed to start at different notes.
The piano was developed well before equal temperament came to dominate tuning. [1] So each musical key would have different harmonic relationships between the intervals within it. And musical keys were not thought of as equal.
Generally, the musical keys based on “black keys”/“sharps and flats” would be farther from an ideal tuning and there were better and worse sounding keys depending on which musical keys a piano was tuned for.
Historically in Western European music, there were preferred keys and intervals inherited from Plain Chant (roughly C,G, & F and octave, perfect 4th, perfect 5th, and the 6th).
Of course using an electronic instrument that can be electronically transposed up and down by half steps might be an easy way to avoid learning lots of fingerings.
[1] https://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~mrubinst/tuning/tuning.html
Nition
With the irregular layout we have now, some keys are easy (e.g. C) and some are hard (e.g. B). If you make the layout regular, putting a black note between every white note, then every key becomes the same, but also quite hard, because every major scale is now played like this: https://i.imgur.com/6EmW8eU.gif
It's not a particularly good tradeoff. If you got rid of the black keys entirely instead, you'd have to remember which keys to skip. Harder for beginners than just playing in C.
There is the Janko keyboard though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janko_keyboard
yayitswei
I'm picky about layouts - I type in Dvorak, learned Janko via Chromatone, currently playing harpejji.
Coming from a classical piano background, there was definitely a learning curve, but I feel like it was worth it. Every chord shape is identical across all keys (C major and D major would be played the same way), which makes it much easier to learn jazz voicings or modulate a song.
If anyone ever builds a quality grand piano with Janko layout, I'm buying! Hacks on hacks become unnecessary if you start with the right design.
Snarwin
It's not actually that much to remember. There are 3 shapes that cover most of the major chords, and 3 special cases (F♯, B♭, and B).
jng
The white keys form a sequence of notes (frequencies) that is known as the diatonic scale. It's the foundation underlying all popular western music. It is not random or arbitrary, it has some nice dual mathematical and musical properties: intervals between the notes in the scale have special frequency ratios that sound pleasing to the ear (read Helmholtz's "On the sensations of tone" for a fascinating physically-based take on why it is like that -- he is known as "the father of acoustics", and that book contains the distillation of 8 years of deep, smart research way before we had the means or understanding we hav today). A ton, if not most, of popular music can be played using only the white keys.
There used to be keyboards with other different arrangements, which were actually extremely cumbersome and actually didn't allow very rich and interesting musical excursions like modulations (look up "microtonal keyboards"). Today's standard keyboard and tuning is a compromise between those fundamentally mathematical and perceptual acoustic relations (the tonic, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the major and minor third, the "sensible" or subtonic...) and the ability to perform those trans-tonality excursions. A fully regular keyboard like you propose would lend itself more easily to those excursions, at the cost of being less apt at the foundational diatonic model and most popular music.
Interestingly also, the notes used by modern keyboards and all modern instruments, and to which we are all so accustomed that we thing it "just is", is an imperfect compromise that needed a lot of selling back in the day, much of which was done by Bach (the compromise scale is called the "tempered scale", and Bach authored the arch-famous "Well-tempered clavier" pieces to show it off -- impossible to perform on keyboards with other tunings).
And of course, there is a tradition factor. English isn't written like this because it's optimizing for any easily describable or measurable optimization metric, more like it minimized a socio-perceptual function covering many centuries of UX.
Finally, if you want an instrument where all keys are equal, you can always move to a fretboard based one like the guitar. Funnily, it has a one-semitone-short jump between strings 3 and 2 that will throw off the desire of full regularity... again due to diatonic leanings. A bass guitar is fully regular, even when they add a 5th and 6th string, so that may fulfill your wish of a fully regular instrument... and it sounds awesome! Just can't do the same things as a piano or a guitar.
brudgers
I agree, the white keys on a piano represent a diatonic scale, but because today’s pianos are rarely tuned to anything other than 12TET, there are few interesting mathematical relationships between notes in practice (and pianos are normally tuned with high notes sharp and low notes flat because that’s how piano strings tend to produce their partials anyway).
Also worth noting the black keys represent a major pentatonic scale and the major pentatonic scale is how many of the earliest bone flutes are tuned.
ofalkaed
>Interestingly also, the notes used by modern keyboards and all modern instruments
Vast majority of fretted instruments since the death of the lute are untempered.
Edit: Which is not to suggest that lutes were tempered. Lutes and other tied fret instruments allow for unequal fret spacing so you can temper one string at the cost of more notes being more off from the temperament on other strings, or the frets being at an angle so you could find a bit of a compromise. But often they were EDO or in the ancient tradition of fretted instruments, close enough for rock and roll.
moefh
Do you mean equal-tempered?
I never heard someone describe a tuning system as "untempered", but I guess it would mean something like just intonation -- which sounds really great for playing anything in a specific key but falls horribly apart if you try to change the key (which is why it has seen very little use since the renaissance).
skybrian
Chromatic button accordions have each octave in three rows of four instead of two rows of five and seven like a piano. It's very regular, but doesn't match up with major or minor scales or with sheet music. A major scale is a zig-zag.
I play both piano and button accordion and they're just different. Neither one has a compelling advantage.
IsTom
Historically before twelve tone equal temperament playing in another key on a keyboard instrument would sound different.
ncake
Same. I recently tried to find a MIDI keyboard like that for sale and got nothing. Apparently this is what it's called:
On my (accoustic) piano, the black keys are just as wide as the back ends of the white keys. This is achieved by shifting the position of the black keys a bit, instead of centering them right between the white keys.