How large are large language models?
145 comments
·July 2, 2025ljoshua
rain1
It's extremely interesting how powerful a language model is at compression.
When you train it to be an assistant model, it's better at compressing assistant transcripts than it is general text.
There is an eval which I have a lot of interested in and respect for https://huggingface.co/spaces/Jellyfish042/UncheatableEval called UncheatableEval, which tests how good of a language model an LLM is by applying it on a range of compression tasks.
This task is essentially impossible to 'cheat'. Compression is a benchmark you cannot game!
soulofmischief
Knowledge is learning relationships by decontextualizing information into generalized components. Application of knowledge is recontextualizing these components based on the problem at hand.
This is essentially just compression and decompression. It's just that with prior compression techniques, we never tried leveraging the inherent relationships encoded in a compressed data structure, because our compression schemes did not leverage semantic information in a generalized way and thus did not encode very meaningful relationships other than "this data uses the letter 'e' quite a lot".
A lot of that comes from the sheer amount of data we throw at these models, which provide enough substrate for semantic compression. Compare that to common compression schemes in the wild, where data is compressed in isolation without contributing its information to some model of the world. It turns out that because of this, we've been leaving a lot on the table with regards to compression. Another factor has been the speed/efficiency tradeoff. GPUs have allowed us to put a lot more into efficiency, and the expectations that many language models only need to produce text as fast as it can be read by a human means that we can even further optimize for efficiency over speed.
Also, shout out to Fabrice Bellard's ts_zip, which leverages LLMs to compress text files. https://bellard.org/ts_zip/
MPSimmons
Agreed. It's basically lossy compression for everything it's ever read. And the quantization impacts the lossiness, but since a lot of text is super fluffy, we tend not to notice as much as we would when we, say, listen to music that has been compressed in a lossy way.
arcticbull
I've been referring to LLMs as JPEG for all the world's data, and people have really started to come around to it. Initially most folks tended to outright reject this comparison.
entropicdrifter
It's a bit like if you trained a virtual band to play any song ever, then told it to do its own version of the songs. Then prompted it to play whatever specific thing you wanted. It won't be the same because it kinda remembers the right thing sorta, but it's also winging it.
thecosas
A neat project you (and others) might want to check out: https://kiwix.org/
Lots of various sources that you can download locally to have available offline. They're even providing some pre-loaded devices in areas where there may not be reliable or any internet access.
tasuki
8.1 GB is a lot!
It is 64,800,000,000 bits.
I can imagine 100 bits sure. And 1,000 bits why not. 10,000 you lose me. A million? That sounds like a lot. Now 64 million would be a number I can't well imagine. And this is a thousand times 64 million!
nico
For reference (according to Google):
> The English Wikipedia, as of June 26, 2025, contains over 7 million articles and 63 million pages. The text content alone is approximately 156 GB, according to Wikipedia's statistics page. When including all revisions, the total size of the database is roughly 26 terabytes (26,455 GB)
sharkjacobs
better point of reference might be pages-articles-multistream.xml.bz2 (current pages without edit/revision history, no talk pages, no user pages) which is 20GB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Wh...?
inopinatus
this is a much more deserving and reliable candidate for any labels regarding the breadth of human knowledge.
pcrh
Wikipedia itself describes its size as ~25GB without media [0]. And it's probably more accurate and with broader coverage in multiple languages compared to the LLM downloaded by the GP.
pessimizer
Really? I'd assume that an LLM would deduplicate Wikipedia into something much smaller than 25GB. That's its only job.
mapt
What happens if you ask this 8gb model "Compose a realistic Wikipedia-style page on the Pokemon named Charizard"?
How close does it come?
swyx
the study of language models from an information theory/compression POV is a small field but increasingly impt for efficiency/scaling - we did a discussion about this today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWIKyLSUBIc&t=2269s
divbzero
The Encyclopædia Britannica has about 40,000,000 words [1] or about 0.25 GB if you assume 6 bytes per word. It’s impressive but not outlandish that an 8.1 GB file could encode a large swath of human information.
null
dgrabla
Back in the '90s, we joked about putting “the internet” on a floppy disk. It’s kind of possible now.
Lu2025
Yeah, those guys managed to steal the internet.
agumonkey
Intelligence is compression some say
Nevermark
Very much so!
The more and faster a “mind” can infer, the less it needs to store.
Think how much fewer facts a symbolic system that can perform calculus needs to store, vs. an algebraic, or just arithmetic system, to cover the same numerical problem solving space. Many orders of magnitude less.
The same goes for higher orders of reasoning. General or specific subject related.
And higher order reasoning vastly increases capabilities extending into new novel problem spaces.
I think model sizes may temporarily drop significantly, after every major architecture or training advance.
In the long run, “A circa 2025 maxed M3 Ultra Mac Studio is all you need!” (/h? /s? Time will tell.)
agumonkey
I don't know who else took notes by diffing their own assumptions with lectures / talks. There was a notion of what's really new compared to previous conceptual state, what adds new information.
tshaddox
Some say that. But what I value even more than compression is the ability to create new ideas which do not in any way exist in the set of all previously-conceived ideas.
benreesman
I'm toying with the phrase "precedented originality" as a way to describe the optimal division of labor when I work with Opus 4 running hot (which is the first one where I consistently come out ahead by using it). That model at full flog seems to be very close to the asymptote for the LLM paradigm on coding: they've really pulled out all the stops (the temperature is so high it makes trivial typographical errors, it will discuss just about anything, it will churn for 10, 20, 30 seconds to first token via API).
Its good enough that it has changed my mind about the fundamental utility of LLMs for coding in non-Javascript complexity regimes.
But its still not an expert programmer, not by a million miles, there is no way I could delegate my job to it (and keep my job). So there's some interesting boundary that's different than I used to think.
I think its in the vicinity of "how much precedent exists for this thought or idea or approach". The things I bring to the table in that setting have precedent too, but much more tenuously connected to like one clear precedent on e.g. GitHub, because if the thing I need was on GitHub I would download it.
hamilyon2
Crystallized intelligence is. I am not sure about fluid intelligence.
antisthenes
Fluid intelligence is just how quickly you acquire crystallized intelligence.
It's the first derivative.
penguin_booze
I don't know why, but I was reminded of Douglas Hofstadter's talk: Analogy is cognition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8m7lFQ3njk&t=964s.
goatlover
How well does that apply to robotics or animal intelligence? Manipulating the real world is more fundamental to human intelligence than compressing text.
ToValueFunfetti
Under the predictive coding model (and I'm sure some others), animal intelligence is also compression. The idea is that the early layers of the brain minimize how surprising incoming sensory signals are, so the later layers only have to work with truly entropic signal. But it has non-compression-based intelligence within those more abstract layers.
mjburgess
Deepseek v1 is ~670Bn which is ~1.4TB physical.
All digitized books ever written/encoded compress to a few TB. The public web is ~50TB. I think a usable zip of all english electronic text publicly available would be on O(100TB). So we're at about 1% of that in model size, and we're in a diminishing-returns area of training -- ie., going to >1% has not yielded improvements (cf. gpt4.5 vs 4o).
This is why compute spend is moving to inference time with "reasoning" models. It's likely we're close to diminshing returns on inference-time compute now too, hence agents whereby (mostly,) deterministic tools are supplementing information /capability into the system.
I think to get any more value out of this model class, we'll be looking at domain-specific specialisation beyond instruction fine-tuning.
I'd guess targeting 1TB inference-time VRAM would be a reasonable medium-term target for high quality open source models -- that's within the reach of most SMEs today. That's about 250bn params.
smokel
Simply add images and video, and these estimates start to sound like the "640 KB should be enough for everyone".
After that, make the robots explore and interact with the world by themselves, to fetch even more data.
In all seriousness, adding image and interaction data will probably be enormously useful, even for generating text.
netcan
Like both will be done. Idk what the roi is on adding video data to the text models, but it's presumably lower than text.
There are just a lot of avenues to try at this point.
llSourcell
no its not lower than text, its higher ROI than text for understanding the physics of the world, which is exactly what videos are better at than text when it comes to training data
layer8
Just a nitpick, but please don’t misuse big O notation like that. Any fixed storage amount is O(100TB).
camel-cdr
> All digitized books ever written/encoded compress to a few TB.
I tied to estimate how much data this actually is:
# annas archive stats
papers = 105714890
books = 52670695
# word count estimates
avrg_words_per_paper = 10000
avrg_words_per_book = 100000
words = (papers*avrg_words_per_paper + books*avrg_words_per_book )
# quick text of 27 million words from a few books
sample_words = 27809550
sample_bytes = 158824661
sample_bytes_comp = 28839837 # using zpaq -m5
bytes_per_word = sample_bytes/sample_words
byte_comp_ratio = sample_bytes_comp/sample_bytes
word_comp_ratio = bytes_per_word*byte_comp_ratio
print("total:", words*bytes_per_word*1e-12, "TB") # total: 30.10238345855199 TB
print("compressed:", words*word_comp_ratio*1e-12, "TB") # compressed: 5.466077036085319 TB
So uncompressed ~30 TB and compressed ~5.5 TB of data.That fits on three 2TB micro SD cards, which you could buy for a total of 750$ from SanDisk.
fouc
Maybe you're thinking of Library of Congress when you say ~50TB? Internet is definitely larger..
Aachen
Indeed, a quick lookup doesn't give many reliable-sounding sources but they're all on the order of zettabytes (tens to thousands of them), also for years before any LLM was halfway usable. One has to wonder how much of that is generated, thinking of point of my own websites where the pages are derived statistics from player highscores, or the websites that jokingly index all Bitcoin addresses and UUIDs
Perhaps the 50TB estimate is unique information without any media or so, but OP can back up where they got that number from than I can do with guesswork
account-5
> All digitized books ever written/encoded compress to a few TB. The public web is ~50TB. I think a usable zip of all english electronic text publicly available would be on O(100TB).
Where you getting these numbers from? Interested to see how that's calculated.
I read somewhere, but cannot find the source anymore, that all written text prior to this century was approx 50MB. (Might be misquoted as don't have source anymore).
TeMPOraL
> I read somewhere, but cannot find the source anymore, that all written text prior to this century was approx 50MB. (Might be misquoted as don't have source anymore).
50 MB feels too low, unless the quote meant text up until the 20th century, in which case it feels much more believable. In terms of text production and publishing, we're still riding an exponent, so a couple orders of magnitude increase between 1899 and 2025 is not surprising.
(Talking about S-curves is all the hotness these days, but I feel it's usually a way to avoid understanding what exponential growth means - if one assumes we're past the inflection point, one can wave their hands and pretend the change is linear, and continue to not understand it.)
ben_w
Even by the start of the 20th century, 50 MB is definitely far too low.
Any given English translation of Bible is by itself something like 3-5 megabytes of ASCII; the complete works of Shakespeare are about 5 megabytes; and I think (back of the envelope estimate) you'd get about the same again for what Arthur Conan Doyle wrote before 1900.
I can just about believe there might have been only ten thousand Bible-or-Shakespeare sized books (plus all the court documents, newspapers, etc. that add up to that) worldwide by 1900, but not ten.
Edit: I forgot about encyclopaedias, by 1900 the Encyclopædia Britannica was almost certainly more than 50 MB all by itself.
jerf
50MB feels like "all the 'ancient' text we have" maybe, as measured by the size of the original content and not counting copies. A quick check at Alice in Wonderland puts it at 163kB in plain text. About 300 of those gets us to 50MB. There's way more than 300 books of similar size from the 19th century. They may not all be digitized and freely available, but you can fill libraries with even existing 19th century texts, let alone what may be lost by now.
Or it may just be someone bloviating and just being wrong... I think even ancient texts could exceed that number, though perhaps not by an order of magnitude.
bravesoul2
I reckon a prolific writer could publish a million words in their career.
Most people who blog could wrote 1k words a day. That's a million in 3 years. So not crazy numbers here.
That's 5Mb. Maybe you meant 50Gb. I'd hazard 50Tb.
mjburgess
Anna's Archive full torrent is O(1PB), project gutenberg is O(1TB), many AI training torrents are reported in the O(50TB) range.
Extract just the plain text from that (+social media, etc.), remove symbols outside of a 64 symbol alphabet (6 bits) and compress. "Feels" to me around a 100TB max for absolutely everything.
Either way, full-fat LLMs are operating at 1-10% of this scale, depending how you want to estimate it.
If you run a more aggressive filter on that 100TB, eg., for a more semantic dedup, there's a plausible argument for "information" in english texts available being ~10TB -- then we're running close to 20% of that in LLMs.
If we take LLMs to just be that "semantic compression algorithm", and supposing the maximum useful size of an LLM is 2TB, then you could run the argument that everything "salient" ever written is <10TB.
Taking LLMs to be running at close-to 50% "everything useful" rather than 1% would be a explanation of why training has capped out.
I think the issue is at least as much to do with what we're using LLMs for -- ie., instruction fine-tuning requires some more general (proxy/quasi-) semantic structures in LLMs and I think you only need O(1%) of "everything ever written" to capture these. So it wouldnt really matter how much more we added, instruction-following LLMs don't really need it.
kmm
Perhaps that's meant to be 50GB (and that still seems like a serious underestimation)? Just the Bible is already 5MB.
_Algernon_
English Wikipedia without media alone is ~24 GB compressed.
WesolyKubeczek
Maybe prior to the prior century, and even then I smell a lot of bullshit. I mean, just look at the Project Gutenberg. Even plaintext only, even compressed.
bravesoul2
Even Shakespeare alone needs 4 floppy disks.
rain1
This is kind of related to the jack morris post https://blog.jxmo.io/p/there-are-no-new-ideas-in-ai-only he discusses how the big leaps in LLMs have mostly come - not so much from new training methods or arch. changes as such - but the ability of new archs. to ingest more data.
andrepd
> 50TB
There's no way the entire Web fits in 400$ worth of hard drives.
flir
Nah, Common Crawl puts on 250TB a month.
Maybe text only, though...
AlienRobot
Text is small.
charcircuit
>The public web is ~50TB
Did you mean to type EB?
gosub100
Only if you included all images and video
kamranjon
This is somehow missing the Gemma and Gemini series of models from Google. I also think that not mentioning the T5 series of models is strange from a historical perspective because they sort of pioneered many of the concepts in transfer learning and kinda kicked off quite a bit of interest in this space.
rain1
The Gemma models are too small to be included in this list.
You're right the T5 stuff is very important historically but they're below 11B and I don't have much to say about them. Definitely a very interesting and important set of models though.
tantalor
> too small
Eh?
* Gemma 1 (2024): 2B, 7B
* Gemma 2 (2024): 2B, 9B, 27B
* Gemma 3 (2025): 1B, 4B, 12B, 27B
This is the same range as some Llama models which you do mention.
> important historically
Aren't you trying to give a historical perspective? What's the point of this?
kamranjon
Since you included GPT-2, everything from Google including T5 would qualify for the list I would think.
stared
If you want it visually, here's a chart of total parameters as a function of year: https://app.charts.quesma.com/s/rmyk38
rain1
I think that one thing that this chart makes visually very clear is the point I about GPT-3 being such a huge leap, and there being a long gap before anybody was able to match it.
rain1
This is really awesome. Thank you for creating that. I included a screenshot and link to the chart with credit to you in a comment to my post.
stared
I am happy you like it!
If you like darker color scheme, here it is:
https://app.charts.quesma.com/s/f07qji
And active vs total:
OtherShrezzing
>None of this document was not written by AI
I think in these scenarios, articles should include the prompt and generating model.
rain1
I have corrected that. It was supposed to say "None of this document was written by AI."
Thank you for spotting the error.
OtherShrezzing
Understood, thanks for updating it!
kylecazar
I thought this was an accidental double negative by the author -- trying to declare they wrote it themselves.
There are some signs it's written by possibly a non-native speaker.
WesolyKubeczek
I don’t think the author knows that double negatives in English in a sentence like this cancel, not reinforce, each other.
oc1
You are absolutely right! The AI slop is getting out of control.
lukeschlather
This is a really nice writeup.
That said, there's an unstated assumption here that these truly large language models are the most interesting thing. The big players have been somewhat quiet but my impression from the outside is that OpenAI let a little bit leak with their behavior. They built an even larger model and it turned out to be disappointing so they quietly discontinued it. The most powerful frontier reasoning models may actually be smaller than the largest publicly available models.
fossa1
It’s ironic: for years the open-source community was trying to match GPT-3 (175B dense) with 30B–70B models + RLHF + synthetic data—and the performance gap persisted.
Turns out, size really did matter, at least at the base model level. Only with the release of truly massive dense (405B) or high-activation MoE models (DeepSeek V3, DBRX, etc) did we start seeing GPT-4-level reasoning emerge outside closed labs.
simonw
> There were projects to try to match it, but generally they operated by fine tuning things like small (70B) llama models on a bunch of GPT-3 generated texts (synthetic data - which can result in degeneration when AI outputs are fed back into AI training inputs).
That parenthetical doesn't quite work for me.
If synthetic data always degraded performance, AI labs wouldn't use synthetic data. They use it because it helps them train better models.
There's a paper that shows that if you very deliberately train a model in its own output in a loop you can get worse performance. That's not what AI labs using synthetic data actually do.
That paper gets a lot of attention because the schadenfreude of models destroying themselves through eating their own tails is irresistible.
rybosome
Agreed, especially when in this context of training a smaller model on a larger model’s outputs. Distillation is generally accepted as an effective technique.
This is exactly what I did in a previous role, fine-tuning Llama and Mistral models on a mix of human and GPT-4 data for a domain-specific task. Adding (good) synthetic data definitely increased the output quality for our tasks.
rain1
Yes but just purely in terms of entropy, you can't make a model better than GPT-4 by training it on GPT-4 outputs. The limit you would converge towards is GPT-4.
simonw
A better way to think about synthetic data is to consider code. With code you can have an LLM generate code with tests, then confirm that the code compiles and the tests pass. Now you have semi-verified new code you can add to your training data, and training on that will help you get better results for code even though it was generated by a "less good" LLM.
null
dale_glass
How big are those in terms of size on disk and VRAM size?
Something like 1.61B just doesn't mean much to me since I don't know much about the guts of LLMs. But I'm curious about how that translates to computer hardware -- what specs would I need to run these? What could I run now, what would require spending some money, and what I might hope to be able to run in a decade?
ethan_smith
As a rule of thumb, each billion parameters requires about 4GB of VRAM in FP16 (2 bytes per parameter), so a 7B model needs ~28GB, 70B needs ~280GB, while the 405B models need ~1.6TB of VRAM - though quantization can reduce this by 2-4x (4-bit models use only ~0.5GB per billion parameters).
mjburgess
At 1byte/param that's 1.6GB (f8), at 2 bytes (f16) that's 2.3GB -- but there's other space costs beyond loading the parameters for the GPU. So a rule of thumb is ~4x parameter count. So round up, 2B -> 2*4 = 8GB VRAM
loudmax
Most of these models have been trained using 16-bit weights. So a 1 billion parameter model takes up 2 gigabytes.
In practice, models can be quantized to smaller weights for inference. Usually, the performance loss going from 16 bit weights to 8 bit weights is very minor, so a 1 billion parameter model can take 1 gigabyte. Thinking about these models in terms of 8-bit quantized weights has the added benefit of making the math really easy. A 20B model needs 20G of memory. Simple.
Of course, models can be quantized down even further, at greater cost of inference quality. Depending on what you're doing, 5-bit weights or even lower might be perfectly acceptable. There's some indication that models that have been trained on lower bit weights might perform better than larger models that have been quantized down. For example, a model that was trained using 4-bit weights might perform better than a model that was trained at 16 bits, then quantized down to 4 bits.
When running models, a lot of the performance bottleneck is memory bandwidth. This is why LLM enthusiasts are looking for GPUs with the most possible VRAM. You computer might have 128G of RAM, but your GPU's access to that memory is so constrained by bandwidth that you might as well run the model on your CPU. Running a model on the CPU can be done, it's just much slower because the computation is so parallel.
Today's higher end consumer grade GPUs have up to 24G of dedicated VRAM (an Nvidia RTX 5090 has 32G of VRAM and they're like $2k). The dedicated VRAM on a GPU has a memory bandwidth of about 1 Tb/s. Apple's M-series of ARM-based CPU's have 512 Gb/s of bandwidth, and they're one of the most popular ways of being able to run larger LLMs on consumer hardware. AMD's new "Strix Halo" CPU+GPU chips have up to 128G of unified memory, with a memory bandwidth of about 256 Gb/s.
Reddit's r/LocalLLaMA is a reasonable place to look to see what people are doing with consumer grade hardware. Of course, some of what they're doing is bonkers so don't take everything you see there as a guide.
And as far as a decade from now, who knows. Currently, the top silicon fabs of TSMC, Samsung, and Intel are all working flat-out to meet the GPU demand from hyperscalers rolling out capacity (Microsoft Azure, AWS, Google, etc). Silicon chip manufacturing has traditionally followed a boom/bust cycle. But with geopolitical tensions, global trade barriers, AI-driven advances, and whatever other black swan events, what the next few years will look like is anyone's guess.
null
angusturner
I wish people would stop parroting the view that LLMs are lossy compression.
There is kind of a vague sense in which this metaphor holds, but there is a much more interesting and rigorous fact about LLMs which is that they are also _lossless_ compression algorithms.
There are at least two senses in which this is true:
1. You can use an LLM to losslessly compress any piece of text at a cost that approaches the log-likelihood of that text under the model, using arithmetic coding. A sender and receiver both need a copy of the LLM weights.
2. You can use an LLM plus SGD (I.e the training code) as an lossless compression algorithm, where the communication cost is area under the training curve (and the model weights don’t count towards description length!) see: Jack Rae “compression for AGI”
actionfromafar
Re 1 - classical compression is also extremely effective if both sender and receiver have access to the same huge dictionary.
1vuio0pswjnm7
1. "raw text continuation engine"
https://gist.github.com/rain-1/cf0419958250d15893d8873682492...
2. "superintelligence"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence
"Meta is uniquely positioned to deliver superintelligence to the world."
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/06/30/mark-zuckerberg-creating-met...
Is there any difference between 1 and 2
Yes. One is purely hypothetical
unwind
Meta: The inclusion of the current year ("(2025)") in the title is strange, even though it's in the actual title of the linked-to post, repeating it here makes me look around for the time machine controls.
Less a technical comment and more just a mind-blown comment, but I still can’t get over just how much data is compressed into and available in these downloadable models. Yesterday I was on a plane with no WiFi, but had gemma3:12b downloaded through Ollama. Was playing around with it and showing my kids, and we fired history questions at it, questions about recent video games, and some animal fact questions. It wasn’t perfect, but holy cow the breadth of information that is embedded in an 8.1 GB file is incredible! Lossy, sure, but a pretty amazing way of compressing all of human knowledge into something incredibly contained.