She Got a Permit for Her Chickens. Now the City Is Fining Her $80k
57 comments
·June 30, 2025Aurornis
cynicalpeace
> All power goes to those who object.
I see this all the time in the private sector where if just 1 person in a team objects to a decision, the team has to jump thru many hoops to make something barely reasonable happen
What happened to "just deal with it?"
I think it's viewed that those words are too cruel, or not nice. But actually, when you give up those words, you end up with a society far more cruel and not nice.
mattigames
With a few cameras it's probably possible to automatically determine how noisy are people in any given neighborhood, "More than 50% of the people here spend more than 80% of their day at home", maybe there should be a standard measure for it, NIMBYness-meter.
tptacek
Really hard to over-emphasize just how small Douglas MI is; it's about 1,000 people total. An afternoon's walking distance down the beach from where they shot the ending of Road to Perdition, though.
I don't know how much there is to learn from batty ordinances in tiny rural towns (western Michigan is a special kind of rural; there's some farming, but the biggest industry is hospitality for Chicagoans driving up in the summer).
crooked-v
This is like a microcosm of all the NIMBY crap that's slowed housing construction to a crawl in every major US city. Neighbors get to object to things already explicitly allowed by law, a total lack of objective standards, ex post facto changes of standards...
silisili
Chickens are so much nicer to have around than almost any other pet. They won't bark all night, or maul a child, or leave dead birds on your doorstep. Such a weird thing to get mad about.
> Sarkisian had spent $23,000 building a chicken coop and a privacy fence to shield the chickens from view
I'd like to get a look at all that, it seems extremely excessive for 6 hens. I think I spent just over 1k total for 18!
Nothing wrong with that, sounds like she either got took, or built them quite the palace.
VladVladikoff
The dogs in my neighbourhood are much louder than my chickens. Literally measured this with a decibel meter. I can hear the neighbours dog barking while I’m in my bed. I can’t hear my chickens.
bityard
> They won't bark all night, or maul a child,
I think you misunderstand, these are not things pets do, these are things that wild, abused and/or neglected animals do.
elcritch
> Even if the city had followed the proper timing protocols for neighbor objections, the lawsuit notes that the ordinance's wording still inherently runs afoul of due process rights. That's because the ordinance provides no clear standard, no ability for Sarkisian to appeal or contest her neighbor's complaint, and no right to a hearing. According to PLF's complaint, this effectively gives her neighbor "a standardless and unreviewable veto over Kathy's use of her own property."
That’s a great way to frame the argument against Karens and NIMBYs general attitude. What right do they have to an unreviewable veto? They should at least have to prove something a public nuisance or or source of harm.
resist_futility
What do people have against chickens? Roosters should not be allowed but hens aren't loud or particularly smelly at all. Dogs can be a much bigger nuisance.
metaphor
> Roosters should not be allowed
Ironically, the article depicts the homeowner holding a rooster; I can see why a neighbor would be pissed.
Backyard hens are thing in my city (dancing around HOA is another issue altogether), but our ordinance makes it abundantly clear that roosters are not permitted.
AlotOfReading
A former neighbor had chickens and didn't keep their coop properly secured. Coincidentally, the neighborhood raccoons were also the fattest, roundest animals I've ever seen.
cynicalpeace
Nature has a way of keeping things in check.
Government, not so much.
cynicalpeace
"roosters should not be allowed"
Why? We have a rooster. He protects the hens. He crows in the morning, just like dogs bark, and F-250s rev past the neighborhood road. Where do you think chickens come from in the first place?
It's just another small step to say "hens should not be allowed"
dismantlethesun
Protects them from what may I ask? I live in a city where chickens are permitted, and my neighbors chickens are all roaming the streets free-range, and their greatest danger is cars which roosters can't stop.
bitmasher9
We should be encouraging people to produce food, not severely punishing someone for it. Do we need a campaign for a right to basic agriculture? This reminds me a lot of the right to repair, in that it feels like a violation of how we expect to be able to use our property.
BLKNSLVR
I read something recently, I think it was on HN or linked to from discussion, about something like the opposite. And it was argued something like national security over the price effect it could have on agriculture across state or national borders. Likely ridiculous, but may have had some semi-rationalising nuance. I would have thought the US, of all places, wouldn't be placing such restrictions on liberty.
I might be cross-linking a couple of different things though, so hold back that outrage.
But, yes, I agree. It would also give more people an understanding of what real (non-mass-produced, heirloom) fruits and vegetables taste like. And eggs (my better half regularly buys eggs from a student at the school, the same student also, every morning, tends to the school's vegetable garden with autistic dedication and attention). Meat is a bit more difficult.
Hands in the dirt is good for mental health too.
trollbridge
We do. Some parts of Maine have passed “right to raise food” laws.
BLKNSLVR
What was not allowed prior to these "right to raise food" laws?
Is it only about animals? Was there any restriction on vege patches?
protocolture
Reminds me of my dads town. The town planner from the regional council came through to ping him on having a gravel driveway, and to cause problems with his heritage listed property having humans living in it. While he was in town he found someone with 1 more chicken than the regional council allows (7 when they decided on 6). Never mind its a town of 40 people that's effectively a bunch of farmhouses placed together on the same stretch of highway.
onionisafruit
> Sarkisian had spent $23,000 building a chicken coop and a privacy fence
That’s for six chickens. They must lay golden eggs for that to pay off.
zippyman55
My first house was in a low cost area and I loved waking up to an illegal rooster crowing! I am sure dogs are way worse.
cynicalpeace
I just built a chicken coop (nice building something with my hands) and I just put 7 chickens in there.
No asking for permission with the town because of course they'll have something bureaucratic and dumb thing to say.
We're on good terms with all the neighbors, and just mentioned the chickens in passing. Everyone was excited to get eggs. It was a neighborly project.
We live in small town Maine, where I guess we do things differently than in Michigan.
null
> the lawsuit notes that the ordinance's wording still inherently runs afoul of due process rights. That's because the ordinance provides no clear standard, no ability for Sarkisian to appeal or contest her neighbor's complaint, and no right to a hearing. According to PLF's complaint, this effectively gives her neighbor "a standardless and unreviewable veto over Kathy's use of her own property."
NIMBY policy in a nutshell: All power goes to those who object.
It's strange that the city made the mistake of issuing the permit but is now trying to retroactively un-permit the chickens because one person complained.
Stories like this and even the more casual HOA stories make me glad I live in an area where most families are too busy with their lives to be nit picking minutia in their neighbors' yards.