Philadelphia Transit System Votes to Cut Service by 45%, Hike Fares
60 comments
·June 26, 2025dmschulman
underyx
Uneducated question, seems like Philadelphia has around $5B of revenue a year, and the transit deficit is ~$200M. I understand the city has to provide services and a lot of the revenue will be restricted as to what it can be allocated to. But with these orders of magnitude, why is the default expectation not for cities to fund their own transit with city tax revenue?
sylens
Much of the service being cut is the regional rail that primarily services the collar counties. Philadelphia will lose bus routes but the core of their transit will survive.
It’s Bucks, Montgomery, and Delaware Counties that will suffer the most from this.
underyx
Well that just confuses me more, if the losses are spread out across all these counties each with their own revenue, why isn't that the default place where money is allocated from?
eschulz
Isn't it the norm for elected officials to want to keep tax dollars in their district? This Dush guy might be misguided somehow in the larger scheme of things, but wouldn't he just be reflecting his constituents' desire to directly benefit from the taxes they pay?
bryanlarsen
The most affected counties (Bucks, Montgomery, and Delaware) have average incomes twice that of the counties Dush represents (Crawford, Erie, Washington, Greene).
So Dush's voters aren't paying much in the way of taxes.
tantalor
Much more background for the Pittsburgh Regional Transit (PRT) funding crisis here:
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runako
SEPTA's total budget for last year was $2.6 billion against a metro population of 6.2 million.
Seems like an obvious place to generate returns for the population given a total annual cost of ~$400 per resident in the metro area. I doubt SEPTA could do this, but it also sort of implies that you could add a ~$100/mo tax to all households in the area and provide the service free at the point of use, which might make it cheaper to operate.
starmftronajoll
The last two paragraphs provide relevant context (as is often the case in news articles), which makes clear that this is another step in a series of political maneuvers, so wait and see how this pans out. The vote means service is "set to" be cut, but in the immediate term, it's SEPTA pulling a lever to put pressure on state lawmakers who are already negotiating a financial package for transit.
> “This is a vote none of us wanted to take,” SEPTA Board Chair Kenneth Lawrence Jr. said. “To be clear, this does not have to happen — if state lawmakers can reach an agreement to deliver sufficient, new funding for public transit.”
> Earlier this year, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro proposed a $300 million mass transit bill to help fund the system that was passed by the state House of Representatives on June 17. Negotiations on the bill are still underway.
ecshafer
I took SEPTA for work for 5 years, and its overall a pretty good system. But SEPTA is in my view not hampered by anything more than Philadelphia's city government. There are arguments around the state not supporting SEPTA more. However until Philadelphia gets rid of their asinine resident and worker tax, and business REVENUE taxes which push middle class and wealthier residents, workers and companies to the suburbs. If more businesses are in the city, then there can be more efficient trains. But most of the big businesses are in KOP, Blue Bell, Malvern, etc.
When a company can at any point leave the city, and get a 2% revenue tax break, and give all of their workers a 4% raise, its stupid of them not to. Only Universities, Hospitals, Lawyers and non-profits are actually in the city (Or a few big companies that have massive tax breaks and hand outs).
This policy pushing businesses to the suburbs and incentivizing the suburbs means people are just going to drive from Lower Merion to Blue Bell or whatever, and not take the train to work.
9283409232
Alan Fisher has a good video on this and why Septa is actually one of the most efficient transit agencies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTo82C4JIWo
yodon
I guess it's nice to occasionally hear that California isn't the only hopelessly messed up state.
kevingadd
> Commuters in the Philadelphia area are now set to lose access to 50 bus routes, 66 rail stations, five regional rail lines and Sports Express trains. Service will be cut by 20% starting August 24, with a further 25% reduction on January 1, 2026. In September, a full hiring freeze will go into effect and fares will rise to $2.90 from $2.50.
> The downsizing is a stark illustration of the fiscal reckoning that mass transit systems in some of the nation’s major cities are facing as they deal with a collective $6 billion funding shortfall. Agencies in Chicago, Boston and San Francisco have been scrambling to raise funds for their operations before the start of the next fiscal year on July 1.
It does seem right that the article refers to a "death spiral" here. Once transit becomes insufficient to get from place to place you stop using it and pivot to cars, and then there's even less justification for funding the transit system.
I wonder if American society will ever come up with a solution for this since the problem is so widespread. More cars on the road doesn't seem sustainable, traffic is already really bad in many places.
t-writescode
Living without a car is much easier when the places that are lived are less car-focused. Walkability would also improve overall health because people would be burning 500-1000 more calories a day just from moving about more regularly, and it could help the obesity epidemic.
That requires transitioning from the suburb layout style we use to increase places that can be gone that are walkable, and that requires more car-hostile, human-safe places… the transitional stages are very, very unpleasant for all involved, like growing one’s hair out and struggling until you can get your hair in a ponytail or braids.
JohnBooty
That requires transitioning from the suburb layout style we use
Even if you could -- like if you could just fire up a time machine and move stuff around like a Sim City hacked save game editor -- you'd have a very large condensed urban area (comparable to NYC proper) that would still require robust public transport.
You want to link adjacent population/economic centers with affordable transportation.
PaulHoule
A "pivot to cars" might be feasible in a small city but in a larger city there are just so many cars you can handle. Robert Moses's plans to make it easy to drive from Queens to New Jersey would have required bulldozing a lot of midtown.
In a place like Tompkins County which has good bus service threatened by management problems you could have a "death spiral" that only affects transit but for Philly, NYC or Washington it would be a "death spiral" for the whole city.
philip1209
I strongly support public transportation (specifically, rail), but:
> I wonder if American society will ever come up with a solution for this since the problem is so widespread.
I think the answer will be something having to do with self-driving cars.
If you look at companies like Glydways, they're starting to provide transit-like services to governments.
The reason I think self-driving cars will perform better in the USA is that it is high in OpEx, but low in CapEx, which I think translates better to how Americans fund things (immediate results, no big investment that can unravel)
krashidov
The "self driving cars" are the future prediction is probably correct, but it makes me so very sad. A self driving centric city is still a car centric city, and it's not really a city. It's just a sprawling space with moving adult strollers.
The optimist in me says there will be less parking which opens up land for housing and 3rd spaces. I also think that the self driving cars will eventually create self driving private bus lanes. And then cities will probably realize they can just build a permanent line there.
One interesting thought experiment to do: what happens if private car ownership went away tomorrow and everyone took Waymos instead? Let's assume there's enough waymos to handle the load. It would be mayhem. There would be waymo depots everywhere and there would be an outbound traffic spike from the depots on their way to pick people up in the morning. It's simply not scalable unless you shared routes. So I don't think car ownership is going away. I think people will own waymos. At that point you might as well buy 5 waymos so that each kid can be "independent."
I'm optimistic, but the future of the American city is grim (with some outliers who are embracing urbanism)
philip1209
I agree, but based on my daily encounters with Waymos in San Francisco, they leave me far more optimistic than human drivers. They yield to people in crosswalks, they don't honk and create unnecessary noise because they're having an emotional reaction to something they can't control (like a person jaywalking). They don't get drunk and smash into things.
And biggest of all, they don't take up a ton of public space for parking. Yes, they do require depots, but they don't require the continued existence of things like minimum parking ratio laws.
runako
Self-driving cars only look like high OpEx/low CapEx because there are a trivial number of them on the roads. At scale, they require vast investment in road infrastructure to manage congestion. Adding many more vehicles to roads that are already congested will not work.
So in practice, they will be high OpEx/high CapEx. Which makes sense in a country fully captured by Capital.
Unless autonomous cars are accompanied by step-function changes in the ability to build new roads cheaply, they are not the answer.
philip1209
America has and likes roads, so the marginal capex here is low.
Half of the country lives in suburbs and that's not going to change overnight. So roads are an unfortunate reality of keeping America functional.
Self-driving cars should enable higher throughput on existing roads, though, because they don't gawk at accidents and potentially could drive in denser formations with less separation.
actionfromafar
Just thinking out loud here, but the Third World also works like that. (High OpEx, low CapEx.)
philip1209
America makes more sense if you think of it as a developing country that happens to be rich.
AirMax98
Death spiral is unfortunately a very correct term for this. I really can't express how different the conditions of public transit in SF and Philly are. Riding the L in Philly is unbelievably sketchy at night (passes through K&A) and I would not ride it alone if I were a woman. This is one of the main intra-city commuter rail lines in Philly. At this point, there are so few viable options that I can't really recommend public transit in Philly to anyone. Compare that to SF, where I literally take public transit everywhere, every day.
bobajeff
The only solution to traffic I can see happening here realistically is a sudden dramatic increase to gas prices.
As for public transit I can't imagine a solution. It probably won't ever be solved and thinking about such things will probably be very far from everyone's minds if the gas thing happens.
I know it's not as futuristic as self driving cars or VR living but that's my honest assessment.
IncreasePosts
Doesn't that get balanced by the fact that it will take forever to get places in cars, if everyone starts using them instead of public transit?
5555624
Maybe in New York City, during rush hour, it takes longer to get somewhere by car than it does using public transportation (I don't know); but, that's usually not the case. When I lived in Arlington, VA with regional and county buses, as well as a subway, waling and public transportation took over an hour to get to work in Washington, D.C. By car, it was maybe 20 minutes.(I biked to work, which took longer than driving, since I had to take a less direct route.)
Now, I work from home and I'm a 20 minute drive from the office; but, public transportation is a two-hour trip, one way. (Either 1:55 or 2:05, depending on the bus.)
dylan604
I honestly do not think I've ever heard someone say that taking mass transpo is faster. Even if it does take "forever" in a car, people do not mind sitting in their car "forever" compared to sitting with strangers "forever"
tikkabhuna
Obviously a very different view, but public transport in London (UK) is very much seen as faster than driving. The only reason someone would choose to drive is if they needed to transport something difficult to take on public transport.
jobs_throwaway
You definitely hear this regularly discussed in NYC, where for many corridors transit is dramatically faster than driving.
t-writescode
In Seattle proper and anywhere its transit is good, transit and walking are definitely preferable to cars.
AnimalMuppet
It's called "rapid transit". That's exactly what the "rapid" part means - faster than a car.
There are very few of these in the US. Chicago El, BART, but I'm unsure if there are any others.
jedimastert
The solution is to get past the idea that public transit needs to be profitable, along with any other public or government service. The idea is just asinine.
chairmansteve
Yes. Very few profitable roads.
autobodie
Not true. In the early 20th century, the American automobile industry fought aggressively to divert public funding away from public transit and towards building roads, precisely because it increased their profit margins.
jsbisviewtiful
The US's obsession with profit via public service -and everything else- is asinine and embarrassing.
outside1234
Especially since we don't make any assumption that roads are profitable. It is just insane. Cars can lose as much money as it takes but god forbid a train lose 5%.
mempko
It's not always sunny in Philadelphia.
Pennsylvania could be so much more for its residents but we're a state bogged down politically by rural districts that do everything within their power to kneecap the our two major economic hubs/cities: Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
Our governor backs mass transit, but state reps will not budge on funding as SEPTA only services Philadelphia and the counties immediately adjacent. One politician, Cris Dush who represents the 25th district in the upper most part of the state, released a letter to concerned citizens and characterized the issue as a preferrence for keeping tax dollars in his own district as there's no mass transit available to his constituents. In his view, he's not willing to pay for other people to be "chaffered" around on public transit: http://crossingbroad.com/news/trending/pennsylvania-state-se...
Until Pennsylvania's statehouse can overcome their misguided idea of what it means to levy and collect taxes, PA will continue to lag behind other states in the northeast in terms of basic services and economic competitiveness.