AI Isn't Magic, It's Maths
57 comments
·June 11, 2025Workaccount2
112233
Not only that, I have observed people reversing the flow and claiming everything is AI because it uses similar maths. E.g. I saw a guy with "AI degree" argue at lenght that weather forecast models are AI because the numerical solver works similarly to the gradient descent.
This may seem inconsequential and pretentious at first, but it feels like a "land grab" by the AI-adjacent people, trying to claim authority over anything that numerically minimizes differetiable function value.
perching_aix
I largely agree, and upon reading this article is sadly also in that camp of applying this perspective to be dismissive.
However, I find it incredibly valuable generally to know things aren't magic, and that there's a method to the madness.
For example, I had a bit of a spat with a colleague who was 100% certain that AI models are not only unreliable because from a human perspective, insignificant changes to their inputs can cause significant changes to their outputs, but because, in their idea, they were actually random, in the nondeterministic sense. That I was speaking in hypotheticals when I took an issue with this, as he recalled my beliefs about superdeterminism, and inferred that "yeah if you know where every atom is in your processor and the state they're in, then sure, maybe they're deterministic, but that's not a useful definition of deterministic".
Me "knowing" that they're not only not any more special than any other program, but that it's just a bunch of matrix math, provided me with the confidence and resiliency necessary to reason my colleague out of his position, including busting out a local model to demonstrate the reproducibility of model interactions first hand, that he was then able to replicate on his end on a completely different hardware. Even learned a bit about the "magic" involved myself along the way (that different versions of ollama may give different results, although not necessarily).
captn3m0
I also had to argue with a lawyer on the same point - he held a firm belief that “Modern GenAI systems” are different from older ML systems in that they are non-deterministic and random. And that this inherent randomness is what makes them both unexplainable (you can’t guarantee what it would type) and useful (they can be creative).
perching_aix
I honestly find this kinda stuff more terrifying than the models themselves.
pxc
> [The] article is sadly also in that camp of applying this perspective to be dismissive.
TFA literally and unironically includes such phrases as "AI is awesome".
It characterizes AI as "useful", "impressive" and capable of "genuine technological marvels".
In what sense is the article dismissive? What, exactly, is it dismissive of?
perching_aix
> TFA literally and unironically includes such phrases as "AI is awesome". It characterizes AI as "useful", "impressive" and capable of "genuine technological marvels".
This does not contradict what I said.
> In what sense is the article dismissive? What, exactly, is it dismissive of?
Consider the following direct quotes:
> It’s like having the world’s most educated parrot: it has heard everything, and now it can mimic a convincing answer.
or
> they generate responses using the same principle: predicting likely answers from huge amounts of training text. They don’t understand the request like a human would; they just know statistically which words tend to follow which. The result can be very useful and surprisingly coherent, but it’s coming from calculation, not comprehension
I believe these examples are self-evidently dismissive, but to further put it into words, the article - ironically - rides on the idea that there's more to understanding then just pattern recognition at a large scale, something mystical and magical, something beyond the frameworks of mathematics and computing, and thus these models are no true scotsmans. I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea; I find the sheer capability of higher level semantic information extraction and manipulation to be already a clear and undeniable evidence of an understanding. This is one thing the article is dismissive of (in my view).
They even put it into words:
> As impressive as the output is, there’s no mystical intelligence at play – just a lot of number crunching and clever programming.
Implying that real intelligence is mystical, not even just in the epistemological but in the ontological sense, too.
> But here at Zero Fluff, we don’t do magic – we do reality.
Please.
It also blatantly contradicts very easily accessible information on how a typical modern LLM works; no, they are not just spouting off a likely series of words (or tokens) in order, as if they were reciting from somewhere. This is also a common lie that this article just propagates further. If that's really how they worked, they'd be even less useful than they presently are. This is another thing the article is dismissive of (in my view).
xigoi
Last time I checked, modern LLMs could give you a different answer for the same sequence of prompts each time. Did that change?
perching_aix
They can, but won't necessarily. If you use a managed service, they likely will, due to batched inference. Otherwise, it's simply a matter of configuring the seed to a fixed value and the temperature to 0.
At least that's what I did, and then as long as the prompts were exactly the same, the responses remained exactly the same too. Tested with a quantized gemma3 using ollama, I'd say that's modern enough (barely a month or so old). Maybe lowering the temp is not even necessary as long as you keep the seed stickied, didn't test that.
ninetyninenine
Yeah your brain is also maths and probability.
It’s called mathematical modeling and anything we understand in the universe can be modeled. If we don’t understand something we feel a model should exist we just don’t know it yet.
AI we don’t have a model. Like we have a model for atoms and we know the human brain is made of atoms so in that sense the brain can be modeled but we don’t have a high level model that can explain things in a way we understand.
It’s the same with AI. We understand it from the perspective of prediction and best fit curve at the lowest level but we don’t fully understand what’s going on at a higher level.
ncarlson
> AI we don’t have a model.
So, some engineers just stumbled upon LLMs and said, "Holy smokes, we've created something impressive, but we really can't explain how this stuff works!"
We built these things. Piece by piece. If you don't understand the state-of-the-art architectures, I don't blame you. Neither do I. It's exhausting trying to keep up. But these technologies, by and large, are understood by the engineers that created them.
Workaccount2
Models are grown, not built. The ruleset is engineered, the training framework built, but the model itself that grows through training is incredibly dense complexity.
ninetyninenine
Put it this way Carlson. If you were building LLMs if you understood machine learning if you were one of these engineers who work at open ai, you would agree with me.
The fact that you don’t agree indicates you literally don’t get it. It also indicates you aren’t in any way an engineer who works on AI, because what I am talking about here is an unequivocal and universally held viewpoint held by literally the people who build these things.
ijidak
Not true. How the higher level thought is occurring continues to be a mystery.
This is an emergent behavior that wasn’t predicted prior to the first breakthroughs which were intended for translation, not for this type of higher level reasoning.
Put it this way, if we truly understood how LLMs think perfectly we could predict the maximum number of parameters that would achieve peak intelligence and go straight to that number.
Just as we now know exactly the boundaries of mass density that yield a black hole, etc.
The fact that we don’t know when scaling will cease to yield new levels of reasoning means we don’t have a precise understanding of how the parameters are yielding higher levels of intelligence.
We’re just building larger and seeing what happens.
stevenhuang
> But these technologies, by and large, are understood by the engineers that created them.
Simply incorrect. Look into the field of AI interpretability. The learned weights are black boxes, we don't know what goes on inside them.
ninetyninenine
The engineers who built these things in actuality don’t understand how it works. Literally. In fact you can ask them and they say this readily. I believe the CEO of anthropic is quoted as saying this.
If they did understand LLMs why do they have so much trouble explaining why an LLM produced certain output? Why can’t they fully control an LLM?
These are algorithms running on computers which are deterministic machines that in theory we have total and absolute control over. The fact that we can’t control something running on this type of machine points to the sheer complexity and lack of understanding of the thing we are trying to run.
computerthings
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smohare
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ncarlson
There's a LOT of pushback against the idea that AI is not magic. Imagine if there was a narrative that said, "[compilers|kernels|web browsers] are magic. Even though we have the source code, we don't really know what's going on under the hood."
That's not my problem. That's your problem.
112233
How is this narrative different from the way cryptographic hash functions are thought of? We have the source code, but we cannot understand how to reverse the function. The way modern world functions depends on that assumption.
xigoi
The difference is that neural networks are uninterpretable. You may understand how LLMs in general work, but you can pretty much never know what the individual weights in a given model do.
mrbungie
AI is magic, at times, when is convenient, and it is also extremely scientific and mathy, at times, when it is convenient. Don't you dare doubt those thoughts at the wrong time though.
Just classic hype.
lucaslazarus
On a tangentially-related note: does anyone have a good intuition for why ChatGPT-generated images (like the one in this piece) are getting increasingly yellow? I often see explanations attributing this to a feedback loop in training data but I don't see why that would persist for so long and not be corrected at generation time.
minimaxir
They aren't getting increasingly yellow (I don't think the base model has been updated since the release of GPT-4o Image Generation), but the fact that they are always so yellow is bizarre and I am still shocked OpenAI shipped it knowing that effect exists, especially since it has the practical effect of instantly being able to clock it as an AI image generation.
Generally when training image encoders/decoders, the input images are normalized so some base commonality is possible (when playing around with Flux Kontext image-to-image I've noticed subtle adjustments in image temperature), but the fact that it's piss yellow is baffling. The autoregressive nature of the generation would not explain it either.
Workaccount2
Perhaps they do it on purpose to give the images a characteristic look.
null
4b11b4
You're just mapping from distribution to distribution
- one of my professors
esafak
The entirety of machine learning fits into the "just" part.
hackinthebochs
LLMs are modelling the world, not just "predicting the next token". They are not akin to "stochastic parrots". Some examples here[1][2][3]. Anyone claiming otherwise at this point is not arguing in good faith. There are so many interesting things to say about LLMs, yet somehow the conversation about them is stuck in 2021.
[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.15943
[2] https://x.com/OwainEvans_UK/status/1894436637054214509
[3] https://www.anthropic.com/research/tracing-thoughts-language...
minimaxir
LLMs are still trained to predict the next token: gradient descent just inevitably converges on building a world model as the best way to do it.
Masked language modeling and its need to understand inputs both forwards and backwards is a more intuitive way for having a model learn a representation of the world, but causal language modeling goes brrrrrrrr.
ninetyninenine
In theory one can make a token predictor virtually indistinguishable from a human. In fact… I myself am a best token predictor.
I and all humans fit the definition of what a best token predictor is. Think about it.
tracerbulletx
Yeah, the brain obviously has types of circuits and networks that are doing things llms don't do, they have timing, and rhythm, and extremely complex feedback loops, there's no justification to call llms sentient. But all the people trying to say they're categorically different are wrong. Brains process sequential electrical signals from the senses, and send sequential signals to the muscles. That's it. The fact that modern neural networks can trivially shift modes from audio, language, image, video, 3d or any other symbolic representation is obviously a significant development and something significant has happened in our understanding of intelligence.
blahburn
Yeah, but it’s kinda magic
ncarlson
A lot of things are magic when you don't understand the underlying principles of operation.
senectus1
Maths is magic. Its the cheat source code to this universe.
israrkhan
A computer (or a phone) is not magic, its just billions of transistors.
or perhaps we can further simplify and call it just sand?
or maybe atoms?
Man, people in the "it's just maths and probably" camp are in for a world of hurt when they learn that everything is just maths and probability.
The observation that LLMs are just doing math gets you nowhere, everything is just doing math.