Apple has announced its final version of macOS for Intel
217 comments
·June 10, 2025flohofwoe
grishka
> I'm actually looking forward to a 3D-API that can fully focus on a single GPU architecture that's developed side-by-side with its 3D API - it will be a nice testing ground of what the future of 3D APIs could look like.
Aren't the graphics APIs on consoles that, more or less?
flohofwoe
I haven't done console development for a long time, but while the console vendors use their own graphics APIs, the GPUs are (more of less) off-the-shelf parts from AMD or NVIDIA, while Apple completely controls both software and hardware side, so at least theoretically they have more flexibility to harmonize hardware and software.
henrebotha
The article claims T2Linux has "largely solved" the problem of Linux on T2 Macs. Is that true? I have a 2020 MBP with touch bar & 2 Thunderbolt ports. My reading of the T2Linux project sounded a lot more negative than that, but I'd love to be shown I'm wrong.
WhyNotHugo
There's a dedicated page listing the status of different hardware: https://wiki.t2linux.org/state/
Looks like keyboard, touchpad and webcam are not upstream. It's not clear to me if you need a custom kernel, or just out-of-tree drivers.
Suspend, audio and graphics are "partially working".
rock_artist
The interesting questions are:
- When will their toolset drop support for compiling for Intel / x86_64?
- When will they drop Rosetta2?
Compiling/delivering universal binaries is something that as a developer, especially for some markets, you’d like to keep. meaning we try to support older Macs as possible.
For Rosetta2, it might be less needed with all apps transitioned, but for developers using containers, it might be more important to have Intel based containers for a longer period.
izacus
> For Rosetta2, it might be less needed with all apps transitioned, but for developers using containers, it might be more important to have Intel based containers for a longer period.
Most of the games I have from Steam/GoG on my M1 Mac are running through Rosetta2 ... and that probably won't change in the future.
It seems like dropping Rosetta2 is yet another way for Apple to murder their own relevancy for any kind of gaming... despite ok hardware.
rollcat
This.
Apple in the past couple of years was all like, "oh look, gaming on macOS is good now".
I can run a 1995 game OOB on my Windows laptop in 2025.
My question is: on macOS, what's the actual market for casual games, like most of what's on Apple Arcade - especially against iOS? What's the market for the few AAA titles they promote - vs Windows?
People want their existing libraries. With Arm64 in the way, developers who up until now only had to target x86, will care even less. Factorio only cared because they already had a Switch port underway: <https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-371>
Dropping Rosetta2 will be the final nail in the coffin. If Apple did actually care about games, they would strike a deal with Codeweavers to integrate Crossover directly with the system.
Maybe I'll finally get a proper Windows gaming machine.
risho
seems like rosetta 2 will be around for a long time, especially considering they are still putting dev effort into game porting toolkit which is heavily dependent on rosetta 2.
camillomiller
I have answers ;)
• Rosetta will remain available as a general-purpose tool through macOS 27 to help developers migrate their Intel apps, with limited gaming-focused functionality continuing beyond that timeframe
• Intel-based Macs will continue receiving security updates for 3 years following macOS Tahoe
• After the general Rosetta support ends, Apple will maintain a subset of Rosetta functionality specifically for older unmaintained gaming titles that depend on Intel-based frameworks
necubi
Rosetta is also very useful for running x86 Linux containers for dev workflows. Hopefully that will continue to be supported.
guappa
It's apple…
nottorp
Hmm sounds to me like Wine will die then, since it's an x86 application relying on Rosetta to run?
Apple killing gaming on their platform again, like they did with the 32->64 bit transition...
No, "new" ports to arm of 5 year old games sold at full price as app store exclusives don't count...
steelbrain
The “gaming focused functionality” mentioned in the parent post is probably referring to Game Porting Toolkit, which builds on top of wine. So no, It doesnt seen like Wine will die just yet
kombine
> Intel-based Macs will continue receiving security updates for 3 years following macOS Tahoe
This is is great to hear, but even 3 years are probably not enough. 2020-made computers should be used 5+ years more.
dwaite
Three years after Tahoe would be Sept 2029, thats two years past their hardware support (which goes to limited support at 5 and ends at 7)
conradev
Which version of Xcode drops the last Intel SDK as a deployment target?
la_oveja
if i have a 2019 imac (coffee lake) for ios mobile development, how long will i be able to use it for that purpose? i am going to face xcode limitations? will i be able to still push to the app store in the years to come?
rock_artist
> if i have a 2019 imac (coffee lake) for ios mobile development, how long will i be able to use it for that purpose? i am going to face xcode limitations? will i be able to still push to the app store in the years to come?
Based on appstore accepting only last {#}os SDK (not deployment target). Usually Xcode (and Safari) gets support for the previous OS. meaning,
Xcode 26 min macOS is Sequoia 15.x.
So, Xcode 27 min macOS will be macOS 26.
That gives about 2.5 years for Intel Macs to allow complete AppStore integration.
I guess https://github.com/xtool-org/xtool might become more dominant. iiuc, it also valid to use it on "a Mac" even if it was phased out :)
rock_artist
> After the general Rosetta support ends, Apple will maintain a subset of Rosetta functionality specifically for older unmaintained gaming titles that depend on Intel-based frameworks
I guess Apple Rosetta support will be a mix of interests.
1. Apple currently has interest in getting games on their platform. They even made a debugger tool running on Windows so a game dev could profile/debug from his Windows machine :)
2. Unless Apple will have enough power (meaning they will have leverage over games devs), they won't be able to decide when they completely drop Rosetta2.
3. Most likely that companies with personal connections with key people at Apple would take part in when/if the pull the plug on Rosetta2. I guess big software companies might be able to convince Apple is they'll decide to remove it prematurely.
fsflover
> When will they drop Rosetta2?
ksec
At home, I am still on my Early 2015 MacBook Pro running latest macOS with OpenCore patcher. As long as you don't use Safari because Cloudflare think you are a bot it is mostly fine.
The problem with all MacBook after my generation is their keyboard sucks. They have some variant and tiny improvement every year but it still sucks. The 1.5mm key travel is about the minimum I could take. Both butterfly and new scissors, despite giving them time I never quite come to terms with it.
But I guess this is one more year of macOS and perhaps two more for Safari + security. 2028 will be the final deadline.
seanicus
Digression here but, man, Apple knows how to engineer a laptop that will keep on ticking. Every other laptop I've had is depricated in 2 years and virtually worthless by 5. My 2010 MBP isn't even remotely my daily driver but it is still kicking around. Only issue is a dead ram port (and there are some fixes for that I haven't attempted yet).
Cu3PO42
I actually disagree. I really like the keyboard on the current MBP and would describe it as a significant departure from the butterfly keyboard that came after your model.
That said, keyboards are personal preference, so I wish you luck in finding a good replacement. I also quite enjoy current ThinkPads.
danielbln
Yeah, I thought the 2016-2019 keyboards were absolute ass, but they fixed it with from the M1 laptops onwards.
AzN1337c0d3r
Actually, the keyboard mechanism that the M1 MacBook Pros got was from the 2019 16-inch Intel MacBook Pro (which was the first 16-inch MacBook Pro).
So the 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro and the 2020 13-inch MacBook Pros got non-butterfly keyboards.
flomo
The 2016 to? keyboard was actually defective. (But Apple had a great silent warranty on it, which is what you really are paying for.) But I actually really liked the feel otherwise.
graftak
they improved over the butterfly keyboards of that era but the M1 and beyond keyboard are still significantly worse than before 2016. I recently used an older MacBook pro and the difference was quite staggering.
winrid
Really? Maybe it's a modern laptop thing but I also don't like the newer ones. There is almost no travel, it's so weird, and I broke TWO keyboards in a year after having the previous one for 5 years. I have to be super sensitive with them, whereas I could type with a brick with my pre-2020 thinkpads (which also weigh less than 3lbs...)
ksec
The new MBP is indeed significant departure from Butterfly. But the new scissors it is still not back to old scissors key travel. And only works well with touch typist.
If I remember correctly the current Thinkpad should have the same key travel distance as my MBP / old scissors.
But new scissors definitely have better key stability, something carried forward from butterfly ( although not as good as butterfly ). And for people who have preference with key stability it is a better choice.
dontlaugh
They’re much better, for sure. They’re even pretty good.
But the 2015 keyboards are still superior.
aequitas
I have a mid 2015 Macbook Pro 15", also with OpenCore. Running just fine. No issues with Safari and Cloudflake. Only thing is the battery was mostly dead. I replaced it with a iFixit diy battery kit, but that one died completely after just 2 years (out of warranty of course). Probably the controller board, as the cells were nowhere near empty. Now I have the choice to replace it with a cheap battery from unknown source or yet another iFixit one which costs almost the price of this laptop second hand. But I have lost trust in this iFixit product as others seem to have the same problem. Just sucks to have perfectly fine hardware locked behind another expensive battery repair.
ksec
>No issues with Safari and Cloudflake
How do you get pass [Verify you are human by completing the action below] on site like https://www.phoronix.com. ?
tokinonagare
I bought an early 2015 MBP (my favorite design) when the 2016 models where announced and waited until the M1 to buy a new one again, and the keyboard is good again.
sanswork
I have an m1 mbp and I have a 2015 sitting around somewhere and I can't really tell the different between to two. I skipped over the butterfly generation though.
The performance improvement on the m1+ just make it a no brainer for me though even if I hated the keyboard I'd carry around an external one just for the extra power.
noduerme
I'm surprised... what encouraged you to update MacOS? I'm on the first M1 Macbook from 2020 and have not allowed a single OS update. The first thing I do with a mac is use Little Snitch to block all apple IP addresses, and delete all their built in apps. I still have an Air from 2015 and one from 2009, a Titanium from 2004 and a chunky old Powerbook 3400 from the 1990s that all run fine. One or two a decade.
But I never update the OS because I don't want to deal with anything that might break my environment.
omnimus
What might break your envinroment is malware instead.
noduerme
not if you don't download anything you don't trust, and know about every inbound and outbound connection.
newsclues
Assuming all updates break everything is just as dumb as assuming all updates never break anything
eviks
> the company did not try to force this transition to happen faster than it needed to.
> is ultimately unnecessary—and it would lead to a lot of good hardware ending up in landfills.
So this didn't need to happen at all
fastball
That second line is about Windows 10.
leakycap
I appreciate them giving this kind of heads up; I'll be able to buy even cheaper used Intel machines much sooner.
maguay
Curious if anyone here is using Luna Display full-time to turn an Intel iMac into a monitor for a MacBook or Mac Mini. How has it worked for you?
Less arduous than gutting an iMac to turn it into a standalone monitor but seems highly likely the latency would feel annoying.
mannyv
My wife has a 5k iMac, and we're thinking of just using Airplay (you can share monitors via AirPlay now, I'm not sure when Apple added that).
I tested it out the other day and it's relatively OK.
MerlinDE
I have tried it and must say it just doesn’t work well enough. Too high latency, video calls are impossible and you regularly run into arbitrary issues. I ended up buying a standalone monitor again.
Springtime
Which also marks the end of being able to run non-Arm based Windows on Macs natively.
mrkstu
When you have ARM Windows available that can run Intel Windows software, I don't think that really matters.
tonyedgecombe
Isn’t bootcamp there for legacy Windows apps rather than stuff compiled for ARM?
zevon
Bootcamp doesn't really exist anymore but you can use tools like UTM or Parallels to run the ARM build of Windows 11 in a VM - and that build includes an X86 emulation layer, so you can run X86 Windows applications in a double virtualization/emulation whammy. Works surprisingly well, in my limited experience.
hoppp
This mentality is why I dont buy apple products. At least the unsupported macs can use linux at some point, but then I prefer to have a linux machine from the start.
OskarS
I have a sort-of controversial opinion about this: on the contrary, this is one of the reasons I really love using a mac.
As a developer, it’s super-annoying that Apple is so aggressive in deprecation stuff, it forces us to frequently spend a bunch of extra time and energy updating our stuff to make sure it’s compatible woth latest macOS.
As a user though, this means that the experience of actually using a mac feels fresh and modern, and there’s a unity in design language that isn’t available anywhere else. It doesn’t take much digging in Windows settings to find windows that feel straight out of Windows 98, because Microsoft is so terrified of breaking things. macOS just feels better because of Apple’s aggressive deprecation policies, and I very much prefer it.
goosedragons
Until you use the command line and realize Apple is still shipping some crusty ancient GPL2 version of a tool from 2006.*
I found Apple's aggressive change as a user also frustrating. I don't WANT to constantly be rebuying apps and hunting down alternatives to abandoned programs to keep doing what I was doing yesterday.
*Yes, I know why. I don't care.
jeanlucas
What do you buy then? I'm yet to know a brand that offers that long support
hoppp
My work machine is from tuxedo computers. They sell spare parts too. I just changed my battery, all I needed was a screwdriver.
hnaccount_rng
I had one of those for a bit.. It has like half a day of battery power. And in about 50% of the cases it didn't hibernate properly. That being said: It's probably one of the better Linux laptops. Which says about everything that needs saying :/
null
arijun
What? By then the most recent intel mac will be what, 6 years old? And will continue to get security updates for the foreseeable future? Do you expect them to still be making new OS versions for PowerPC as well?
makeitdouble
I'd be with you if Apple didn't bake cloud related features into their OS. From memory, screen time management for a family member required an up to date device for instance. I also wonder if they can still be used for Apple's 2FA.
More things can be done through the web interface than before, but it's still not web first, and not being able to push a button because your OS is 6 years old is pretty frustrating.
hoppp
Yes. Linux and some Bsd variants still have PowerPc builds. Check out NetBSD.
jbs789
If I were you I’d think of it as a trade-off between legacy support and being able to innovate. Sounds like you have some very particular views about priorities which may not be consistent with reality for businesses.
ksec
Adding Another note to myself.
My Early 2015 Intel MacBook Pro has a GB6 Single Core of 974, and Multi Core 1931.
An Early 2025 M4 MacBook Air has a GB6 Single Core of 3700, and Multi Core 14600.
That is 3.7x faster at single core and ~7.5x faster in Multi Core over the span of 10 years. May be M5 is even faster.
On GPU Metal MBP 2015 is roughly ~5500 while 2025 M4 is roughly 55000. So 10x.
Edit: The M4 Pro has a TDP of 32W and PL2 of 40W. So not a very good comparison to Max 28W of Intel Core i5-5257U. But still adding it here.
M4 Pro GB6 3840, Multi Core 20400. Metal 105814.
normie3000
Your 2015 M4 Air must have been an early batch.
adastra22
What does this mean?
normie3000
GP initially said they had a 2015 M4 MacBook Air. It looks like they have now corrected the year to 2025.
sgerenser
It’s a joke, 2015 is 10 years before the M4 Air was released
aurareturn
Since you were using a MacBook Pro, you probably want to compare the Intel chip to an M4 Pro or M4 Max.
Paianni
That means people who bought an Intel-based Mac Pro in 2023 will only have gotten security updates for five years after purchase. Wow.
joshstrange
Ahh yes, the massive number of people who bought a _Mac Pro_ in _2023_….
The only people buying a Mac Pro in 2023 are people who are buying it because they specifically need Intel and they know that Intel on the way out, but they just still need it for something.
If you purchased a Mac Pro in 2023 and didn’t realize this was happening you have no business buying a computer. No one in an Apple Store is gonna push you towards a Mac Pro, it’s a very niche product.
yurishimo
Do they even advertise them in retail locations now? Last time I was in an Apple Store, all I saw was current hardware. I think they can only be bought online.
I went to the Apple.com "find your mac" tool and even knowing what I wanted to get back, I couldn't even convince it to recommend a Mac Pro. https://www.apple.com/mac/best-mac/
philistine
It is literally impossible to get a Mac Pro as a recommandation from Apple. They know the Mac Pro has devolved into a PCIe expansion board accessory with a Mac Studio already attached. They market it accordingly.
punnerud
Why the end of Hackintosh? Doesn’t Windows support ARM, so there should be machines that can support newer versions of MacOS…
Maybe with this there's finally no need any longer to have those mile-wide 256 byte gaps between items in Metal uniform buffers :) (on iOS the alignment is just 16 bytes)
Also hopefully all the special-case handling for 'managed resources' can be dropped (but I guess that would also imply no longer supporting any external non-Apple GPUs).
I'm actually looking forward to a 3D-API that can fully focus on a single GPU architecture that's developed side-by-side with its 3D API - it will be a nice testing ground of what the future of 3D APIs could look like.