Skip to content(if available)orjump to list(if available)

The Era of the Business Idiot

The Era of the Business Idiot

122 comments

·May 21, 2025

triceratops

From this article I found out that not only was Friedman a racist, he was also a dumb racist? For a supposedly brilliant economist, this passage is strikingly stupid and illogical:

> When the owner of the store hires white clerks in preference to [Black clerks] in the absence of the law, he may not be expressing any preference or prejudice, or taste of his own. He may simply be transmitting the tastes of the community. He is, as it were, producing the services for the consumers that the consumers are willing to pay for. Nonetheless, he is harmed, and indeed may be the only one harmed appreciably, by a law which prohibits him from engaging in this activity,

The whole point of anti-discrimination laws is to ensure anyone practicing non-discrimination is not at a disadvantage.

If just that one owner practices race-blind hiring out of their own personal beliefs they would definitely be harmed. If the law requires every store to practice race-blind hiring and the law is strictly enforced, racist customers will just have to get over themselves or stop buying groceries.

ch4s3

This quote is taken totally out of context from the chapter of the book it's from and is clipped to make it appear in the worst light.

Earlier in the chapter he says:

> On the contrary, I believe strongly that the color of a man's skin or the religion of his parents is, by itself, no reason to treat him differently; that a man should be judged by what he is and what he does and not by these external characteristics. I deplore what seem to me the prejudice and narrowness of outlook of those whose tastes differ from mine in this respect and I think the less of them for it

The chapter is discussing the appropriateness of government regulating negative versus positive harms and he makes the case that regulating negative harms is a short-sighted and ineffective means of achieving the policy aim of protecting minorities and that "fair employment" as imposed by the majority is not "free employment". In the same chapter he argues that "right to work" laws interfere with the freedom to engage in contracts. The arguments are far more subtle than Edward Zitron is making them out to be.

Importantly Friedman here and elsewhere refers to people who discriminate on the basis of skin as ignorant racists.

Throughout the book he makes the argument that if you remove the legal frameworks that enforced segregation, that people would over time choose to integrate as they found mutual advantage in doing so. Reasonable people can disagree with this assessment.

He finishes the chapter with this quote:

> On the other side of the picture, we should not be so naive as to suppose that deep-seated values and beliefs can be uprooted in short measure by law.

If anyone thinks that Friedman was a racist, they haven't honestly engaged with his writing.

alexisread

>>>Throughout the book he makes the argument that if you remove the legal frameworks that enforced segregation, that people would over time choose to integrate as they found mutual advantage in doing so. Reasonable people can disagree with this assessment.

Not to weigh in on the quote, but as to this opinion statistics might disagree, and is kinda the basis for positive discrimination: https://ncase.me/polygons/

ch4s3

This is a rather thin and 1 dimensional take on economic preferences, particularly something as complicate as housing. What we actually know from history is that poorer neighborhoods integrated rather freely at the turn of the last centruy because they were cheap and that segregating them required active and ongoing government intervention at all levels of government.

triceratops

I haven't read much Friedman but his logic behind

> regulating negative harms is a short-sighted and ineffective means of achieving the policy aim of protecting minorities

still makes no goddamn sense. I take back the racism accusation until I've read more of his work but

> people would over time choose to integrate as they found mutual advantage

is still some dumb shit. If letting minorities shop or work in your store drives away the majority there's no "mutual advantage". There never will be. You're counting on, or rather praying, for hearts and minds at large to change in order to get voluntary integration. That could take generations, or it may never happen.

If people can't be nice on their own, maybe they need the stick (government regulation) until they learn.

ch4s3

He makes the argument that if your freedom depends on the largess of the majority then it is loosely held and precarious.

> is some dumb shit. If letting minorities shop or work in your store drives away the majority there's no "mutual advantage"

That's not the argument he's making. He argues that it is always more expensive to be a racist, and that absent the legal framework of segregation then people will by financial necessity begin to do business across the color line which will change their preferences over time. He points out that historically there was a time when people would refuse to do business with Quakers, but that over time the free market won out and that discrimination or affect of taste no longer exists.

Again, I think you can reasonably disagree but it isn't obviously stupid to observed that racism incurs an extra cost and markets reward you for not being irrational in that way.

unnamed76ri

This sounds like you are in favor of the government regulating that people must shop in a certain store in order to achieve some arbitrary color integration number.

prasadjoglekar

> If people can't be nice on their own, maybe they need the stick (government regulation) until they learn.

Careful now. Governments change, and along with it priorities for enformcement.

mvdtnz

> This quote is taken totally out of context from the chapter of the book it's from and is clipped to make it appear in the worst light.

It's also important to understand that this is a huge amount of what Zitron does. He is a rage-baiter who does not engage in argument in good faith.

Dracophoenix

If we replaced the grocery store in the example with a Hooters and we replaced white and black grocers with female and male servers, it's easier to see the point being made. This is not to say that it is economically (or morally) sensible in the long term (e.g. Hooters), but it is certainly rational to appeal to a customer's discriminatory preferences for so long as it generates recurring revenue or until some other more profitable avenue opens up. A similar strategy is at play with "Made in USA" marketing (whether or not such claims are true) over the past two decades in its appeal to discrimination/patriotism over financial soundness. In many cases it works.

> If just that one owner practices race-blind hiring out of their own personal beliefs they would definitely be harmed. If the law requires every store to practice race-blind hiring and the law is strictly enforced, racist customers will just have to get over themselves or stop buying groceries.

The harm is to the agency of the owners. The entire point of a free market is voluntary terms of entry, association, and exit notwithstanding contractual obligations to the contrary. There is no harm to a grocery owner who voluntarily chooses to defy the trend set by his competitors except economic self-harm should he suffer a net loss of customers over the decision. It's the freedom of the consumer to consciously or unconsciously boycott a store that doesn't appeal to his preferences (whether for or against racial discrimination), however petty such preferences are or irrelevant to his purpose (i.e. buying food). It is also the consumer's freedom to patronize a store that does. Conversely, the owner may find new consumers and thus a new of source revenue that outperforms that of his competitors through the practice of race-blind hiring.

> If the law requires every store to practice race-blind hiring and the law is strictly enforced, racist customers will just have to get over themselves or stop buying groceries.

Or the customers can move out to the countryside, a suburb, or a small town where they can only find white grocers. They can also look for farmers' cooperatives or food clubs unlikely to be staffed by any other race.

triceratops

> The harm is to the agency of the owners

The status quo of discrimination caused harm to the agency of minority employees and shoppers. Why are "owners" more important than them?

> There is no harm to a grocery owner... except economic self-harm

So then there is harm. Economic harm is kinda the important kind of harm to a business owner. Every other "harm" is surmountable.

> Or the customers can move out to the countryside, a suburb, or a small town where they can only find white grocers

So what's the problem? They've added transaction costs for themselves to express their preferences.

lenerdenator

> brilliant economist

There's the problem. Economics is the science of explaining tomorrow why the predictions you made yesterday didn't come true today.

We don't call people who successfully predict things "economists", we call them planners.

gruez

>There's the problem. Economics is the science of explaining tomorrow why the predictions you made yesterday didn't come true today.

Plenty of economists' predictions hold up. Turkey's unorthodox economic theory that higher interest causes inflation did not pan out, and when they hiked interest rates inflation duely dropped. Most prices drop with increased supply and increase with decreased supply. There are some goods that buck this trend, but that's incorporated into economic theory. Moreover your comment implies that economists shouldn't try to explain when their theories don't match up. This seems entirely antithetical to science? Astronomers used to be believe in geocentrism. Is it bad for them to explain why their geocentrist predictions not hold?

>We don't call people who successfully predict things "economists", we call them planners.

I can't tell whether this is satire. For me, "planners" invoke either bureaucrats of command economies, which have a pretty lousy economic history, or people on zoning boards. Neither are "people who successfully predict things".

turnsout

Exactly. Economists don't even have good theories for why something happened, let alone what might happen in the future. The entire field is vibe-based, which they try to cover up with a lot of crackpot math.

zeroCalories

Maybe people would just stop shopping as much if everyone was forced to participate? Is the solution to force everyone to engage in mandatory diversity shopping? Or is that what taxes are for?

triceratops

> people would just stop shopping as much if everyone was forced to participate

They'd be out-competed on being able to eat by the people who continued buying groceries without letting their personal biases affect their shopping. Then it's just Darwin at work.

zeroCalories

You think you need 100% shopping or 0% shopping? More like when the vibe is off at the cafe you'll decide to just order some beans off Amazon instead.

lenerdenator

I like the cut of Zitron's jib, but have to disagree with this point here:

> We live in the era of the symbolic executive, when "being good at stuff" matters far less than the appearance of doing stuff, where "what's useful" is dictated not by outputs or metrics that one can measure but rather the vibes passed between managers and executives that have worked their entire careers to escape the world of work.

We have redefined competence, but we haven't redefined it to be measured in nebulous ways. Far from it. Nadella does one thing and he does it well: he makes number go up. And that's all that matters.

Number gotta go up. If you don't make number go up, then how Grugg Ugug, MBA, to figure out how company doing? You no seriously expect Grugg to approach enterprise of measuring benefit of a business to society without one simple number.

We used to measure the worth of investment and expenditures of capital by their holistic benefit to society. That was way more thinking than business school graduates in this country wanted to do, so we distilled it down to the quarterly profit. At the very least, these people could understand addition, subtraction, and which number was bigger than the other. The "nebulous" way was what we got away from as a result.

h2zizzle

>Nadella does one thing and he does it well: he makes number go up.

I'm unconvinced that it's him so much as MS' entrenched position as a contractor, and ZIRP. There are a lot of companies whose number go up for whom number should no no go up, but it did, because they had first dibs at the money printer trough.

null

[deleted]

johnea

> We have redefined competence

Thanks for that! I'll definitely use that one...

delusional

> > We live in the era of the symbolic executive, when "being good at stuff" matters far less than the appearance of doing stuff, where "what's useful" is dictated not by outputs or metrics that one can measure but rather the vibes passed between managers and executives that have worked their entire careers to escape the world of work.

> We have redefined competence, but we haven't redefined it to be measured in nebulous ways. Far from it. Nadella does one thing and he does it well: he makes number go up. And that's all that matters.

I think Ziton would argue that this statement was supposed to be one level below "number going up". His argument seems to be not that number shouldn't go up, but that the number that goes up used to be based on "being good at stuff" but now isn't.

His argument isn't that executives shouldn't focus on the money, but rather that the money has last track of what they were supposed to track. It's not the executive themselves, it's the economy. The executives would then be the outcome of skewed incentives by an economy that has disconnected from "useful stuff".

This also happens to be my favorite take. So I may just be confirmation biased.

surgical_fire

While I agree with your post, I don't really think that goes counter to the original meaning of the argument as a whole. He even mentions some paragraphs later that CEOs are only fired when line does not go up:

> While CEOs do get fired when things go badly, it's often after a prolonged period of decline and stagnancy, and almost always comes with some sort of payoff — and when I say "badly," I mean that growth has slowed to the point that even firing masses of people doesn't make things better.

And I think that's what he was gesturing at in the beginning when ranting about Satya. He knows Satya is not an imbecile, he would not survive the cutthroat sociopathic business environment if he was.

The logical conclusion is that Satya is just bullshitting on a softball interview to prop up Microsoft's copilot thing. That is a marketing piece, not a proper interview.

And on bullshit, it is always important to keep something in mind:

"bullshit is speech intended to persuade without regard for truth. The liar cares about the truth and attempts to hide it; the bullshitter doesn't care whether what they say is true or false."

listenallyall

> measure the worth of investment and expenditures of capital by their holistic benefit to society.

This seems specious, I mean, when? And how?

The article seems to contradict you, given that it is mostly focused on tech companies that do in fact spend billions in product development and tend to delay huge profits. Amazon, famously, was universally praised for its various innovations in e-commerce (i.e. benefit to society) while not making a profit for what, 25 years? The current business press gushes over "big data", the metaverse, AI, whatever, despite many such projects actually losing billions of dollars before being shut down or vastly reduced.

I'm not claiming these companies do actually benefit society, but Wall Street and the press is often willing to overlook immediate profit for the promise of long-term dominance (and the rewards that come with that) and in the meantime, they will at least promote the possibility of future societal benefit to justify their position.

cannabis_sam

“Business Idiot” seems like a bit of a superfluous phrase, outside of criticizing that particularly dangerous group of people hell-bent on destroying humanity as a concept. But the article is woefully lacking in that regard.

neom

We have to carefully select the yardstick by which progress and success are measured. If we don't, we inevitably drift towards meaningless, short-term, and ultimately destructive forms of growth instead of progress. Incentive failures are more nuanced than “Friedman = root of all evil.” Venture capital structure, indexing, and monetary policy also drive the short termism. It's part of why I'm skeptical the next wave of amazing technology companies will come out of America.

tim333

Zitron is such a moaner. Just page after page on how everything is crap.

>The Business Idiot is the manager that doesn't seem to do anything but keeps being promoted, and the chief executive officer of a public company that says boring, specious nonsense about AI

The CEO being Aaron Levie who dropped out of college to start Box, now worth a few billion. I wonder how much the brilliant Zitron has achieved with the moanathons.

dttze

Oh wow, what an amazingly skilled businessman for getting money during the era of ZIRP. For a shitty file hosting service, nonetheless. How dare Ed besmirch him.

mvdtnz

How many billions did you make during ZIRP?

dttze

None, you?

VOIPThrowaway

Nitpick:

Maximizing shareholder values can include treating your workers well if you think happy workers are more productive and therefore help with profits.

Same with good customer service, environmental regulation following, and other things.

surgical_fire

> Maximizing shareholder values can include treating your workers well if you think happy workers are more productive and therefore help with profits.

The capital class finds it very icky when peasants are fairly treated. They typically punish ir by making like go down.

You don't need to have red skin and horns to take great pleasure in making those less powerful suffer.

disqard

Indeed, witness the recent RTO drive across the industry for knowledge workers.

mikestew

TFA is a lengthy slog, but it seemed to be mostly worth it. If nothing else, TFA ties together a lot of the business folk wisdom with its origins, repeatedly pointing out that this one is based on the thoughts of a blatant racist, this other one used as the basis for RTO came from someone talking about factory workers, not office workers, etc.

ddejohn

Ed writes a lot of good stuff, but yeah, they're usually a slog. His diatribes seem to be getting longer lately too.

ch4s3

This is the first thing I've read by him and it is full of errors and out of context quotes.

ch4s3

Except Friedman wasn't a racist, and the quote is cut specifically to make it appear that way. In the very same chapter Friedman argues that discrimination based on skin color is irrational and wrong. Edward Zitron is lying in his framing.

In the same chapter Friedman literally says:

> On the contrary, I believe strongly that the color of a man's skin or the religion of his parents is, by itself, no reason to treat him differently; that a man should be judged by what he is and what he does and not by these external characteristics. I deplore what seem to me the prejudice and narrowness of outlook of those whose tastes differ from mine in this respect and I think the less of them for it.

jxjnskkzxxhx

> https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=ch4s3

> Except Friedman wasn't a racist, and the quote is cut specifically to make it appear that way.

He doesn't say that Friedman was racist, you made that up.

He says that Friedman was a fundamentalist and that people should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, and the quote illustrates that well and the context doesn't change anything to that point.

ch4s3

I'm saying he clipped the quote to give that impression.

> He says that Friedman was a fundamentalist and that people should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, and the quote illustrates that well and the context doesn't change anything to that point.

No, Firedman says that government force isn't the best way to address discrimination. Again the quote is clipped to mislead.

surgical_fire

He was making an argument that owners should be allowed to discriminate against black people.

Prefacing that with "I am personally against discrimination" is pretty much meaningless. His awful economic doctrine and beliefs will result in discrimination anyway.

Let's not pretend Friedman needs to be presented in a bad light to make it clear he was an awfully evil person.

ch4s3

If you read the whole chapter it’s clear that he’s not saying that. He’s arguing the government shouldn’t legislate against negative harm. He’s using this for framing.

I absolutely think it’s ridiculous to call him an evil person, it’s a totally unfair characterization.

pnutjam

The classic, I'm not a "whatever terrible thing", but those terrible people are ok and it's fine for them to be terrible.

Guess what that makes you?

ch4s3

It really isn't that at all, he argues that it's wrong to discriminate but that government interference in the freedom to make contracts isn't the best solution. He goes on to elaborate an make a case for how else it might be better addressed. The article intentionally misleads by clipping the quote out of context.

dvt

> pointing out that this one is based on the thoughts of a blatant racist

Actually this is a pretty weak point. We have plenty of historical examples where a terrible person came up with a brilliant idea. So Friedman being racist or not (he was categorically not, Zitron is being unfair here) is kind of a non-issue. The philosophical problem is that favoring shareholder value above moral value or social value (or whatever you want to call it: the betterment of society; or Socrates' "flourishing" [εὐδαιμονία]) just doesn't seem to have any positive externalities.

"Line go up," sure, but what does that actually do? "Line go up" teleology is trivially a dead end moral philosophy. In fact, if history is much of a teacher, any economic teleology seems to be pretty morally bankrupt—from concrete jungle capitalism to Bolshevik communism to bartering. I'm extrapolating, but here, I do agree with Ed.

lazide

If you were trying to plan for retirement; and had a specific number you were trying to hit, who are you going to give your money to?

The person who is good at consistently making the value/number go up and to the right on your money; or the one that gives vague ‘social good’ reasons why they aren’t?

Especially if the ‘social good’ stuff is often vague and non-concrete?

The world is a much different place from when Socrates was around.

dvt

> If you were trying to plan for retirement; and had a specific number you were trying to hit, who are you going to give your money to?

This has nothing to do with the broader point of drafting policies that further social flourishing (there's disagreements as to what this means, of course) as opposed to drafting policies that further "line go up." In fact, I'd argue that the latter is meaningless without a foundational underpinning (we see this in imploding hyper-inflated economies).

In other words, who cares if I have a zillion Funbucks if the country is falling apart?

drcongo

I invest on social impact, so option b?

drcongo

He may not be racist racist, but he's most definitely an absolute piece of shit - Ed should maybe have focussed more on all his other shitty attributes.

null

[deleted]

jxjnskkzxxhx

> "being good at stuff" matters far less than the appearance of doing stuff

I've recently figured this out a out the company where I work, after an embarrassingly large number of years. My manager pays lip service to "high quality code" to justify his endless torrent of nitpicks, but when it comes to his own stuff he hides some times serious problems. Like, seriously, I've found undeniable evidence that he was aware of the malfunctioning of a data collection system and instead of reporting/fixing, he made sure to make it harder for anyone else to find it.

He's very well respected, however, and has this incredible aura of professionalism.

This realization also explains why everything is done so poorly in my company. Hitting the ill defined requirements in letter but not in principle, and then blaming a different team when problems are uncovered, is more than enough.

beloch

It's an ironic choice to choose longform as the vehicle for this message. This is the one form of blog-post/journalism for which it is worth using a bot to generate an abstract, just to decide if you'll read it. I've been burned by a link-bait title and an author who veers off the promised road into a ditch or an entirely different alleyway one too many times.

reverendsteveii

I didn't sign up for the newsletter because OP listens to El-P, but that would have been enough on its own. I signed up for the Milton Friedman hate.

therobot24

optimizing business value in the manner perpetuated by Friedman assumes you know more than you do and can adapt to things because of that knowledge, ultimately no one can actually do this because the world is chaotic and difficult to anything and everything that tries to master that chaos

ch4s3

On the contrary. Friedman argued that if as an executive you try to steer a business towards your particular personal aims that you are presuming to know more than you do about what is best for your shareholders who actually own the company. He is arguing that political whim is not a way to allocate the scarce resources of a company/society.

In particular the article linked in this blog post is Friedman arguing against Nixon's price controls and Nixon's insistence that it was "socially responsible" to not raise prices as you own costs went up. Stripping the article of this consequence is either dishonest, or stupid.

therobot24

So my interpretation of how Friedman drew his theories of market (and granted I'm no expert, just a layman reading things online) are about every business should optimize as much as utterly possible even if this results in exploitation, because the market will accept exploitation until it can't and correct. I think you and i are aligned in this belief. Where i think we're separated, likely cause i just didn't explain it very well, was that to me, this means you as a CEO are accepting exploitation under the guise that you have the ability to react to the market forces to correct for it. That you 'know the market' and can adapt as needed. Such as described in the Friedman quote within the article which expresses an extremely libertarian view of how companies should be able to hire and fire workers:

> “...consider a situation in which there are grocery stores serving a neighborhood inhabited by people who have a strong aversion to being waited on by Negro clerks. Suppose one of the grocery stores has a vacancy for a clerk and the first applicant qualified in other respects happens to be a Negro. Let us suppose that as a result of the law the store is required to hire him. The effect of this action will be to reduce the business done by this store and to impose losses on the owner. If the preference of the community is strong enough, it may even cause the store to close. When the owner of the store hires white clerks in preference to Negroes in the absence of the law, he may not be expressing any preference or prejudice, or taste of his own. He may simply be transmitting the tastes of the community. He is, as it were, producing the services for the consumers that the consumers are willing to pay for. Nonetheless, he is harmed, and indeed may be the only one harmed appreciably, by a law which prohibits him from engaging in this activity, that is, prohibits him from pandering to the tastes of the community for having a white rather than a Negro clerk. The consumers, whose preferences the law is intended to curb, will be affected substantially only to the extent that the number of stores is limited and hence they must pay higher prices because one store has gone out of business.”

In my view, the scenario and reasoning by Friedman in how he applies market forces applying to business decisions is a view where you have an assumption of 'knowing the result' of any decision and using that 'knowledge' as justification for reasoning. When in reality, you don't know the result, you can estimate, but that's about it. So when an exec is applying Friedman principles they're trying to 'know the market' and that's a fundamental error in my mind due to the chaos of the world how it can manifest across all avenues of life.

janalsncm

As they say, it takes two to tango. For every business idiot charming investors with vapid promises, there is a swarm of investors either fooled by the charm or hoping to sell to a greater fool. If investors won’t punish companies for lying about e.g. self driving being “very easy” then why shouldn’t CEOs commit blatant fraud in between Twitter flame wars? (Law be damned!)

jxjnskkzxxhx

> What do you mean by "other tasks"? Why are these questions never asked?

To anyone else who, like me, has noticed this, the answer is: these interviews happen so that the interviewee can put out the message they want, and so that the interviewer can charge advertisers. Asking questions that could derail the theatre is not in the interest of the people involved.

This also creates an environment where the interviewers are self selected. Interviewers who derail the interviewee's exposition don't land important interviewees.

janalsncm

I imagine that an interviewer who suddenly put out an “emperor has no clothes” interview could short the stock and do quite well. It would also be a public service.

null

[deleted]

jxjnskkzxxhx

Blatant market manipulation. Thanks for the public service, enjoy prison.