Skip to content(if available)orjump to list(if available)

Four years of sight reading practice

exchemist

This is cool, though the notes in your example look pretty random? Are they actually randomly or is it just too modern for me to hear it without playing it?

I'm a fairly average pianist, but sight reading is a (relative) strength. Being able to play random notes is definitely part of it, but I think for me sight-reading is more about getting a sense of the gist of the music (a lot of pattern matching of common phrases, cadences, hand positions etc) - this is kind of subconcious, then my focus is on keeping my internal version aligned with what's on the page (spotting where the written music is doing something different or interesting and making sure you hit those notes). The latter part would definitley improve by practicing random notes, but the first bit is more akin to improvisation - you've got some lossy, distilled version of the music in your head (from memory or from your first mental parse of the full manuscript) and you're trying to recreate it (or expound on it).

I think what really helped my reading was having lots of cheap/free sheet music on hand and just trying to play it (simplifying massively if needed, but trying to get the sense of it, even if only playing 20% of the notes)

TheOtherHobbes

Yes, that's the problem with this approach. You don't learn random notes, you learn note patterns.

It's the difference between learning to recognise letters and learning to read words. Music is made of words - scale-specific gestures, of which there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, typically arranged in some kind of harmonic context so you can make reasonable guesses about what's coming next.

This matters because finger positions have to be optimised for the smoothest and fastest motion. Piano sheet music usually includes this information, but random note sequences won't.

All of it contributes to look-ahead, where you're reading a bar or two ahead of the music to give your brain time to assemble the finger movements it's going to need.

eitally

I was going to make the same comment as the PP, but I disagree with your point about "note patterns". When you're sight reading real music (melodies, harmonies and chords), that's when you start grokking note patterns and can reach real mastery. Sufficiently good sight readers often don't even need to read every individual note to anticipate what will "happen next" because in many cases chord progressions, rhythms and harmonies are fairly predictable (especially, especially in pop/rock music, religious music and a lot of early classical.

I think the OP would have benefitted more from programming an interface to project Hanon's exercises[1] to practice than randomized notes.

[1] https://www.hanon-online.com/ <-- perhaps the most popular fingering practice for pianists. It's boring and tedious, but it 100% works!

mianos

They are not anticipating the next phrase from memory. Music has a structure that often repeats or relates to earlier patterns. Like reading, you look forward and recognise the patterns in the score and their relative position. While I am partially agreeing with you, I disagree about 'reading' individual notes. You see every note, you just don't need to convert them to a letter or key, because your hand is playing the whole phrase by interpreting the structure.

stonemetal12

> good sight readers often don't even need to read

That would suggest they aren't good at reading, but good at playing. If you are practicing reading, then not reading and making stuff up is against what you are trying to do.

EvanAnderson

> Music is made of words - scale-specific gestures, of which there are hundreds, perhaps thousands...

This made me think of typing tutor programs that just prompt for random letters. I type like shit on those-- slow and inaccurate.

On the other hand, I'm quick and reasonably accurate when typing English words and frequently-used command lines.

The analogy would surely hold true with musical instruments. Even with my limited experience playing musical instruments I can't imagine trying to practice random notes and rhythms. On the face of it I would think it would have little to no value. (Effectively practicing to play unlistenable music...)

klodolph

I remember typing tutors that started with the home row and slowly expanded. There aren’t a lot of words that use the home row exclusively, so you end up with nonsense.

(You said “typing tutors programs” but my memory is of actual tutors, as in, people.)

You may not like practicing random notes but maybe you want to play Schönberg or Bartók?

vishnugupta

> typing tutor programs that just prompt for random letters

I learnt touch typing on a physical mechanical typewriter. The syllabus that I followed did seem random but as I kept at it I could see there was a method to the madness.

I checked out a few software tutorials and they seemed OK. Maybe there are some not good ones.

brudgers

Music is made of words - scale-specific gestures, of which there are hundreds, perhaps thousands, typically arranged in some kind of harmonic context so you can make reasonable guesses about what's coming next

Some genres of music are that way. Other genres have different conventions, ethics, and aesthetics. Even within harmonically oriented Euro-traditions, great weight is given to a musician’s ability to play what does not easily “fall under the fingers.”

There’s nothing wrong with Smoke on the Water but it is totally played.

khazhoux

> It's the difference between learning to recognise letters and learning to read words

Bebop is the best example of this for me in music. When I first started listening to Charlie Parker as a teenager, I heard only a series of notes. But it sounded great so I kept listening (a lot!) and then I heard phrases, sentences, an actual language.

Then I bought Giant Steps and again heard only a scramble of notes. It was a new language, which took some time to learn. But now listening to Coltrane and listening to someone talk, feels exactly the same.

chthonicdaemon

Yes the notes are in a random sequence. The "chords" appear to be chosen as major or minor triads, with random inversions or random "common intervals" like octaves, fifths and fourths, I don't think I've ever come across a tritone or "wierd" intervals.

I have gone through various phases in how it feels to play these random notes. Right at the beginning there is obviously the mechanical skill of just being able to put your fingers in the right place. This is less pronounced on piano than guitar, since single notes on the piano are obviously pretty easy for anyone. But when I switched to chords, I definitely felt the feeling I remember from learning the guitar, where the campfire chord shapes seemed to be just impossible to achieve with my fingers.

Keep in mind that this is not the only thing I'm doing to learn - I am also learning pieces, playing arpeggios and scales and studying music theory. Lately I've been gaining speed on the random notes by identifying runs and reading ahead a bit like you're describing.

I am quite proficient at guitar, played in a band and did a lot of pop music playing where you're handed a lyric sheet with chords and you have to just play. I can do that pretty much without prep. I can also "sight read" tablature for reasonably simple finger picking for novel songs quite a bit faster than I am able to do it on piano at the moment. I could never quite get there for traditional notation although I tried. I struggled to improve because once I knew the piece, I could play it without reading the music. So I would laboriously figure out the fingerings, then just play the piece from memory once I had done that. This was all happening in the early 1990s so I also didn't have the glut of music we would have now. Tablature was much more available for the pieces I wante to learn than traditional notation. I guess there is a mode where you force yourself to only learn new pieces all the time, but I found that pretty frustrating coming from zero.

I'm finding with piano, now that I have the notes in my fingers, that first step is much less frustrating and I can focus on building the mechanical dexterity to execute the phrases and remember the music.

CGMthrowaway

>I am mostly counting the number of sharps and flats and translating that to the keyboard through a pattern I figured out early on. The sharps “activate” from left to right across the groups of black notes, starting with F♯, alternating between the two groups of black notes. This is easier to get into your fingers than any other memorisation technique. The order for flats is mechanically symmetrical – you just start from the right and move left, again from the “first” note in the group of three, which in that case is B♭. I am still not quite sure how other people are learning this, since most of the materials I’ve seen have focused on learning the actual names by rote, using mnemonics like “Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle”

Is this what self-taught looks like? I have never heard of that mnemonic and it was never hard to learn the order of sharps/flats in a key signature. You just look at the way it's written on the staff - two lines of sharps a 4th apart going up progressively, two lines of flats a 4th apart going down progressively.

I don't want to discourage the guy, but practicing every day for 4 years straight and he's only gotten to 60bpm... there are better methods to learn piano sight reading.

bluGill

When you don't start with music theory (which took many centuries to develop) you end up with lots of things that work but not as well.

You don't have to learn music theory yourself, so long as theory is something someone knew in the past to design how you learn. What matters is that you learn the useful patterns, why those patterns are useful is not something you need to know (except if you are trying to break the rules - understanding the rules means you understand what happens when you break them and thus can come up with good breakages instead of unmusical noise)

mtalantikite

"I am still not quite sure how other people are learning this..."

We practice our scales through the circle of fifths. I don't really follow what they mean by "activates" at F#.

If this is getting the author to play and they're having fun, then that's great. But having a great teacher is invaluable, particularly when you're trying to lay down the fundamentals. It's going to be more difficult to unlearn bad habits in the future.

chthonicdaemon

Yes, I guess this is what self-taught looks like. Although I have seen the use of mnemonics to remember the order of things in many contexts in music, including formal teaching. I thought some of these were universal: FACE and Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge for the note names on the staff, Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle, Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles' Father.

By this time I must admit that the random note playing is just an activity that I enjoy improving at independently, while I do think it's also making it easier for me to pick up new pieces quickly.

smus

60bpm of random notes!

brudgers

  >> This is easier to get
  >> into your fingers than 
  >> any other memorisation 
  >> technique.
Getting the sharps and flats under your hands is an entirely different process than answering a quiz question in Music Theory 101.

Four years playing the piano is still a beginner level of experience against an adult standard of piano playing. Even if it is a lot for an eight year old child.

lucas_codes

I love data visualizations like these.

OP if you want to improve sight reading faster, I would recommend using non-random notes - context is very important when sight reading and if you get a professional pianist to sight read random notes they will be much, much slower.

Sight reading factory is one site I know that does this a bit better

yayitswei

I agree. Reminds me of that story about chess grandmasters having incredible memory for valid chess positions but performing no better than average when remembering random piece arrangements. There's likely some efficient compression you can achieve by playing real-world music patterns rather than random notes. And it sounds better!

An interesting middle ground might be using LLMs to generate plausible melodies based on real-world music patterns and emphasizing the unfamiliar patterns, but if the goal is to play real music fluently, nothing beats practicing with actual pieces from the repertoire you want to play.

tarentel

This is the first thing I noticed when I saw a sample of music. How useful could sight reading random notes actually be? I can't imagine it's completely useless but a lot of music is remarkably similar and quite predictable. I'd imagine practicing sight reading music with real structure would be far more useful for understanding those patterns and helping learn new and more complex pieces.

vunderba

+1 for SRF. The generated pieces tend to be a bit more "musical" in nature as well and it also supports other instruments (guitar, violin, etc.)

seanhunter

This is a really terrible way to learn sightreading.

I got to music college without really being able to read at all and turned it into a real strength to the extent that by my final year I was by far the best sight reader in the college on my instrument (I was a bass player so it's a relatively low bar, but I was even a good reader compared to many folks on other instruments). How I learned (and what I would recommend) is get yourself a truly massive pile of music for your instrument and get a metronome or drum machine app on your preferred device.

Then, every day (will take a few months to get good) pick a piece up from the pile, allow yourself a few seconds to check out the key and time signature, check for repeats etc so you know the basic structure and look for anything funky (odd bars, key changes etc). Set the metronome a little below the indicated tempo on the music (you can work up to sightreading fully up to speed), then start the metronome and immediately play it through without stopping as though you were doing a performance. Then put the music on the done pile, pick up the next piece and go back to the start.

So: Use real music. Play each piece once as though it was a performance. With a metronome/drum machine to keep you honest tempo-wise. In a few months you will get good at sightreading.

Once you're good start doing transcriptions of things you like. Doesn't need to be your instrument. Obviously this helps your ear but I found it also helped my sightreading. But it's not really worth doing until your basic sightreading chops are solid.

seanhunter

The one additional thing I forgot to mention is that random notes as per TFA are almost entirely unrelated to the activity of sight reading but random rhythms are not. I made myself a bunch of flashcards with every conceivable combination of notes and rests adding up to a crotchet/quarter note on each card. Then I would scramble the deck , set the metronome and deal myself out say 4 bars of 4/4. Then sing or tap the rhythm in tempo. That helped a lot for reading more rhythmically intense stuff.

chthonicdaemon

I'm curious in both of these cases what you are using for feedback. Specifically in the rhythm case, how do you know if you nailed it or just played some other rhythm than was shown by your cards? Did you also generate the sound?

In the case of playing a random piece of music, if you don't know it, again, how do you know how well you've done? I've been contemplating a similar thing with my repertoire playing, choosing a random bar for revision or learning via Anki.

Another thing - it sounded like you already played your instrument well, but wanted sight read, when you were doing this learning. So perhaps you already had a lot of the phrases in your fingers so to speak and this was just allowing you to connect the notation to what you already knew how to play. Do you think this would have worked well in my case where I could play a different instrument but didn't have any mechanical memory of chord shapes, arpeggios and so on in my fingers?

seanhunter

Good questions. How I knew I was doing it right is the same as for the rest of my practice, which is I would often record myself and listen back. It’s pretty cringe inducing but you’ve got to do it if you want to get good and better to listen to yourself sounding bad on your practice recording than to hear yourself sounding bad on playback in a studio when there are a lot of other folks there and time is money. A lot of people who are serious also video themselves practicing tyo fix bad habits although I never really did that.

And then yes I was ok when I started to really focus on reading but I was very serious about getting good in general so was practicing a bunch of scales, arpeggios, learning other people’s lines, etc. on bass (and guitar) when you play a lot of scales you develop a lot of mechanical memory so you have like a plan in your mind of the entire fingerboard and you can decide where best to shift position etc. I used to come up with studies for myself to practice what to do if I wss in an awkward spot (eq starting low with the tonic on my little finger etc). That stuff ends up helping your reading a lot because you can get yourself our of any kind of jam generally.

vunderba

As others have mentioned, I would not recommend learning to sight-read from randomly generated assortments of notes, simply because the runs/progressions are unlikely to be found in the "wild," so you aren't building up mental patterns for chunking groups.

Even though I could read sheet music, I mostly played piano by ear until around high school when I decided to properly learn to sight-read. At the time, my access to musical resources was limited, so I borrowed the Episcopal Church hymnal from our church.

The great thing about hymnals is that they are choral in nature, usually with four voices, but at the same time, they are rhythmically simple in nature since they are intended to be sung, allowing you to purely concentrate on the notes themselves.

I ran through it sequentially for months and found that my sight-reading capabilities measurably improved.

https://hymnary.org/hymnal/HPEC1940

k__

But isn't this a good thing?

I always try to avoid learning by pattern, because it would make me less flexible when composing.

eitally

No, not at all (imho), because if you're starting from scratch and don't even know which notes make up common chords or progressions, how in the world will you figure out how to compose something that sounds good / makes sense?

It's important to know the notes on the keyboard, but it's far more important to know how they work together in harmonious patterns. Composing entirely by ear is an option, but you still need to transliterate what your mind is hearing into notes on a page (preferably more complex than just a single note melody).

I 100% get where you're coming from, but I think a grounding in theory helps a ton with composition (even if you don't know how to play a specific instrument).

vunderba

Well everyone learns differently. My earliest "compositions" (if you can call them that) are from grade school whistling into an old tape recorder and then transcribing them on our upright piano. Many of my friends who are musicians could also compose based on their ability to sing LONG before they had any working knowledge of music theory.

Additionally let me call out that sight reading and composition are completely different objectives.

I also sincerely doubt playing random notes on the piano as part of a sight reading process would make you a better composer unless you're aiming to be the next Karlheinz Stockhausen.

ryanscio

Agreed. Among pianists Bach's four-part chorales [1] are a widely used practice resource for working on sight reading because of the sheer volume of the catalog.

[1] https://www.bach-chorales.com

brudgers

I have been using the same M-Audio Axiom 49 key MIDI keyboard for years

Used these can be found for cheap, and short of MPE, hammer action, and a build for touring these might have everything a MIDI controller needs.

Layers, splits, onboard programmability, plenty of controls, DIN ports, USB, and afterfouch (but like the author's keyboard, the faders are always missing the custom keycaps for the non-standard size fader stems).

They are a plastic fantastic in gorgeous oughties silver.

chthonicdaemon

I was intrigued by your mention of custom keycaps, so for the first time since I bought the keyboard I pulled off one of the caps to find a kind of usable fader still left there with a little red mark for the center. Now I'm googling for custom keycap options. So much for avoiding GAS.

gabrielsroka

Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS)

ImPostingOnHN

Thank you, there was absolutely no clue in the article for what that jargon/meme meant, and googling for gas obviously didn't help.

brudgers

I don’t think there are any readily available keycaps for your Axiom because M-Audio used faders with an odd size of stem and probably made custom moulds for the ones you have.

What I meant is that used Axioms are usually missing keycaps.

But they can be found cheap and have many great features. Plus the keybed is ok’ish.

pier25

The best ear training is really solfege. It's been used for centuries. You basically learn to "sing" to create an internal "muscle memory" of the intervals, chords, etc much faster than the typical ear training app.

Edit:

I used singing in quotes because you only really intonate (generate an accurate pitch with your voice). You don't learn actual singing technique.

perlgeek

Doesn't practicing with random notes become very boring?

I imagine it would be far more engaging (but also far more complicated) to tap into an archive of songs and present those randomly, either selected by or transposed into the key that you want to practice.

tianshuo

There is an app called Piano Maestro that makes it much more fun, a large pool of pop songs, and increasing difficulty. We use multiple apps at home with our Yamaha piano that has a Bluetooth midi connected to it, including Notequest, Notevision and recently Piano Maestro.

chthonicdaemon

I have found this to be less boring than trying to plough through my copy of Hanon, since there is rapid feedback. It's a different kind of game. I struggle to get to 10 minutes of scales or Hanon stuff, but have no issue on the random notes.

alnwlsn

I feel like learning random notes would be the musical equivalent of the Chinese Room. You would be good at sight reading, but not be 'musical'.

A bit like when people tell you to learn Morse code, not to learn it letter by letter.

perlgeek

> A bit like when people tell you to learn Morse code, not to learn it letter by letter.

Fun fact, during WW2 there were lots of encrypted transmissions over Morse code, and lots of folk (often women, in the UK at least) had the job to transcribe them. They would then be passed on to the cryptoanalytics specialists in Bletchley Park. I guess other countries had similar arrangements.

So they would sit 8h+ a day and transcribe what looked like garbage to them.

mbeavitt

You mention you are looking for a good resource for training listening - have you tried https://tonedear.com/?

chthonicdaemon

Thank you, I will look into it

ziofill

I've been playing the piano for 30 years, and although I'm pretty good at sight reading I don't think I would manage well on random notes. Music is generally not random (even jazz): there is structure, there is alternating tension and resolution, lots of patterns etc... However, I can see the appeal of just getting good at translating symbols into sound, I'm pretty sure that if I practiced with random notes I would also get better with patterns.

HenryBemis

> You don’t need to name notes to play them

I was playing piano as a child, and I was ok-ish. I started again a couple of years ago as a 'workout' for my brain/reflexes/speed/etc rather than to amaze the crowds (I never play in front of other people - 2-3 people know/have seen me play).

The author wanted to 'learn how to play'. I wanted to re-learn 'playing music', and if you want to get the notes of a random song and play it half-decent, I'm sorry but you need to be able to read the bloody thing :)

In case anyone wants to try their luck, I will suggest to buy a second-hand electric piano (I got a Yamaha), and for 'guide/teacher' I use SimplyPiano (not affiliated) and it has taken me from "play with one finger" to "play with two hands" (but I take it slow and easy - I will never reach Ryuichi Sakamoto level)