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Intel sells 51% stake in Altera to private equity firm on a $8.75B valuation

roughly

Without arguing the merits of the Altera investment or divestment, a common pattern for Intel seems to be a wild see-sawing between an aggressive and a defensive market posture - it’s a regular occurrence for Intel to announce a bold new venture to try to claim some new territory, and just as regular that they announce they’re halting that venture in the name of “consolidating” and “focusing on their core.” The consequence is that they never give new ventures time to actually succeed, so they just bleed money creating things they murder in the cradle, and nobody born before last Tuesday is investing in bothering to learn the new Intel thing because its expected lifespan is shorter than the average Google product.

Intel either needs to focus or they need to be bold (and I’d actually prefer they be bold - they’ve started down some cool paths over time), but what they really need is to make up their goddamn minds and stop panicking every other quarter that their “ten-year bets” from last quarter haven’t paid off yet.

thunder-blue-3

Speaking from personal experience, many director-level and above positions at Intel, especially in growth related areas are filled through nepotism and professional connections. I've never seen a headline about Intel’s decline and thought, 'Wow, how could that happen?'

PaulHoule

I had a business partner that I agreed on a lot of things with but not about Intel. My assumption was that any small software package from Intel, such as a graph processing toolkit, was trash. He thought they could do no wrong.

Intel really is good at certain kinds of software like compilers or MKL but my belief is that organizations like that have a belief in their "number oneness" that gets in their way of doing anything that it outside what they're good at. Maybe it is the people, processes, organization, values, etc. that gets in the way. Or maybe not having the flexibility to know that what is good at task A is not good at task B.

f1shy

I saw always intel as a HW company making terribly bad SW. Anywhere I saw intel SW I would run away. Lately I used a big open source library from them, which is standard in the embedded space. Work great, but if you look the code you will be puking for a week.

throwaway2037

    > such as a graph processing toolkit
This is oddly specific. Can you share the exact Intel software toolkit?

    > "number oneness"
Why does this not affect NVidia, Amazon, Apple, or TSMC?

tharkun__

See the funny thing is, even with all of this stuff about Intel that I hear about (and agree with as reported), I also just committed a cardinal sin just recently.

I'm old, i.e. "never buy ATI" is something that I've stuck to since the very early Nvidia days. I.e. switched from Matrox and Voodoo to Nvidia while commiserating and witnessing friend's and colleagues ATI woes for years.

The high end gaming days are long gone, even had a time of laptops where 3D graphics was of no concern whatsoever. I happened to have Intel chips and integrated graphics. Could even start up some gaming I missed out on during the years or replay old favourites just fine as even a business laptop Intel integrated graphics chip was fine for it.

And then I bought an AMD based laptop with integrated Radeon graphics because of all that negative stuff you hear about Intel and AMD itself is fine, sometimes even better, so I thought it was fair to give it a try.

Oh my was that a mistake. AMD Radeon graphics is still the old ATI in full blown problem glory. I guess it's going to be another 25 years until I might make that mistake again.

vishnugupta

That’s not specific to Intel though. That’s how Directors and above are recruited in any big company.

For example, Uber hired a VP from Amazon. And the first thing he did was to hire most of his immediate reports at Amazon to Director/Senior Director positions at Uber.

At that level of management work gets done mostly through connections, favors and networking.

AtlasBarfed

Major companies like that become infected with large hierarchies of scum sucking middle management that eat revenue with bonuses.

Of course they are obsessed with shrinking labor costs and resisting all downsizing until it reaches comical levels.

Take a company like health insurance that can't show a large dividend because it would be a public relations disaster. Filled to the gills with vice presidents to suck up extra earnings. Or medical devices.

Software is also very difficult for these hierarchies of overpaid management, because you need to pay labor well to get good software, and the only raison d'etre of these guys is wage suppression.

Leadership is hard for these managers because the primary thing rewarded is middle management machiavellianism, turf wars, and domain building, and any visionary leadership or inspiration is quashed.

It almost fascinates me that large company organizations basically are like Soviet style communism, Even though there are opportunities for internal competition. Like data centers and hosting and it groups. They always need to be centralized for" efficiency".

Meanwhile, they are like 20 data centers and if you had each of them compete for the company's internal business, they'd all run more efficiently.

ethbr1

> it’s a regular occurrence for Intel to announce a bold new venture to try to claim some new territory, and just as regular that they announce they’re halting that venture in the name of “consolidating” and “focusing on their core.” [...] [Intel's new thing's] expected lifespan is shorter than the average Google product.

You got there in the end. You get the same outcome with the same corporate incentive.

Both Intel and Google prioritize {starting something new} over {growing an existing thing}, in terms of corporate promotions and rewards, and therefore employees and leaders self-optimize to produce the repeated behavior you see.

The way to fix this would be to decrease the rewards for starting a new thing and increase the rewards for evolving and growing an existing line of business.

throwaway2037

    > Both Intel and Google prioritize {starting something new} over {growing an existing thing}, in terms of corporate promotions and rewards, and therefore employees and leaders self-optimize to produce the repeated behavior you see.
I cannot speak for Intel, but Google has done very well by "growing an existing thing" in AdWords and YouTube. Both account for the lion's share of profits. They are absolute revenue giants. Many have tried, and failed to chip away at that lead, but Google has managed to adapt over and over again.

4gotunameagain

It is the only two things that google has regularly maintained, one of which with one of the biggest moats (youtube, the to go video service), and the other connected to the homepage of the internet.

It's really hard to fuck these things up. Which they have been trying hard, given the state of youtube and the search engine.

dylan604

It's similar to sales vs dev in software. Sales are always prioritizing new features to attract new users instead of fixing the known issues that are pissing off your current users.

New feature attracts new users and allows for fancy press releases. Nobody cares about press releases about an existing product getting a bug fix are become more stable.

Our society is nothing but "ooh look, shiny!" type of short attention span

nine_k

But, well, it was a ten-year bet: Altera was acquired in 2015.

If they could not figure how to make it profitable, maybe somebody else should try. (Of course I don't think that the PE company is going to do just that.)

wtallis

It was a ten-year bet, but they spent the first several years actively sabotaging Altera by trying to move their whole product stack over to non-functional Intel fabs.

iaresee

...and the majority of their internal development systems they used for all their chip design and layout.

dylan604

Doesn't purchase by a PE company pretty much guarantee the death of it? At least the selling off of the most profitable parts and pieces? Has there ever been a story of a PE purchase and the company grew under the new owner?

robert2020

PE’s buy companies to increase the company’s value then sell it. There’s been many successes. Powerschool, Hilton, Dunkin’ Brands, Dollar General, Beats by Dre, Petco, GoDaddy, BJ’s Wholesale Club, Neiman Marcus, Panera Bread, Allegro, Guitar Center, Nielsen, McAfee…

gonzo

Silver Lake took Dell private.

smallmancontrov

M&A churn is a way for management to monetize their power. Efficacy is a distant second concern.

kccqzy

How does management benefit from M&As? Sorry if this is a basic question. Do executives get paid based on the number of acquisitions?

stackskipton

Two ways:

Bonuses by juicing revenue numbers

Bigger next job by doing M&A and having really good-looking resume and interview story.

nine_k

If I hold stock in a company, then my company acquires that company, the stock rises, and I liquidate my position in it after 6 months or whatever the cool-down period is, is this considered insider trading?

jrockway

This seems to be common for corporate America in general. I used to work at a YC startup. We kiiiiiinda maaaaaaaybe ran out of money (not my department) and happened to get bought by a large investor that also happens to be a US-based hardware manufacturer. Two years and countless reorgs later, they laid everyone off and as far as I know, are no longer in the business of selling the software products they bought. They never figured out how software worked, never had anyone managining the division for more than 6 months, and got bored. I think they thought by moving everyone over to Microsoft Word and Windows laptops (peppered with a half-hearted threat about RTO), they would just magically make billions of dollars the first month. It didn't happen.

I am beginning to think M&A are just some sort of ego thing for bored megacorp execs, rather than serious attempts to add efficiency and value to the marketplace. (Prove me wrong, bored megacorp execs. I'll wait.)

aurumque

Having been through a few acquisitions myself, I think there is a perverse incentive where buying and destroying any competition (real or imagined) leads to positive enough outcomes that it doesn't matter if the underlying asset is destroyed. Nobody would come out and say that, but when an acquisition is tossed aside there may not be enough repercussions to prevent it from happening again.

tinco

Intel bought a drone company that was producing the only drone that was good enough for my real estate inspection company to use. They acquired it and then killed it a year or two after. The inspection industry didn't have a proper drone for years after that until DJI started getting serious about it and produced the M30E.

It was just senseless, Intel doesn't have real or imagined competition from a drone company, it wasn't even close to being in the same market. They just believed the hype about drones being the next big thing and when they found out they were too early they decided they didn't have the patience to wait for drones to become a thing and they killed it. There was no long term vision behind it.

timewizard

This is one of the main reasons we added anti monopoly provisions to our laws more than 100 years ago. Market dominance is a recognized factor in allowing this inversion of rewards to occur.

That's the face of it. Labor is a market as well. The impacts of these arrangements on our labor pool is extraordinary. It's a massive displaced cost of allowing these types of mergers to occur born out by the people who stand to gain the least from the merging of business assets.

ethbr1

> I am beginning to think M&A are just some sort of ego thing for bored megacorp execs

It seems like a low risk effort to put a promising inexperienced exec in charge of a recent acquisition.

If they're a screw up and run it into the ground, imagine how much damage they could have done in a megacorp position of power.

Megacorp saved (at the cost of a smaller company)

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WeylandYutani

Is Intel still a mega corporation? That seems to be the real problem for Intel. Becoming prey.

wmf

And Intel's acquisitions kill off promising startups. At least Altera is being sort of spun off instead of outright destroyed.

fredoralive

My personal theory is that desktop / laptop / server x86 (usually) is such a giant money printer that a) Intel can invest in anything (Altera, antivirus, Optane...) but b) when they do, they quickly realise that this isn't a giant profit margin machine like x86, so why bother?

bigfatkitten

They fuck their customers when they do that. A good friend of mine had a product designed around Quark that was about to go into production when Intel pulled the rug out from under him.

thot_experiment

Rest in Peace Altera I guess? I still drink out of my color changing Altera mug (that's long stopped changing color) most days. PE ruins everything so it's only a matter of time before they're gutted and sold for scraps by the vultures at Silver Lake. (though honestly the writing was on the wall since the Intel acquisition I had held onto some hope) If only we had a functioning government interested in actually maintaining our technological dominance and enforcing/expanding antitrust legislation. I wrote my first Verilog on an Altera chip and I'll remember them fondly.

neilv

> [...] my color changing Altera mug (that's long stopped changing color) most days. PE ruins everything [...]

I don't think PE is responsible for that one.

thot_experiment

I think your attention heads might not be reading the positional encoding quite right. :P

jhallenworld

Mug? Well I got a Cubic Cyclonium- annoyingly no current tools support it and even the last version which did is no longer available.

https://datasheet.octopart.com/CUBIC-CYCLONIUM-Altera-datash...

greenavocado

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jcranmer

Tariffs done well could be a boon for a sector. But they are tricky to do well, and the current administration doesn't show the slightest hint of being capable of doing it well.

You have to treat tariffs not as a moat to protect an industry for good, but a runway to give a nascent industry enough room to take off. In a mature industry, tariffs are more likely to keep incumbents uncompetitive and disincentivize investments that would make them more competitive, especially if those are capital-heavy.

Also, tariffs aren't going to be effective if other structural issues exist in an industry that prevent or sharply limit expansion. Like key components having a sole worldwide supplier with a full order book. Or if capital investment to set up a new factory are beyond the ability of the financial markets to provide.

kristjansson

Yes a competent and forward-looking trade and industrial policy would be nice, as a treat.

9283409232

I don't think people are opposed to tariffs, at least they weren't before. Bernie Sanders has historically been for tariffs when used properly. Used properly being the important phrase. When you have someone who doesn't understand what a trade deficit is imposing tariffs based on the difference between deficit and surplus, you pretty effectively turn people against tariffs on top of the whole destroying the global economy thing.

dingnuts

No, the issue is not that Trump doesn't have the appropriate understanding. The issue is that they are illegal tariffs.

The President does not have the power to create tariffs. Congress does!

The reason the President doesn't have this power is because the economy should not rest on the whims or understanding of any one person.

knowaveragejoe

This comment is textbook Poe's Law.

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hiddencost

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greenavocado

There is no need to resort to personal attacks

d-moon

As someone who's worked at Xilinx before and after the merger, it's a surprise they were even able to sell it for that much. Altera has been noncompetitive to Xilinx in performance and to Lattice in terms of low-end/low-power offerings for at least the last 2 generations.

I'm concerned about the future of FPGAs and wonder who will lead the way to fix these abhorrent toolchains these FPGA companies force upon developers.

hermitShell

Agree on both. As things like the PIO on the rp line of micros gets more common, micros will have IO that can match FPGAs. For low end, micros are generally good enough or gain NPU compute cores. It’s the IO that differentiates FPGAs.

HelloNurse

So Intel found optimists who think they can make Altera more competitive? It's a success. Success with Intel products would be better, and excellence at M&A is hard to convert into excellence at chipmaking, but it's better than nothing.

gscott

It seems FPGA can now do things for LLM's so there might be some future in that

https://www.achronix.com/blog/accelerating-llm-inferencing-f...

throwaway48476

Its never going to be as efficient as ASIC and the LLM market is definitely big enough for ASICs to be viable.

lesuorac

This is past tense no?

There's been neural processing chips since before LLM craze [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_processing_unit#History

imtringued

I hear this a lot, but in my experience this isn't true at all.

A Versal AI Edge FPGA has a theoretical performance of 0.7TFLOPs just from the DSPs alone, while consuming less power than a Raspberry Pi 5 and this is ignoring the AI Engines, which are exactly the ASICs that you are talking about. They are more power efficient than GPUs, because they don't need to pretend to run multiple threads each with their own register files or hide memory latency by swapping warps. Their 2D NOC plus cascaded connections allow them to have a really high internal memory bandwidth in-between the tiles at low power.

What they are missing is processing in memory, specifically LPDDR-PIM for GEMV acceleration. The memory controllers simply can't deliver a memory bandwidth that is competitive with what Nvidia has and I'm talking about boards like Jetson Orin here.

teleforce

If LLM can leverage on the new efficient attention mechanism based the FFT architecture discovered by Google then FPGA can be the new hot stuff [1]:

[1] The FFT Strikes Back: An Efficient Alternative to Self-Attention (168 comments):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43182325

snvzz

>wonder who will lead the way to fix these abhorrent toolchains these FPGA companies force upon developers.

Some FPGA vendors are contributing to and relying, partially or completely, on the open source stack (mainly yosys+nextpnr).

It is still perceived as not being "as good" as the universally hated proprietary tools, but it's getting there.

saboot

This has piqued my interest, which vendors are using an open source stack?

almostgotcaught

You worked at Xilinx and you're not aware that FPGA is not a growing segment?

throwaway2037

    > FPGA is not a growing segment
What is replacing it? Single board computers? Or are APUs from ARM "good enough" and "cheap enough" now to replace FPGA?

almostgotcaught

There is literally no market for FPGA as coprocessor/accelerator and there never was (that was some kind of pipe/hype dream before GPGPU took off). Where there is a market for them (prototyping ASICs, automotive, whatever, network switches, etc) there is no replacement but there is also no growth.

imtringued

Yeah I personally wondered if AMD was just copying Intel, because apparently every CPU manufacturer also needs to manufacture FPGAs, or they actually have a long term strategy where it is essential for both the FPGA and CPU departments to cooperate.

I think Xilinx did a fine job with their AI Engines and AMD decided to integrate a machine learning focused variant on their laptops as a result. The design of the intel NPU is nowhere near as good as AMD's. I have to say that AMD is not a software company though and while the hardware is interesting, their software support is nonexistent.

Also, if you're worried about FPGAs that doesn't really make much sense, since Effinix is killing it.

opello

I briefly hoped that, like the integration of GPUs, there would be a broader integration of programmable logic in general purpose CPUs, with AMD integrating Xilinx fabric and Intel integrating Altera fabric. But I could never imagine a real use case and apparently there wasn't a marketable enough one either. Something like high-level synthesis ending up like CUDA always seemed like it would present a neat development environment for certain optimizations.

nickpsecurity

I wanted that, too. Then, integrated with something like Synflow:

https://www.synflow.com/

tliltocatl

Altera toolchain was a tad nicer than xilinx as of 2020, just saying. Still horrible, but at least the IDE wasn't a laggy Electron abomination.

aswanson

Alteras tools seemed more civilized than Xilinx's, in my limited experience.

svnt

For those keeping score at home, 51% sold at a total valuation of $8.75B, which means they are bringing in around $4.5B, and recognizing a loss of roughly 50% on what was their biggest deal ever when it took place in 2015.

Jach

"In December 2015, Intel acquired Altera for $16.7 billion in cash." $21.5 bn inflation adjusted. Amazing ten year performance.

addaon

Sure, it was down 60%. But the real question is whether it outperformed Intel as a whole, and outperformed other internal investments Intel could make. I certainly wouldn't think that a 2015 dollar anywhere else within Intel is worth more than 40¢ today, given how they've been running.

janalsncm

Just to put numbers to it, Intel was $34 in 2016. It’s $20 now. So a dollar in Intel in 2016 would be worth 59 cents today.

ETA they also paid out almost $10 in dividends.

scottyah

Or they got what they wanted from it and are selling off the rest, like when Google bought Motorola Wireless for the Patents then sold off the non-googly employees, culture, and brand for cheap.

blitzar

> sold off the non-googly employees

Ouch - your work is so good we will pay 10x what it is worth, because we are not good enough to do it.

But you are not good enough for us. Maybe they couldn't a binary tree.

Jach

Man I remember being excited when Intel bought Altera, maybe they'd bring FPGAs to the masses, then they proceeded to do nothing with them...

jeffparsons

I was excited, too. I was also excited when Intel announced Larrabee.

That was before I learnt about the many and varied ways in which Intel sabotages itself, and released that Intel's underperformance has little to do with a lack of good technical ideas or talent.

I.e. I was young and naive. I am now considerably less young, and at least a little less naive.

bigfatkitten

It was a silly acquisition in the first place, and their justification clearly came from a coke-addled fever dream.

Intel soon discovered the obvious, which is that customers with applications well-suited to FPGAs already use FPGAs.

danielmarkbruce

There was some hope at the time that FPGAs could be used in a lot more applications in the data center. It is likely still feasible. Remember Hennessy published:

https://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~wl/teachlocal/arch/papers/cacm19go...

And maybe this is/was a pipe dream - maybe there aren't enough people with the skills to have a "golden age of architecture". But MSFT was deploying FPGAs in the data center and there were certainly hopes and dreams this would become a big thing.

bigfatkitten

That was certainly the dream, but unfortunately for them it didn't turn out to be a new market.

danielmarkbruce

I don't know enough about hardware to know why - why didn't this story play out as hoped?

matt3210

It made their stock pop for a while which was all that mattered to Brian Krzanich who took the bonus and left the mess in the hands of Bob Swan who did the same things and left the mess ... (recursion her).

dbuder

It was a forced acquisition, iirc they made promises to Altera to get them to use their foundry, failed to keep those promises and could either get sued and embarrassed or just buy Altera outright for about what they were worth before the deal.

nativeit

> Intel soon discovered the obvious, which is that customers with applications well-suited to FPGAs already use FPGAs.

So selling FPGA's was a bad move? Or was the purchase price just wildly out-of-line with the--checking...$9.8B annual market that's expected to rise to $23.3B by 2030?

bcrl

Intel can't even act as a functional foundry for internal customers.

komadori

Do you think AMD's decision to buy Xilinx was any better or not?

Alupis

Perhaps we can say it was less of a distraction for AMD, given AMD is not having the basic execution issue that Intel is currently suffering.

rcxdude

And less disastrous for Xilinx, given they could basically just keep going as they were before, instead of being significantly diverted onto a sinking ship of a process.

georgeburdell

If AMD did the same thing years later, was it really that foolish?

stonogo

Yes, because AMD is fabless, and Xilinx didn't suddenly have to figure out how to work around Intel's production problems.

mschuster91

> Intel soon discovered the obvious, which is that customers with applications well-suited to FPGAs already use FPGAs.

Yes, but pairing an FPGA somewhat tightly integrated with an actually powerful x86 CPU would have made an interesting alternative to the usual FPGA+some low end ARM combo that's common these days.

michaelt

Sure, if they wanted to intel could have done what nvidia did with CUDA: Put the tech into everything, even their lowest end consumer devices, and sink hundreds of millions into tooling and developer education given away free of charge.

And maybe it would have lead somewhere. Perhaps. But they didn't.

danielmarkbruce

It was the thought at the time that they'd do this. It's amazing that they don't seem to have actually tried ? Any sense as to why or what went wrong?

marcosdumay

Yes, if they actually made the thing available, maybe people would have used it for something. There were several proofs of concept at the time, with some serious gains, ever for the uses that people ended up using CUDA.

But they didn't actually sell it. At least not in any form anybody could buy. So, yeah, we get the OP claiming it was an obvious technological dead-end.

And if they included it on lower-end chips (the ones they sold just a few years after they brought Altera), we could have basically what the RasPI 2040 is nowadays. Just a decade earlier and controlled by them... On a second thought, maybe this was for the best.

bigfatkitten

Applications that benefit from the Zynq-style combination (e.g. radio systems) generally take that approach because they have SWaP concerns that preclude the use of big x86 CPUs in the first place.

snihalani

What's a SWaP concern?

dtquad

GPGPUs ended up becoming the AI/cloud accelerators that FPGAs promised to be back when Intel bought Altera.

FPGAs are not ideal for raw parallel number crunching like in AI/LLMs. They are more appropriate for predictable real-time/ultra-low-latency parallel things like the the modulation and demodulation of signals in 5G base state stations.

AlotOfReading

FPGAs might not be ideal, but AMD's NPU IP originated with Xilinx.

Intel was an early player to so many massive industries (e.g. XScale, GPGPU, hybrid FPGA SoCs). Intel abandoned all of them prematurely and has been left playing catch-up every time. We might be having a very different discussion if literally any of them had succeeded.

coredog64

XScale was forced on Intel as a penalty for anticompetitive activities against Digital. It’s no surprise then that they weren’t interested in doing anything with it.

ACAVJW4H

Quick search shows Altera held 30% of the FPGA market. That puts AMD’s $50B acquisition of Xilinx (which holds ~50% of the market) in an awkward light. Using some extremely crude math, Xilinx’s fair market value might now be closer to ~$15B.

Did AMD massively overpay, or has the FPGA market fundamentally shifted? Curious to see how this new benchmark ripples into AMD’s stock valuation.

fuzzythinker

Not all market share are equal, like iphone vs. android. Also, the value for the leader will cost more than the second in line.

timewizard

The FPGA market shifted. For a brief moment they were allowed to be on BOMs of end user devices due to the rest of the computing field lagging behind somewhat. That period, as far as I can tell, is over.

My anecdotal example would be high end broadcast audio processors. These do quite a bit beyond the actual processing of audio, in particular, into baseband or even RF signal generation.

In any case these devices used to be fully analog, then when they first went digital were a combination of DSPs for processing and FPGAs for signal output. Later generations dropped the DSP and did everything in larger FPGAs as the larger FPGAs became available. Later generations dropped the whole stack and just run on an 8 core Intel processor using real time linux and some specialized real time signal processing software with custom designed signal generators.

The high core and high frequency CPUs became good enough and getting custom made chips became exceptionally cheap as well. FPGAs became rather pointless in this pipline.

The US military, for a time, had a next generation radio specification that specifically called for the use of FPGAs, as that would allow them to make manufacturer agnostic radios and custom software for them. That never panned out but it shows the peak use of FPGAs to manage the constraints of this time period.

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mastax

Intel acquired Altera in December 2015 for $16.7 billion in cash.

nativeit

If only someone could have come up with a plausibly profitable use-case for advanced FPGA's and highly performant, efficient, real-time processing or hardware acceleration in those intervening years? What are ya gonna do?

xadhominemx

Well the thesis was DC accelerators but the world went with ASSPs.

BobbyTables2

Bravo, they managed to break even on their decade-old investment.

Should have stuffed it under the bed instead…

mmmBacon

When Intel acquired Altera, Altera’s market share was at 36% and Xilinx at 51%. Today Xilinx remains at ~50% while Altera’s share has dropped to 29%. Altera has lost share to Microchip and Lattice.

I’ve said it before, Intel is where technology companies go to die. Fortunately while Altera is probably a mess of useless Intel drone MBAs, there’s a decent core that can be salvaged. Best of luck to them.

rsp1984

Should change title. They sold 51% at a valuation of $8.75B, so cash in is ~ $4.29B.

voxadam

I've updated the title as best as I could within the constraints of the max length.

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