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What Is Entropy?

What Is Entropy?

118 comments

·April 14, 2025

quietbritishjim

I like the axiomatic definition of entropy. Here's the introduction from Pattern Recognition and Machine Learning by C. Bishop (2006):

> The amount of information can be viewed as the ‘degree of surprise’ on learning the value of x. If we are told that a highly improbable event has just occurred, we will have received more information than if we were told that some very likely event has just occurred, and if we knew that the event was certain to happen we would receive no information. Our measure of information content will therefore depend on the probability distribution p(x), and we therefore look for a quantity h(x) that is a monotonic function of the probability p(x) and that expresses the information content. The form of h(·) can be found by noting that if we have two events x and y that are unrelated, then the information gain from observing both of them should be the sum of the information gained from each of them separately, so that h(x, y) = h(x) + h(y). Two unrelated events will be statistically independent and so p(x, y) = p(x)p(y). From these two relationships, it is easily shown that h(x) must be given by the logarithm of p(x) and so we have h(x) = − log2 p(x).

This is the definition of information for a single probabilistic event. The definition of entropy of a random variable follows from this by just taking the expectation.

dkislyuk

This is a great characterization of self-information. I would add that the `log` term doesn't just conveniently appear to satisfy the additivity axiom, but instead is the exact historical reason why it was invented in the first place. As in, the log function was specifically defined to find a family of functions that satisfied f(xy) = f(x) + f(y).

So, self-information is uniquely defined by (1) assuming that information is a function transform of probability, (2) that no information is transmitted for an event that certainly happens (i.e. f(1) = 0), and (3) independent information is additive. h(x) = -log p(x) is the only set of functions that satisfies all of these properties.

diego898

Thanks for this! I read this paper/derivation/justification once in grad school but I can’t now find the reference - do you have one?

tshaddox

According to my perhaps naive interpretation of that, the "degree of surprise" would depend on at least three things:

1. the laws of nature (i.e. how accurately do the laws of physics permit measuring the system and how determined are future states based on current states)

2. one's present understanding of the laws of nature

3. one's ability to measure the state of a system accurately and compute the predictions in practice

It strikes me as odd to include 2 and 3 in a definition of "entropy."

tmalsburg2

OP is talking about information entropy. Nature isn't relevant there.

tshaddox

Surely laws of nature are still relevant since they (presumably) establish limits on how closely a system can be measured and which physical interactions can be simulated by computers (and how accurately).

overu589

How can that be axiomatic?

I offer a coherent, concise dissenting view.

Information is the removal of uncertainty. If it does not remove uncertainty it is not information. Uncertainty is state unresolved (potential resolves to state through constructive and destructive interference.)

Entropy is the existential phenomenon of potential distributing over the infinite manifold of negative potential. “Uncertainty.”

Emergence is a potential outcome greater than the capacity found in the sum of any parts.

Modern humanity’s erroneous extrapolations:

- asserting P>=0 without account that in existential reality 0 is the infinite expanse of cosmic void, thus the true mathematical description would be P>=-1

- confuse heat with entropy. Heat is the ultimate universal expression as heat is a product of all work and all existence is winding down (after all). Entropy directs thermodynamics, thermodynamics is not the extent of entropy.

- entropy is NOT the number of possible states in a system. Entropy is the distribution of potential; number of states are boundary conditions which uncalculated potential may reconfigure (the “cosmic ray” or murfy’s rule of component failure.) Existential reality is interference and decay.

- entropy is not “loss”. Loss is the entropy less work achieved.

- this business about “in a closed system “ is an example of how brilliant minds lie to themselves. No such thing exists anywhere accessible by Man. Even theoretically, the principles of decay and the “exogenous” influence of one impercieved influence over a “contained system.” Or “modeled system”, for one self deception is for the scientist or engineer to presume these speak for or on behalf of reality.

Emergence is the potential (the vector space of some capacity) “created” through some system of dynamics (work). “Some” includes the expressive space of all existential or theoretical reality. All emergent potential is “paid for” by burning available potential of some other kind. In nature the natural forces induce work in their extremes. In natural systems these design for the “mitigation of uncertainty” [soft form entropy], aka “intelligence.”

Entropy is the existential phenomenon of potential distributing over negative potential.

Information is the removal of uncertainty. If it does not remove uncertainty, it is not information. (And intelligence is the mitigation of uncertainty.)

Emergence is a potential outcome greater than the capacity found in the sum of any parts.

TexanFeller

I don’t see Sean Carroll’s musings mentioned yet, so repeating my previous comment:

Entropy got a lot more exciting to me after hearing Sean Carroll talk about it. He has a foundational/philosophical bent and likes to point out that there are competing definitions of entropy set on different philosophical foundations, one of them seemingly observer dependent: - https://youtu.be/x9COqqqsFtc?si=cQkfV5IpLC039Cl5 - https://youtu.be/XJ14ZO-e9NY?si=xi8idD5JmQbT5zxN

Leonard Susskind has lots of great talks and books about quantum information and calculating the entropy of black holes which led to a lot of wild new hypotheses.

Stephen Wolfram gave a long talk about the history of the concept of entropy which was pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/live/ocOHxPs1LQ0?si=zvQNsj_FEGbTX2R3

infogulch

Half a year after that talk Wolfram appeared on a popular podcast [1] to discuss his book on the Second Law of Thermodynamics [2]. That discussion contained the best one-sentence description of entropy I've ever heard:

> Entropy is the logarithm of the number of states that are consistent with what you know about a system.

[1]: Mystery of Entropy FINALLY Solved After 50 Years? (Stephen Wolfram) - Machine Learning Street Talk Podcast - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpDjd2nHgo

[2]: The Second Law: Resolving the Mystery of the Second Law of Thermodynamics - https://www.amazon.com/Second-Law-Resolving-Mystery-Thermody...

frank20022

By that definition, the entropy of a game of chess decreases with time because as the game moves on there are less possible legal states. Did I get that right?

infogulch

Sure. Lots of games result in a reduction in game state entropy as the game progresses. Many card games could be described as unnecessarily complicated ways to sort a deck, as an example. When analyzing games wrt the Second Law, consider that "the system" is not simply the current game state, but should at least include captured pieces and human choices.

dist-epoch

Is about subjective knowledge, not objective.

So entropy is not related to the number of remaining legal states.

If I know the seed of a PRNG, the entropy of the numbers it generates is zero for me. If I don't know the seed, it has very high entropy.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/what-is-entropy-a-measure-of-...

gsf_emergency

By Jeeves, it's rentropy!!

Sean and Stephen are absolutely thoughtful popularizers, but complexity, not entropy, is what they are truly interested in talking about.

Although it doesn't make complexity less scary, here's something Sean's been working on for more than a decade. The paper seems to be more accessible to the layman than he thinks..

https://arxiv.org/abs/1405.6903 https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=762

[When practitioners say "entropy", they mean RELATIVE ENTROPY, which is another can of worms.. rentropy is the one that is observer dependent: "That's Relative as in Relativity". Entropy by itself is simple, blame von Neumann for making it live rent-free]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_entropy

@nyrikki below hints (too softly, imho) at this:

>You can also approach the property that people often want to communicate when using the term entropy as effective measure 0 sets, null cover, martingales, kolmogorov complexity, compressibility, set shattering, etc...

null

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nihakue

I'm not in any way qualified to have a take here, but I have one anyway:

My understanding is that entropy is a way of quantifying how many different ways a thing could 'actually be' and yet still 'appear to be' how it is. So it is largely a result of an observer's limited ability to perceive / interrogate the 'true' nature of the system in question.

So for example you could observe that a single coin flip is heads, and entropy will help you quantify how many different ways that could have come to pass. e.g. is it a fair coin, a weighted coin, a coin with two head faces, etc. All these possibilities increase the entropy of the system. An arrangement _not_ counted towards the system's entropy is the arrangement where the coin has no heads face, only ever comes up tails, etc.

Related, my intuition about the observation that entropy tends to increase is that it's purely a result of more likely things happening more often on average.

Would be delighted if anyone wanted to correct either of these intuitions.

tshaddox

> My understanding is that entropy is a way of quantifying how many different ways a thing could 'actually be' and yet still 'appear to be' how it is. So it is largely a result of an observer's limited ability to perceive / interrogate the 'true' nature of the system in question.

When ice cubes in a glass of water slowly melt, and the temperature of the liquid water decreases, where does the limited ability of an observer come into play?

It seems to me that two things in this scenario are true:

1) The fundamental physical interactions (i.e. particle collisions) are all time-reversible, and no observer of any one such interaction would be able to tell which directly time is flowing.

2) The states of the overall system are not time-reversible.

CaptainNegative

The temperature of an object is a macroscopic property basically depending on the kinetic energy of the matter within it, which in a typical cup of water varies substantially from one molecule to the next. If before you could guess a little bit about the kinetic energy of a given water molecule based on whether it is part of the ice or not, after melting and sufficient time to equilibrate the location of a particular molecule gives you no additional information for estimating its velocity.

dynm

It's tricky when you think of a continuous system because the "differential entropy" is different (and more subtle) than the "entropy". Even if a system is time-reversible, the "measure" of a set of states can change.

For example: Say I'm at some distance from you, between 0 and 1 km (all equiprobable). Now I switch to being 10x as far away. This is time-reversible, but because the volume of the set of states changed, the differential entropy changes. This is the kind of thing that happens in time-reversible continuous systems that can't happen in time-reversible discrete systems.

jdhwosnhw

I have yet to see differential entropy used successfully (beyond its explicitly constructed-for purpose for calculating channel capacity). Similar to your thought experiment is the issue that the differential entropy value depends on your choice of unit system. Fundamentally the issue is that you cant stick a quantity with units into a transcendental function and get meaningful results out

im3w1l

Isn't that kind of what we want entropy to capture though? If a particle darts off into the distance then in theory it might be time reversible, but in practice it's not so simple. If the particle escapes the gravitational pull, the only way it can come back is if it bumps into some other object and pushes that object away. So things will inevitably spread out more and more creating an arrow of time.

This can then be related to the big bang, and maybe it could be said that we are all living of the negentropy from that event and the subsequent expansion.

Getting different entropy values based on choice of units is a very nasty property though. It kinda hints that there is one canonical correct unit (plank length?)

thawtxp

[dead]

fsckboy

>purely a result of more likely things happening more often on average

according to your wording, no. if you have a perfect six sided die (or perfect two sided coin), none/neither of the outcomes are more likely at any point in time... yet something approximating entropy occurs after many repeated trials. what's expected to happen is the average thing even though it's never the most likely thing to happen.

you want to look at how repeated re-convolution of a function with itself always converges on the same gaussian function, no matter the shape of the starting function is (as long as it's not some pathological case, such as an impulse function... but even then, consider the convolution of the impulse function with the gaussian)

russdill

This is based on entropy being closely tied to your knowledge of the system. It's one of many useful definitions of entropy.

867-5309

> 'actually be' and yet still 'appear to be'

esse quam videri

asdf_snar

I throw these quotes by Y. Oono into the mix because they provide viewpoints which are in some tension with those who take -\sum_x p(x) log p(x) definition of entropy as fundamental.

> Boltzmann’s argument summarized in Exercise of 2.4.11 just derives Shannon’s formula and uses it. A major lesson is that before we use the Shannon formula important physics is over.

> There are folklores in statistical mechanics. For example, in many textbooks ergodic theory and the mechanical foundation of statistical mechanics are discussed even though detailed mathematical explanations may be missing. We must clearly recognize such topics are almost irrelevant to statistical mechanics. We are also brainwashed that statistical mechanics furnishes the foundation of thermodynamics, but we must clearly recognize that without thermodynamics statistical mechanics cannot be formulated. It is a naive idea that microscopic theories are always more fundamental than macroscopic phenomenology.

sources: http://www.yoono.org/download/inst.pdf http://www.yoono.org/download/smhypers12.pdf

xavivives

Over the last few months, I've been developing an unorthodox perspective on entropy [1] . It defines the phenomenon in much more detail, allowing for a unification of all forms of entropy. It also defines probability through the same lens.

I define both concepts fundamentally in relation to priors and possibilities:

- Entropy is the relationship between priors and ANY possibility, relative to the entire space of possibilities.

- Probability is the relationship between priors and a SPECIFIC possibility, relative to the entire space of possibilities.

The framing of priors and possibilities shows why entropy appears differently across disciplines like statistical mechanics and information theory. Entropy is not merely observer-dependent, but prior-dependent. Including priors not held by any specific observer but embedded in the framework itself. This helps resolve the apparent contradiction between objective and subjective interpretations of entropy.

It also defines possibilities as constraints imposed on an otherwise unrestricted reality. This framing unifies how possibility spaces are defined across frameworks.

[1]: https://buttondown.com/themeaninggap/archive/a-unified-persp...

3abiton

I am curious why the word "entropy" encompasses so many concepts? Wouldn't it have made sense to just give each concept a different word?

namaria

Yes. There are different concepts called 'entropy', sometimes merely because their mathematical formulation looks very similar.

It means different things in different contexts and an abstract discussion of the term is essentially meaningless.

Even discussions within the context of the second law of thermodynamics are often misleading because people ignore much of the context in which the statistical framing of the law was formulated. Formal systems and all that... These are not general descriptions of how nature works, but formal systems definitions that allow for some calculations.

I find the study of symmetries by Noether much more illuminating in general than trying to generalize conservation laws as observed within certain formal models.

prof-dr-ir

Whenever there is an entropy, it can be defined as

S = - sum_n p_n log( p_n )

where the p_n is a probability distribution: for n = 1...W, p_n >= 0 and sum_n p_n = 1. This is always the underlying equation, the only thing that changes is the probability distribution.

glial

One thing that helped me was the realization that, at least as used in the context of information theory, entropy is a property of an individual (typically the person receiving a message) and NOT purely of the system or message itself.

> entropy quantifies uncertainty

This sums it up. Uncertainty is the property of a person and not a system/message. That uncertainty is a function of both a person's model of a system/message and their prior observations.

You and I may have different entropies about the content of the same message. If we're calculating the entropy of dice rolls (where the outcome is the 'message'), and I know the dice are loaded but you don't, my entropy will be lower than yours.

Geee

It's both. The system or process has it's actual entropy, and the sequence of observations we make has a certain entropy. We can say that "this sequence of numbers has this entropy", which is slightly different from the entropy of the process which created the numbers. For example, when we make more coin tosses, our sequence of observations has an entropy which gets closer and closer to the actual entropy of the coin.

ninetyninenine

Not true. The uncertainty of the dice rolls is not controlled by you. It is the property of the loaded dice itself.

Here's a better way to put it. If I roll the dice infinite times. The uncertainty of the outcome of the dice will become evident in the distribution of the outcomes of the dice. Whether you or another person is certain or uncertain of this does not indicate anything.

Now when you realize this you'll start to think about this thing in probability called frequentists vs. bayesian and you'll realize that all entropy is, is a consequence of probability and that the philosophical debate in probability applies to entropy as well because they are one and the same.

I think the word "entropy" confuses people into thinking it's some other thing when really it's just probability at work.

glial

I concede that my framing was explicitly Bayesian, but with that caveat, it absolutely is true: your uncertainty is a function of your knowledge, which is a model of the world, but is not equivalent to the world itself.

Suppose I had a coin that only landed on heads. You don't know this and you flip the coin. According to your argument, for the first flip, your entropy about the outcome of the flip is zero. However, you wouldn't be able to tell me which way the coin would land, making your entropy nonzero. This is a contradiction.

nyrikki

To add to this.

Both the Bayesian vs frequentist interpretations make understanding the problem challenging, as both are powerful interpretations to find the needle in the haystack, when the problem is finding the hay in the haystack.

A better lens is that a recursive binary sequence (coin flips) is an algorithmically random sequence if and only if it is a Chaitin's number.[1]

Chaitin's number is normal, which is probably easier understood with decimal digits meaning that with any window size, over time the distribution, the distribution of 0-9 will be the same.

This is why HALT ≈ open frame ≈ system identification ≈ symbol grounding problems.

Probabilities are very powerful for problems like The dining philosophers problem or the Byzantine generals problem, they are still grabbing needles every time they reach into the hay stack.

Pretty much any almost all statement is a hay in the haystack problem. For example almost all real numbers are normal, but we have only found a few.

We can construct them, say with .101010101 in base 2 .123123123123 in base 3 etc...but we can't access them.

Given access to the true reals, you have 0 percent chance of picking a computable number, rational, etc... but a 100% chance of getting a normal number or 100% chance of getting an uncomputable number.

Bayesian vs frequentist interpretations allow us to make useful predictions, but they are the map, not the territory.

Bayesian iid data and Frequentist iid random variables play the exact similar roles Enthalpy, Gibbs free energy, statistical entropy, information theory entropy, Shannon Entropy etc...

The difference between them is the independent variables that they depend on and the needs of the model they are serving.

You can also approach the property that people often want to communicate when using the term entropy as effective measure 0 sets, null cover, martingales, kolmogorov complexity, compressibility, set shattering, etc...

As a lens, null cover is most useful in my mind, as a random real number should not have any "uncommon" properties, or look more like the normal reals.

This is very different from statistical methods, or any effective usable algorithm/program, which absolutely depend on "uncommon" properties.

Which is exactly the hay in the problem of finding the hay haystack problem, hay is boring.

[1]https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~cristian/samplepapers/omegast...

bloppe

Probability is subjective though, because macrostates are subjective.

The notion of probability relies on the notion of repeatability: if you repeat a coin flip infinite times, what proportion of outcomes will be heads, etc. But if you actually repeated the toss exactly the same way every time, say with a finely-tuned coin-flipping machine in a perfectly still environment, you would always get the same result.

We say that a regular human flipping a coin is a single macrostate that represents infinite microstates (the distribution of trajectories and spins you could potentially impart on the coin). But who decides that? Some subjective observer. Another finely tuned machine could conceivably detect the exact trajectory and spin of the coin as it leaves your thumb and predict with perfect accuracy what the outcome will be. According to that machine, you're not repeating anything. You're doing a new thing every time.

canjobear

Probability is a bunch of numbers that add to 1. Sometimes you can use this to represent subjective beliefs. Sometimes you can use it to represent objectively existing probability distributions. For example, an LLM is a probability distribution on a following token given previous tokens. If two "observers" disagree about an LLM's probability assigned to some token, then only at most one of them can be correct. So the probability is objective.

quietbritishjim

You're right it reduces to Bayesian vs frequentist views of probability. But you seem to be taking an adamantly frequentist view yourself.

Imagine you're not interested in whether a dice is weighted (in fact assume that it is fair in every reasonable sense), but instead you want to know the outcome of a specific roll. What if that roll has already happened, but you haven't seen it? I've cheekily covered up the dice with my hand straight after I rolled it. It's no longer random at all, in at least some philosophical points of view, because its outcome is now 100% determined. If you're only concerned about "the property of the dice itself" are you now only concerned with the property of the roll itself? It's done and dusted. So the entropy of that "random variable" (which only has one outcome, of probability 1) is 0.

This is actually a valid philosophical point of view. But people that act as though the outcome is still random, allow themselves to use probability theory as if it hadn't been rolled yet, are going to win a lot more games of chance than those that refuse to.

Maybe this all seems like a straw man. Have I argued against anything you actually said in your post? Yes I have: your core disagreement with OP's statement "entropy is a property of an individual". You see, when I covered up the dice with my hand, I did see it. So if you take the Bayesian view of probability and allow yourself to consider that dice roll probabilistically, then you and I really do have different views about the probability distribution of that dice roll and therefore the entropy. If I tell a third person, secretly and honestly, that the dice roll is even then they have yet another view of the entropy of the same dice roll! All at the same time and all perfectly valid.

empath75

> If we're calculating the entropy of dice rolls (where the outcome is the 'message'), and I know the dice are loaded but you don't, my entropy will be lower than yours.

That's got nothing to do with entropy being subjective. If 2 people are calculating any property and one of them is making a false assumption, they'll end up with a different (false) conclusion.

mitthrowaway2

What if I told you the dice were loaded, but I didn't tell you which face they were loaded in favor of?

Then you (presumably) assign a uniform probability over one true assumption and five false assumptions. Which is the sort of situation where subjective entropy seems quite appropriate.

glial

Entropy is based on your model of the world and every model, being a simplification and an estimate, is false.

canjobear

> If 2 people are calculating any property and one of them is making a false assumption, they'll end up with a different (false) conclusion.

This implies that there is an objectively true conclusion. The true probability is objective.

mitthrowaway2

Ok. I rolled a die and the result was 5. What should the true objective probability have been for the outcome of that roll?

pharrington

Are you basically just saying "we're not oracles"?

hatthew

I'm not sure I understand the distinction between "high-entropy macrostate" and "order". Aren't macrostates just as subjective as order? Let's say my friend's password is 6dVcOgm8. If we have a system whose microstate consists of an arbitrary string of alphanumeric characters, and the system arranges itself in the configuration 6dVcOgm8, then I would describe the macrostate as "random" and "disordered". However, if my friend sees that configuration, they would describe the macrostate as "my password" and "ordered".

If we see another configuration M2JlH8qc, I would say that the macrostate is the same, it's still "random" and "unordered", and my friend would agree. I say that both macrostates are the same: "random and unordered", and there are many microstates that could be called that, so therefore both are microstates representing the same high-entropy macrostate. However, my friend sees the macrostates as different: one is "my password and ordered", and the other is "random and unordered". There is only one microstate that she would describe as "my password", so from her perspective that's a low-entropy macrostate, while they would agree with me that M2JlH8qc represents a high-entropy macrostate.

So while I agree that "order" is subjective, isn't "how many microstates could result in this macrostate" equally subjective? And then wouldn't it be reasonable to use the words "order" and "disorder" to count (in relative terms) how many microstates could result in the macrostate we subjectively observe?

vzqx

I think you need to rigorously define your macrostates. If your two states are "my friend's password" and "not my friend's password" then the macrostates are perfectly objective. You don't know what macrostate the system is in, but that doesn't change the fact that the system is objectively in one of those two macrostates.

If you define your macrostates using subjective terms (e.g. "a string that's meaningful to me" or "a string that looks ordered to me") then yeah, your entropy calculations will be subjective.

hatthew

I guess part of my question is, are there any macrostates that are useful to us that can't be described using more abstract human-subjective terms? If a macrostate can be described using human terms, I'd say the state is somewhat ordered. And if a state can't be described using human terms, then wouldn't it be indistinguishable from "particle soup" and thus not a useful macrostate to talk about?

anon84873628

That's better than how I was going to say it:

In one case you're looking at the system as "alphanumeric string of length N." In another, the system is that plus something like "my friend's opinion on the string".

Also, as the article says, using "entropy" to mean "order" is not a good practice. "Order" is a subjective concept, and some systems (like oil and water separating) look more "ordered" but still have higher entropy, because there is more going on energetically than we can observe.

marojejian

This is the best description of entropy and information I've read: https://arxiv.org/abs/1601.06176

Most of all, it highlights the subjective / relative foundations of these concepts.

Entropy and Information only exist relative to a decision about the set of state an observer cares to distinguish.

It also caused me to change my informal definition of entropy from a negative ("disorder)" to a more positive one ("the number of things I might care to know")

The Second Law now tells me that the number of interesting things I don't know about is always increasing!

This thread inspired me to post it here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43695358

tsimionescu

This goes through all definitions of entropy, except the very first one, which is also the one that is in fact measurable and objective: the variation in entropy is the amount of heat energy that the system exchanges with the environment at a given temperature during a reversible process. While tedious, this can be measured, and it doesn't depend on any subjective knowledge about the system. Any two observers will agree on this value, even if one knows all of the details of every single microstate.

IIAOPSW

Its the name for the information bits you don't have.

More elaborately, its the number bits needed to fully specify something which is known to be in some broad category of state but the exact details to calculate it are unknown.

karpathy

What I never fully understood is that there is some implicit assumption about the dynamics of the system. So what that there are more microstates of some macrostate as far as counting is concerned? We also have to make assumptions about the dynamics, and in particular about some property that encourages mixing.

tomnicholas1

Yes, that assumption is called the Ergodic Hypothesis, and generally justified in undergraduate statistical mechanics courses by proving and appealing to Liouville's theorem.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodic_hypothesis

vitus

It's worth noting that there's more than just ergodicity at play, although that's a fundamental requirement. For instance, applying the Pauli Exclusion Principle gives rise to Fermi-Dirac statistics.

tomnicholas1

Isn't that more about enumerating the microstates? The Pauli exclusion principle just ends up forbidding some of the microstates (forbidding a significant fraction of them if you're in the low-temperature regime).

oh_my_goodness

In equilibrium we don't have to make an assumption about the dynamics or the mixing. We just expect to see the most probable state when we measure.

It's interesting to try to show that the time average equals the ensemble average. It's very cool to think about the dynamics. That stuff must be happening. But those extra ideas aren't necessary for applying the equilibrium theory.

null

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anon84873628

Nitpick in the article conclusion:

>Heat flows from hot to cold because the number of ways in which the system can be non-uniform in temperature is much lower than the number of ways it can be uniform in temperature ...

Should probably say "thermal energy" instead of "temperature" if we want to be really precise with our thermodynamics terms. Temperature is not a direct measure of energy, rather it is an extensive property describing the relationship between change in energy to change in entropy.

johan_felisaz

Nitpick of the nitpick... Temperature is actually an intensive quantity, i.e. combining two subsystems with the same temperature yields a bigger system with the same temperature, not twice bigger.

anon84873628

D'oh! Thanks for the correction

timewizard

This is why the "thermodynamic beta" is really useful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_beta

null

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kgwgk

I think you used “extensive” in the sense of “defined for the whole system and not locally”. It’s true that thermodynamics is about systems at equilibrium.

anon84873628

I meant to say "intensive" in the physics sense but just brain farted while typing.

kgwgk

Ah, then I don’t see what’s wrong with “the number of ways in which the system can be non-uniform in temperature is much lower than the number of ways it can be uniform in temperature”. In equilibrium one doesn’t have a gradient of temperature because “…” indeed.