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Googler... ex-Googler

Googler... ex-Googler

956 comments

·April 11, 2025

abdj8

Layoffs are a difficult thing for employees and their managers. I have seen people (one was a VP of Engineering) escorted out of the building, sent in a cab to home along with a security guard (this was in India), not allowed access to computer or talk with other employees. But, recently have had a very different experience. The current company I work for announced 30% layoffs. The list was made public within one hour of announcement. The CEO detailed the process of selecting people. The severance was very generous (3-6 months pay) along with health and other benefits. The impacted employees were allowed to keep the laptop and any other assets they took from the company. They even paid the same severance to contractors.

After the announcement, the laid off employees were given a few days in the company to allow them to say good byes. I love the CEOs comment on this ' I trusted them yesterday, I trust them today'. This was by far the kindest way of laying off employees imo. People were treated with dignity and respect.

DannyBee

Google is just really bad at this, but seems to think it's not bad at this. It's sad since there is no excuse for it - plenty of companies conduct regular layoffs and role eliminations in more compassionate ways, it would not take much to survey and learn from their practices. Hell, IBM was often more compassionate about layoffs than Google.

Some of it they've tried to become more formal about in ways that actually make it worse - so for example, the timing of this (which the person complains about) is because (AFAIK) they now have one day a month where ~all role eliminations that are going to happen that month, happen. Or so i'm told this is the case.

Ostensibly so you don't have random role eliminations every day, which makes some sense, but then you have no way for people on the ground to do anything more compassionate (like move the timing a bit) because they can't get through the bureaucracy.

In the end - it's simple - if you disempower all the people from helping you make it compassionate, it will not be compassionate. The counter argument is usually that those folks don't know how to do it in legally safe/etc ways. But this to me is silly - if you don't trust them to know how to do it, either train them and trust them, or fire them if they simply can't be trusted overall.

skybrian

Google didn’t used to be quite so bad at this. Back when they closed the Atlanta office, people there got a lot of notice and opportunity to find another role. The complaints were about not being allowed to go full-time remote.

I wonder what changed?

bsimpson

Ruth and Fiona aren't Patrick and Laszlo.

It feels like there was leadership turnover in the late 2010s where "conventional company" people assumed the reins of power and started managing it like one.

The founders are complicit too. People like to think "before Larry and Sergey stepped down…" but the founders still control the board (tacitly or explicitly approving of the company's current behavior). Plus, there's Sergey's "60h/w or GTFO" note from a few months back.

ThrowawayR2

When these businesses are in their growth phase, they're relatively lenient about spending and generous to employees. When these businesses run out of opportunities for market growth or entering new markets to improve the bottom line, they turn to cost cutting and squeezing more out of employees to improve the bottom line instead. It's a natural progression for every megacorporation as they hit the limits of their growth.

null

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ChuckMcM

> Google is just really bad at this, but seems to think it's not bad at this.

That is a very charitable way to look at it, when I worked their I started from that point as well. "Hey, this thing you just did, you did it really badly, can we workshop some ways to not do this so badly in the future?"

And yet, again and again they would do something similar again and still do it badly. As the examples piled up, I was able to have more pointed and more direct conversations with the executives tasked with doing these things. After a year or so, the evidence was pretty conclusive, it was neither that they didn't think they were bad at it, they didn't care.

There have been a lot of conversations on HN about how "managing" at Google was warped by the fact that their search advertising business was a freaking printing press for money. So much that billions of cash was generated every quarter that they just put into the bank because they didn't have anything to spend it on. There have been lots of discussions about how that twists evaluations etc.

What has been less discussed is that tens of thousands of people applied every week to work for Google. It is trivial for a manager to 'add staff' just pull them out of the candidate pipeline of people who have accepted offers. Tell HR^h^h People Operations to keep "n" candidates in the pipeline to support 'attritional effects' of management decisions. And blam! you get new employees with a lower salary than the ones you lose to attrition. It was always better to fill an open slot with a newer, cheaper, employee than to transfer one whose job/project/group had just been deleted. Always. Management explicitly pushed hard on the messaging of putting everything in the wiki because it was helpful that firing someone didn't lose any institutional knowledge because that knowledge was already online in the wiki.

As a result, it was ingrained in the management culture that "you can always replace people so don't feel bad about firing them" and "incremental revenue improvement or incremental cost reductions are not promotable events."

Google leadership spends money to create illusions for their employees to maximize their work effort, much like a dairy spends money to keep their cows milk production up. And like the dairy, they don't get too attached to any one cow, after all there are always more cows.

Argyle, the author, had their belief system completely invalidated. That is traumatic, always will be. Google's leadership doesn't care, Google's belief system is that there is already someone in the 'hired' pipeline who costs less than can do any of the things Argyle might do, or has done, and they are cheaper. So yeah, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

skybrian

When I was there, someone getting fired was extremely rare, which doesn’t seem to fit well with “you can always replace people” line that you’re talking about?

But Google is a big place and it was long ago, so perhaps it’s a “blind men and the elephant” thing.

PaulHoule

Google is bad at a lot of things but has a “we’re number one why try harder?” attitude.

Or rather you can’t benchmark the performance of anyone there against industry peers because they are protected by a two-sided market. Bazel, Kubernetes and other startup killing tools are developed there because with monopoly services they can hire 3x the number of developers at 3x the rate of other firms and shackle them with tools and processes that make them 1/3x as productive and survive. It’s even worse when it comes to evaluating top management, somebody like Marissa Meyer might be average at best but has such a powerful flywheel behind them that they might seem to succeed brilliantly even if they were trying to fail with all their might.

_huayra_

Funny how they're bad at this from start to end. Most of these comments talk about the "end" part, but don't forget: Google has a notoriously laggy hiring process with extreme delays and an unacceptably high level of silence on important issues from recruiters.

I have been ghosted so heavily from recruiters TWICE at Google when I was literally telling them "Hey I have offers from $x and $y and I need to decide in 2 weeks. Is there any chance I can get an offer from Google beforehand?" only to receive complete silence and had to go with a different offer. 1-2 months later, the recruiter gets back to me with an offer, I have to decline.

The most hilarious part about it: after I decline, I get interviewed by some team at G that tries to figure out why people declined. I guess they're expecting some teachable moment, some nuance and insight. My answer both times started with "lemme show you an email thread that is very one-sided..."

kweingar

Bazel is an incredibly productive tool at the right scale. I could not imagine working on a giant monorepo without it.

If a startup is killed by Bazel, it probably wasn't the right tech choice for their scale, and it would be more accurate to say that the startup was killed by bad technical leadership.

1024core

> somebody like Marissa Meyer

Marissa Mayer left Google like, 13 years ago...?

DannyBee

"because with monopoly services they can hire 3x the number of developers at 3x the rate of other firms and shackle them with tools and processes that make them 1/3x as productive and survive"

So, this i'd take issue with. I agree on the overall attitude for sure.

But some of the data here is just very wrong.

Google can't hire 3x the number of developers at 3x the rate. It hasn't been able to in probably a decade. At least in established markets. It's true that in new markets it can come in and often hire very quickly, but so can lots of others. I say this all as someone who has:

1. Established multiple mid/large developer sites for Google a number of times over ~2 decades, so saw how it changed.

2. Watched my counterparts at other companies try to do it as well.

...

So i have a bunch of direct experience in knowing how fast it can hire and how many it can hire :)

It's also no longer willing to pay what it would take to get 3x developers 3x as fast but that's orthogonal to whether it could - i've watched it try and fail at getting 2x developers 2x as fast in many markets. It used to be able to, but now the only trick up its sleeve is money, sometimes freedom. That doesn't go as far as one would think.

As for 1/3rd productive due to tools and processes - most companies have near zero telemetry on their developer productivity, or very basic telemetry (build times, bug times, etc), while google has an amazing amount.

I don't even think most companies have enough telemetry to be able to quantify their productivity for real to even say it's 3x google's.

For example, most companies could not tell me how long it takes to get a feature from idea to production, what parts of the process take up what time, and how all that has changed over time and breaks down among their various developer populations. Let alone provide real insight into it.

(Feel free to pick your alternative measure, I would still bet most of the time the telemetry isn't captured)

Most seem to drive productivity based on very small parts of their chain (build times, etc) and the rest on sentiment.

That may actually be the right level of telemetry for them, and the right thing to do, depending on what they are trying to do, but it makes it very hard to say they are actually more productive or not.

There are many complaints you could make about Google, but the productivity of tools is not one of them. Sure, some people love them, some people hate them, like anything, but that is orthogonal. I've certainly seen the "i like x better" or "i am much more productive in x" complaints. But by any objective measure, the tools make Google's developers wildly productive, and are one of the reasons they are able to overcome so much more process.

The process part i agree with, like any other large company, google is smothered in process these days.

I remember having the following discussion with a 5000 person org about their launch bits:

Them: We've done some data and tracking and discovered we think only the following kinds of launches are actually really risky for us, so we want to make them blocking on the following launch bits.

Me: Great, does that mean the other launches aren't risky and you don't really care about the launch bits you have to approve for them?

Them: Yes

Me: Are you going to remove the launch bits from them so it stops slowing them down and you don't think they are risky at all?

Them: No.

santoshalper

Dude, Marissa Mayer hasn't been at Google for well over a decade. Weird callout.

swiftcoder

> Google is just really bad at this, but seems to think it's not bad at this

The BigTech firms have been doing this intentionally for a very long time. I started hearing about Microsoft doing the security-escorts-you-straight-out-the-door all the way back in 2012.

It's not that they are bad at this, it's that they think the trade-off works out in their favour. And it probably does - what's a few but-hurt former employees, versus one disgruntled former employee who had enough warning to snag critical data on their way out the door?

Though it's probably our fault, since we're all so trusting of our mega corp employers, and/or so optimistic about our chances of surviving layoffs, that no one is stashing the incriminating data ahead of time.

ThrowawayB7

> "I started hearing about Microsoft doing the security-escorts-you-straight-out-the-door all the way back in 2012."

Are you sure about that? Microsoft's 2014 layoffs, which were large enough to be reported in the tech press, let employees keep network and building access until the actual layoff date.

apexalpha

Weird, as someone from Europe I've never experience anything else.

Layoffs here are always done in conjunction with the unions. People are moved to different jobs, helped with training etc...

Only in very critical jobs they'd walk you out immediately but then you still get the pay.

Scandiravian

Having experienced layoffs in both US and EU companies, the difference is massive. In my experience there is very little respect for "the human" being laid off in US companies

People literally would just disappear day to day. I've had several instances where I only found out a colleague had been fired because I tried to write them on Slack only to find that their account had been deactivated

Personally I felt constantly worried working in such an environment and I don't want to work for another US company again if I can help it

There are of course bad cases in the EU, but in my experience it's way less common than in the US

bigfatkitten

Layoffs in US companies are a BCP event. It's like an earthquake or a tsunami. Weeks of chaos while you figure out who survived, and who's now doing the work previously done by a team that no longer exists.

I watched a layoff take out half the security team during an incident. That was fun.

wyclif

If anyone here has only worked in the EU and wants to see what the US layoff process is supposed to be on a good day, just watch the movie Margin Call and the scene where Eric Dale is called into the office by HR to be fired.

There's a scene where they put a folder in front of him with a brightly-coloured sailboat on the cover labelled "LOOKING AHEAD." It's exactly as grim as it sounds.

yodsanklai

> I don't want to work for another US company again if I can help it

You can work for a US company in the UE. They have to follow the local rules like anybody else.

slac

The EU is not a country. Labor laws vary massively between countries.

apwell23

> In my experience there is very little respect for "the human" being laid off in US companies

its much easier to find another job in US because of this though.

331c8c71

> Layoffs here are always done in conjunction with the unions.

Europe is vastly diverse and your experience is not representative of all Europe.

AstralStorm

That's true. But contracts here usually have a set termination time, with a minimum notice time typically required by law, dependent on how long you've been hired at the company. Tends to be one month for below a year, three months beyond a year.

As in after a termination there's a period during which you're still supposed to work and collect the salary.

Exceptions are B2B contracts (but they still often have one of those) and some piece work contracts.

Of course a particular bastard of a company can still immediately cut you off everything but the salary including the doors.

Aeolun

It sounds representative of every part of Europe I’ve experienced.

potato3732842

Shrodinger's Europe. It could be homogeneously like Denmark, Sicily, Monaco, Hungary, London or Belarus or anywhere else. You don't know which until you have an asinine blanket statement you need to back up.

damnitbuilds

I worked a at large European company. They announced there would be layoffs. But not who, just the date. On that date, they came round during the day, tapping people on the shoulder, who walked out of the room and were never seen in the office again. Grown men were crying, who weren't even let go.

I never felt good about that company ever again.

wiseowise

> Weird, as someone from Europe I've never experience anything else.

As someone from Europe, I’ve never experienced US salaries. Go figure.

perching_aix

You probably never experienced their working hours either.

WhrRTheBaboons

what about US costs of living?

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constantcrying

The idea of being able to keep a laptop sounds absurd to me. Of course many European countries have labor laws which make it near impossible to fire someone on the spot.

>Only in very critical jobs they'd walk you out immediately but then you still get the pay.

Presumably you are also still employed, just not given any tasks. I do not think that here in Germany there is any way to immediately fire someone, just because he was working on something critical.

Many companies refuse to do layoffs entirely. Which often means that they have difficulties responding to changes in the environment or need to heavily rely on contractors.

perching_aix

* Experience in Central- and Eastern Europe (CEE) may differ.

Well, getting escorted out definitely doesn't happen here either at least.

lproven

> Well, getting escorted out definitely doesn't happen here either at least.

It 100% does. It happened to me in Brno, Czechia, and this February I interviewed someone to whom the same thing happened and who was attempting to sue for unfair dismissal.

michalstanko

It really depends on the people you work for, it's not like Europe is some kind of paradise in this matter. I was working as a contractor for a company in Germany, after a few years working together, they cut me off from one day to the next (the new manager decided to start saving money), even though my contract included a clause about a one-month notice period. They didn’t even bother to pay the invoice for the work I had already done that month (it was the 23rd of the month, so we’re talking about a few thousand euros). And since I wasn't living in Germany, extracting that money from them was almost impossible.

Yes, it may be different for full-time non-contract jobs, but once you're on a contract, nobody cares.

apexalpha

Yeah but that's kinda the point of being a contractor, no?

Here in the Netherlands contractors are also 'at will employed' as the Americans say.

But they pay you more so...

chippiewill

The legal responsiveness for contractor disputes is definitely not as good as employment. Messing up employment relations in Europe ends up really expensive in most jurisdictions because there'll usually be some mix of unions, government agency or charity that'll have the employee's back.

Contractors don't have that kind of support pretty much anywhere (that's sort of the point), and it's just a standard contract dispute that lawyers argue about.

constantcrying

That is obviously criminal though.

AstralStorm

Sure it was possible, just not convenient. Small claims charges in EU court do work. One major benefit of EU.

immibis

Working as a contractor means you're self-employed and the relations you have with "your boss" are a B2B relationship where you agree to get something done in exchange for money - no different from renting office space or servers. Since you're a business owner, you're expected to be competent in the areas of business (which can be cut-throat) and law. You chose to take on this risk by being a contractor.

Gasp0de

So what you're saying is your company had a customer that breached contract and didn't pay. I wouldn't compare that to being fired?

Sonnigeszeug

Oo? It should have been no issue at all for you to get this money.

We are a law and order country.

You got yourself played

o_m

It makes sense in the US where they have terms like "going postal" and easy access to guns

Aurornis

> After the announcement, the laid off employees were given a few days in the company to allow them to say good byes.

I was at a company that did this. I thought it was very nice at first.

It didn’t take long to see why most companies don’t do this. It became common to have a couple people who turned their last days into a mission to poison the well and go on angry tirades. Those days became tense and messy as people trying to do work felt necessary to move it to private messages to avoid triggering anyone.

It gets really ugly when IT starts checking logs and sees outgoing employees doing things like accessing code they weren’t even working on or downloading files in volume.

This was at a company with generous severance, too, so that wasn’t the cause. A small number of people get irrationally vengeful upon being laid off. At Big Tech scale it’s virtually guaranteed that at least one of the people you lay off is going to make some bad decisions.

stronglikedan

My company does this, but they are a very large company that is known to aggressively sue people that try to poison the well, so no one tries.

therealpygon

As it should be, but emotional people make emotional choices. The trusted and valued employee yesterday can turn on a dime and become malicious when they feel they have been wronged regardless of whether that is independently true. Their resulting actions can include anything from theft of IP to hand over to a competitor, to destruction of records or property. Worse, it is impossible to tell when someone will choose to feel they have been wronged, even when the employee could have had chronic absenteeism or underperformance that they justify with personal excuses. (I’m not suggesting there shouldn’t be compassion, rather that most people will almost always make mental excuses to justify their behavior regardless of whether that reasoning is sound.)

Companies generally don’t become militant about a subject unless they have experienced the other side of the equation. It’s not just with layoffs, it can happen with protecting source code, licensing, network security, etc. I concede that a company could replace destroyed property and should be able to recover deleted data, then prosecute/sue to recover damages which could cost tens or hundreds of thousands(or millions depending on the level of access), but the disruption to business can be significant in some cases. Moreover, it is impossible to put an IP cat back in the bag.

For me, it seems easy to understand both sides on this one; compassion vs risk.

palmotea

> As it should be, but emotional people make emotional choices. The trusted and valued employee yesterday can turn on a dime and become malicious when they feel they have been wronged regardless of whether that is independently true.

That's pretty cold, un-empathetic logic. If you're rigorously practice that kind of thing, you'll get the same reflected back at you.

My company has layoffs (not massive, but some). In my experience, the affected employees keep their access to everything, and typically finish up their work and participate in transition activities (knowledge transfer, etc) over a couple weeks. Yeah, they're typically also slacking a lot and socializing more, but no one around here wants to be an ass to their coworkers. I think the only people who get their access cut off are those fired for cause.

> Companies generally don’t become militant about a subject unless they have experienced the other side of the equation.

There are obvious problems with designing your processes around the literal worst case (e.g. treating everyone like they're a criminal has consequences).

acdha

> The trusted and valued employee yesterday can turn on a dime and become malicious when they feel they have been wronged regardless of whether that is independently true.

On the flip side, treating them like a crook seems more likely to inspire that kind of revenge instinct. Most people would understand removing privileged access immediately but giving them a dignified exit seems more likely to prevent problems.

crazygringo

It does, but if you've removed the damage they can do, then to the company it's preferable to have more people angry who can't do damage, than less people angry but some of them will do damage.

It's a sad reality. For some people a "dignified exit" won't do a single thing to lessen the rage they feel that they were wronged. It's a sad situation all around.

throwaway2037

Wow, the last paragraph is really touching. That comment from the CEO is brilliant: "I trusted them yesterday, I trust them today." That will stay with me for some time!

constantcrying

It is a genuinely terrible idea by the CEO though. Yesterday you paid them, today you don't. If you think that doesn't change your relationship, you have to be a fool.

ignoramous

> I trusted them yesterday, I trust them today.

The problem is, before the layoffs, the employee may have felt they had an obligation to do right by the company. Once they're fired, it may no longer be the case. Some may very well become spiteful, act on their vengeance, & seek immediate retribution.

The risk posed by an employee going rouge is what most CEOs are playing for, especially as in GP's case, for a company as large as Google, where they need to plan for all possible failures and scenarios, some of which may or may not have happened before hand.

eloisant

In France you can't layoff people on the spot, there is a 3 months notice. And I've yet to hear about employees going rogue.

Maybe in US laid off employees can go rogue because they're treated like shit in the process?

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crossroadsguy

For anyone not from India — India does layoffs in every way. From “cut on zoom in 90 sec” to “please know that you have to resign and serve your two months notice and then go”; to also “if you want you can serve the notice period, or you can just leave today and still get the pay for two months”. I have experienced the first and last and in the case of last for some reason I had chosen to serve the notice.

shermantanktop

My immediate reaction is “I probably would too.”

Working is often treated as transactional but it is about so much more. Self-worth, professional reputation, bonds with coworkers, ownership and stewardship of solutions. Even the simple everyday routine that a workplace drives is important.

dartharva

Another way how India does layoffs is by holding back multiple months' salaries "due to cash flow difficulties", suddenly sending them a mail of "you're fired" overnight and never paying them their dues, ever, leaving them destitute and crippling their employability. A lot of companies have done this, because they know they can, because practical legal recourses for salaried individuals are virtually non-existent in the country and its crippled judicial system.

biztos

That’s great, and the polar opposite of how I experienced layoffs (of others, then eventually of me).

But one thing that could be better is transparency around severance, so you know in advance what it will be should you get laid off. (Six months may or may not be “generous” depending on tenure.)

When I was laid off we got what was “customary” in that country, but before the offer was on the table nobody was sure we’d get it. It’s so much nicer when this is a matter of law — I’m all for a ~ free labor market but severance requirements help to balance the risk so the employees can relax and do their best work.

azangru

I've skimmed through the comments; and seen that most people have commented on the cog in the machine thing, or on layoffs in general and how they suck.

To me, the shock from this blog post was about seeing a Chrome developer relations engineer whom I have grown to admire and who has been doing a stellar job educating web developers on new html and css features, get the sack. He was one of the best remaining speakers on web topics at the Chrome team (I am still sad about the departure of Paul Lewis and Jake Archibald); and produced a lot of top-notch educational materials (the CSS podcast; the conference talks; the demos).

What does this say about Google's attitude to web and to Chrome? What does this say about Google's commitment to developer excellence?

I understand that this is a personal tragedy for Adam; but for me personally, this is also a huge disillusionment in Google.

atotic

Agreed, Adam really is one of the best at what he does. His talks, demos, were always so interesting. My guess is that he'll be at Microsoft shortly.

What Google is saying with this layoff is that they no longer care about web developer relations. Chrome has not been well funded for years.

Firefox did the same thing five years ago, when they fired David Baron, who was one of the top 5 engineers in the world that understood how HTML layout works. He got instantly hired by Chrome.

It is kind of crazy that the core group that moves web standards forward is around 150 people. And most of them did not get rich off it, and have been doing it for decades.

kvark

David Baron was a distinguished engineer at Mozilla - not someone you fire at a whim. What makes you think he didn't leave voluntarily?

azangru

> Chrome has not been well funded for years.

Hasn't it? It has still been developing quite rapidly; and used to lead in interop scores (reflecting how well a browser conforms to the specs).

kvetching

"The DOJ Still Wants Google to Sell Off Chrome" -Wired (March 7, 2025)

noosphr

>What does this say about Google's commitment to developer excellence?

Look inside the tensorflow code base for your answer.

I had the Kafkaesque experience of reporting a bug, being told there is no bug by a help desk employee, while the bug was throwing up errors in the official docs.

To top it off I got a message by one of the onshore team months later that they were going to solve it only for the person to be fired within a week.

I've mostly moved to jax for daily experiments. Hopefully the fact that codebase is small and modular will mean that when Google Googles all over the project there will be enough know how to maintain a community fork.

thatguysaguy

The user love/passion on the JAX team is super high. Interacting with them is whatever the opposite of Kafkaesque is.

wrs

Well, right up until they get suddenly laid off.

whiplash451

Hasn't Google given up on tensorflow for JAX now?

It looks like tensorflow is going down the slow legacy/sunset trajectory at this point.

azangru

Have they given up on tensorflow.js for the browser as well? Is there any replacement?

wiether

> for me personally, this is also a huge disillusionment in Google

This feels like "I installed Chrome before Google went evil".

https://fortune.com/2025/03/19/tesla-owners-elon-crazy-bumpe...

mcv

Google dropped their "don't be evil" a very long time ago.

rurp

I can't wait for everyone to be shocked, shocked, in five years when the biggest genAI companies get caught engaging in a bunch of sleazy behavior.

int_19h

You don't have to wait at all, given that OpenAI has been at it for some time now.

raffael_de

While possibly a traumatic experience for Adam, I fail to see the significance of this beyond anecdotal level. And I find it rather odd to argue that after all Google did and didn't do that this is what is causing disillusionment with Google. By now Chrome is basically just a Trojan Horse with advertisement and surveillance for this purpose hidden in the inside.

chilmers

I think the OP explained the broader significance very well: If Google is firing one of the most successful and active web developer relations people they have, it suggests a strategic downgrade of the Chrome, the web, and engagement in human developers. That's bad news for anyone who builds for the web or who relies on it as an open platform for the dissemination of information and software.

I think the position your take re. Google and Chrome is an extreme one. It always surprises me that such black and white opinions about big tech companies are commonplace even on HN. Yes, Google have done things around privacy that I strongly disagree with, but the idea that Chrome is simply a trojan horse for advertising/surveillance is absurdly reductive and ignores the history of Google as a company.

Google was, originally, a web-first company. Their business success relied on the web being an open, competitive platform. And, at a time when Microsoft were still trying to maintain monopoly control of personal computing, Google's development of Chrome did a huge amount of good in maintaining and enhancing the web as an open alternative. And they employed a lot of people who were genuinely believed in that mission, such as Adam.

Make no mistake, the death or spin-off of Chrome will not be a win for privacy or openness. Building a web browser is a hugely expensive and difficult endeavor, and it has to be paid for somehow. Yes, Google has leveraged Chrome in some ways to collect data, but far less than they could have done, and far less than any successor will have to do, just to keep the lights on. Look at what has happened to Mozilla and Firefox if you need proof.

transcriptase

The fact that manifest V3 went through and fundamentally nerfed all extensions that just so happen to block ads and offer privacy means these people failed, regardless of their intentions.

astrange

> If Google is firing one of the most successful and active web developer relations people they have, it suggests a strategic downgrade of the Chrome, the web, and engagement in human developers.

A layoff is not firing. If Google is doing layoffs, they'll intentionally choose good performers so they can demonstrate it was done for purely economic reasons. Otherwise they get legal issues.

Besides that, Google may not trust its own performance metrics well enough to use them. The VP might assume the director is lying about who's important etc.

theptip

> it suggests a strategic downgrade of the Chrome

Hadn’t thought of it this way, but if there is (say) a 50% chance of being forced to divest Chrome, then the EV on your investments in the future are substantially lower.

Strategic downgrade sounds right.

raffael_de

The history of Chrome and Google is interesting but not very relevant for assessing their status quo. If anything you'd have to factor in the trajectory (which I did: "by now") and given its direction it certainly wouldn't improve a valuation. Regarding your "reductive" opinion of Firefox and Mozilla, all I can say is I use Firefox and I'm quite satisfied with it. Ironically, the worst part about Mozilla and its business decisions can be traced back to it being funded by ... Google.

Geenkaas

I am listening to a podcast Adam Argyle is talking in, listening to what he is passionate about and then getting axed by Google is painful to hear as now it is clear that Google is not passionate about those things (anymore). It is also painful personally because it is what I am passionate about (and my job). Link: https://dev.to/whiskey-web-and-whatnot/leveraging-css-web-de...

jldugger

> What does this say about Google's attitude to web and to Chrome? What does this say about Google's commitment to developer excellence?

It probably says "the DOJ really is gonna force us to sell Chrome."

rchaud

Unless the prospective buyer's name rhymes with Melon Tusk, I doubt the DOJ will do anything to challenge Google's web monopoly this strongly.

gman83

Maybe they're not confident in the case against them: https://www.wired.com/story/the-doj-still-wants-google-to-di...

extra88

This round of layoffs wasn't only on the Chrome team but also for Android.

forestgreen76

This certainly isn't new. I know someone who worked at Google who mentioned the company culture has been souring since the start of the pandemic. I suspect Google will have a slow death akin to Yahoo in the coming years.

sudomateo

> But I was also immediately ripped away from my calendar, docs, code, and more.

Layoffs are never easy. I've been through a few myself and it really takes the wind out of your sails. That being said, this sentence made me pause a bit. None of these things mentioned are actually yours. They are the property of Google.

One thing that helped me immensely in my career is understanding that my relationship with a company is a business relationship. They pay me for my time and skills and nothing more. Today I can have a job and tomorrow maybe not. I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. It's not easy but it's necessary. I'm not saying you can't enjoy what you do or be excited by it but don't fully tether yourself and your well-being to a company.

Godspeed!

dullcrisp

I think their point was that they were told they could look for another internal role, but at the same time had their access revoked, which sends a very mixed message.

windward

It's because the message isn't for OP, it's for the people who are left.

sudomateo

With the way it was written it wasn't clear to me whether the other role was offered as a replacement for the layoff or more of a good luck I'm sure you'll land on your feet. Agreed it's a mixed message if it was the former.

ErigmolCt

Companies will always remind you it's "just business" when it suits them - so it's healthy to keep that same energy in return

citizenpaul

Ah yes. I got to do that once after a layoff. The manager tried to guilt me or something into working after I was layed off. "Because they were given me severance so I should be ok with doing the work"

I told them. No you are wrong. I was given severance to sign an NDA and non-disparagement agreement. That is what the severance bought the company, but I'll be glad to discuss a consultant role on an hourly basis.

qntmfred

yup. embrace being a cog. enjoy your cog work as much as you can, but recognize it for what it is. don't tie your identity to it.

heresie-dabord

> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer. It's not easy but it's necessary.

Agreed, it is necessary to make deprogramming oneself easier — less painful — to the extent that one has come to identify with the work and/or culture and/or employer.

But it is also exhausting to maintain a façade of allegiance to a harshly indifferent power structure.

delichon

To me my employer is my customer. We don't require each other's allegiance, just an ongoing mutually beneficial transaction and good will. When either fails for either party it's time to move along. Devotion isn't part of the arrangement.

damnitbuilds

Similarly:

I got badly burnt in a relationship once.

After that I promised myself not to get hurt again. If you don't love each other any more, accept that, and walk away.

Worked for me, and I stayed friends with almost all my ex-es after that.

windward

>I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer.

Not just that: separate it from your career. Ensure that you and others would still value yourself even if you weren't receiving top decile income for an easy job. A misanthropic software developer is begrudgingly useful; a plain misanthrope isn't even mediocre.

sudomateo

Good clarification. I know this separation is difficult especially when the career funds the other parts of life and the employer or title you hold is seen as prestigious.

kaon_

"One thing that helped me immensely in my career is understanding that my relationship with a company is a business relationship"

That is just a culture thing. Most prominently in the US. In many cultures there is no clear boundary between personal relationships and business relationships. And why would there be? I would like to live in a world where kindness, dependability, punctuality, warmness, openness and forgiveness are values upheld both by natural and legal persons. And I have worked with many companies that have! As you can read in the comments, for every bad example you can find companies lead by empathic people that treat their employees humanely.

Google always pretended to be that company. And maybe they were for a long time. Now they've shifted. They really didn't have to but they did. The excuse of "it's just a business relationship" really is just that: an excuse. The symptom of a culture with values so bankrupt that it accepts citizens being treated poorly and then blames the victims for expecting to be treated humanely.

And yes, it saves you a lot of personal pain if you expect the worst from your employer from the outset. But is the world really better off if we all expect to treat each other like criminals?

sudomateo

My comment is not meant to encourage removing kindness and humanity from the relationship. It's meant as a reminder that the other party in the relationship (the company) does not necessarily bring those values to the table.

I would also like to live in a world where humane values are reflected in personal and business relationships to the point where the line between personal and business relationships blurs.

kopirgan

Exactly.. Many see it as some sort of marriage in an age where even marriages are contractual relations

JKCalhoun

I hope you're not suggesting that you approach your marriage the way you approach your relationship with a corporate partner.

anal_reactor

> I recommended learning how to separate your value from your employer.

This is a very recent development. Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life, which means it was very much worth it to cultivate that relationship, it's only now that we change jobs every two years. A friend of mine has a company in a very small town, and was complaining about an employee being lazy. I suggested "just fire him if he doesn't do his job", to which I heard "and then what? I'll have a jobless bum walking around my town. Thanks but no". This really shifted my perspective: the situation where employer and employee have no moral obligations towards one another and it's "business only" is not how the society at large should function.

intellectronica

> Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life

Hardly. This type of arrangement was short-lived and anomalous. It was roughly true in rich economies during a few decades of the post-war era. Never before, and not for most people around the world.

Relationships are worth cultivating any time, of course, but one shouldn't mistake a job for a life. The idea that a job is for life and your employer is your family was a mind hack that worked for a short while and is now unraveling.

dmoy

In the days of yore, didn't a decent chunk of people literally have their name come from a family profession? I.e. John Smith, Jan Schmidt, Carl Maria von Weber.

As in it wouldn't be just your worth tied to the profession, but N generations of your parents, etc.

AstralStorm

It used to be sort of true in the Soviet sphere. By sort of, it was more like an employer for life rather than the exact job. Unless rhe company went under which was rare.

anal_reactor

> Never before, and not for most people around the world.

Please tell me more about the gig economy of medieval peasants.

crazygringo

> Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life

This is... not true. It's so not true I don't even know where to start rebutting it. But for a start, most of human history you were either hunting and gathering for yourself, keeping a flock for yourself, or farming land for yourself. "Employment" even as a concept is a pretty new concept on the scale of human history.

bluecheese452

Heck even farming is a tiny sliver of time. Vast majority has been pre-agriculture.

hnbad

> Through the entirety of human history you'd keep working for the same employer for your entire life

Just looking at the Western world that breaks down during industrialization and falls apart if you go further back then that, journeymen (i.e. tradesmen who had completed their apprenticeship) would often literally travel from town to town for several years to work under different masters before submitting their work to a guild for evaluation and becoming masters themselves. I guess you could say serfs worked "for the same employer" because their feudal lords owned them as part of the territory but that seems like a stretch.

It's not so much that employees used to "keep working for the same employer for their entire lives", it's more that the people running and operating businesses used to be part of a local community and there used to be an understanding of a shared responsibility beyond private property claims.

This isn't something employees can change, either. Even employers aren't really able to change this because they too have to operate in the same economic system that contributes to this effect. It's probably more extreme in the US (and some places in the US more than others) but the economic system does not care for such sentimentalities and a business that does will put itself at an economic disadvantage, especially where the social fabric has already been sufficiently eroded to avoid bad optics (e.g. WalMart arguably failed in Germany because its attitude to employees felt extremely off-putting both to workers and consumers at the time but that resistance may have been eroded by the behavior of other companies since to the point where it would no longer make them stand out the same way if they tried to re-enter the market now - economic changes making this unfeasible notwithstanding).

milesrout

For most of human history we were hunter-gatherers. Even assuming you mean post-industrial history this isn't true though.

ThrowawayR2

The person you're replying to is correct in a technical sense I think? The hunter-gatherer phase would be considered prehistory since it pre-dates the development of writing, which is what enabled humans to record history.

null

[deleted]

watwut

Do people really have to make up stuff like that? If you said large parts of history, maybe.

"For entirety" definitely not. What you describe was a thing in some periods, typically periods where some group got too much power and they tended to end with huge disfunctions and breakdowns.

spicyusername

    I really was just a fuckin cog in a mega corp.
Yep. One of the most unfortunate realities of modernity.

Your managers, or your managers managers, or their managers don't care about you. At all. If you ask them on the weekend, they'll decry that the things they are asked to do are horrible. but they'll still do it. Some gladly.

They are themselves cogs in the machine.

A machine that goes all the way to the executive class, and they really don't care about you. In fact, more likely than not, they detest you.

We all participate in this hostile culture, in various ways. Usually using the excuse that we need to pay rent, eat, find the work interesting, or with some other excuse that justify the means.

It seems like it's hard to do the right thing when you have something you want to buy or otherwise spent your whole life getting here, before realizing what here is.

ssimpson

I feel like its unfair to say every single direct manager doesn't care about their folks. I care about each and every person on my team, I care if they are engaged and if they can do their job. I care if they get sick and give them the time to make sure they feel better. I care about their career and try to help them along. Maybe I'm the minority, but I think that lots of managers of ICs should and do feel this way. As you go up the ladder, i can see that going down as the scope increases, but thats why you have managers, to keep attention to those details. Now i've had directors and stuff that do not care about their managers. I've also had managers that aren't great and don't care.

You are 100% correct though, we are all cogs in the machine. In the end, the people at the top don't care about anything below them if it isn't making them an the shareholders more money. If they do, they are a unicorn and i hope everyone gets to work with someone like that.

When I was laid off from RAX, it was a super emotional time. I had a job where I got to hang out with my friends and good people doing good stuff, and we also did some work (the work we were doing was so enjoyable most of the time, it didn't feel like work). I've never been able to capture that since and it has contributed greatly to my desire to get out of leadership roles.

rsanek

> its unfair to say every single direct manager doesn't care about their folks

That's not the claim being made, by my reading. The quote was, "Your managers, or your managers managers, or their managers don't care about you" -- which to me means, it's not clear exactly at what level, but at some point people stop caring about you as an individual. This may be at the direct manager level if you have a shitty manager. Or it may be much higher. But at some point up the chain it will become true if you're at a megacorp.

drewlander

Former racker here. When RAX laid me off, I was told there was no other place for me to go (which was not true). I loved my time there and the people I learned so much from and loved working with. It hurt. I had fantastic managers who did care, but the company changed and looking back I shouldn’t have been surprised. Cog in the machine. When I was a manager elsewhere I tried to show the same care my previous managers did. I cared even if those at the top didn’t.

vonneumannstan

>I really was just a fuckin cog in a mega corp. >Yep. One of the most unfortunate realities of modernity.

The crazy thing to me is the lack of awareness of these people. Has hiring at Google fallen off that badly? Was there always such a gap between 'smart enough to work at google' and 'smart enough to realize their corpo-we're one big family-speak is total BS' ?

dennis_jeeves2

> 'smart enough to work at google' and 'smart enough to realize their corpo-we're one big family-speak is total BS

I have noticed that smartness can be highly compartmentalized.

int_19h

"Smart" and "naive" are not antonyms. Indeed, it is practically a stereotype that the two often go together.

dlandis

There’s a difference between intellectually understanding it, versus actually seeing yourself tossed aside and cast out, while knowing that all the other cogs are already back in motion and pretty much fully adjusted to your absence.

shadowgovt

For many Googlers, this is their one-and-only company so they actually have no frame of reference, including no frame of reference to notice the company culture was shifting over the past decade-ish.

ibejoeb

> We all participate in this hostile culture

You can try to participate less. It's also work, but for some people, it's better than the corporate environment.

Keep your expenses under control. (That alone can be hard to do if you're relatively successful in tech, so I mention it because it's something to really think about.) Network in real life to find projects that have finite durations. Take some time between those projects and use that to both relax and develop new business. Go to a different city for a few days, maybe for an organized meetup or a conference (even if you don't attend) and try to meet people. You're double dipping here. Go sightseeing or something else entertaining, and then try to work a room.

> they really don't care about you. In fact, more likely than not, they detest you.

Hopefully more the former than the latter. You're not getting married. You shouldn't be out to find a new family, and everyone hates that metaphor anyway. You probably will find people you do like, though. Since you're targeting well defined business, you don't have to live with that relationship if it doesn't pan out. You just need to get to your next cycle.

I've found a lot of people that I really do like. Some, I still do business with, and others I just sometimes get together with for dinner or a cocktail. We know we still like each other because there's no longer any money involved.

This is a defensive play also since you aren't all-in on one engagement. You can't get complacent just because you're on a W-2 and it all feels good, as this post illustrates.

I'm aware that this isn't an out-of-the-gate strategy. If you're gainfully employed now, save up. Even if you hate your job, use it to establish a stable position so that you can get out when you want to. Seriously consider what you think are the luxuries in life and whether you actually enjoy them or if you have been convinced that you do for some other purpose, like pleasing others, peacocking, or keeping up with the Joneses.

nikolayasdf123

> I really was just a fuckin cog in a mega corp.

yep, you always was.

bigtech and corporate make a good illusion that you aren't. brace, if you let yourself believe in that illusion.

LPisGood

I feel like this is a very dramatic view of things. Have you ever been in a management position?

bbarn

I think his statement could have benefited from and/or implicitly in the list of titles.

I certainly care very deeply about my people, and letting someone go is a last resort after trying to work things out. My boss cares that I care.. their boss.. we're numbers.

bbqfog

I have and this poster is spot on, he needs to go higher up the chain though. Investors hate employees, even founders. Founders are out to get rich. Executives are out to get rich but don't have what it takes to be founders. All of these people detest labor. They are the enemy you must work with to buy food. Treat them as such.

LPisGood

I feel like this is a very cynical way of looking at things.

I know some excellent people in leadership that have been promoted from lower level management jobs. I’m not sure the career change made them no longer care about people.

dennis_jeeves2

>In fact, more likely than not, they detest you.

Engineers, nerds, developers remember this ALWAYS. Do not work hard for ANYONE including your family members unless they reciprocate proportionately.

clutchdude

This reminds me of the demotivator with pictures of cogs.

> Just because you are necessary doesn't mean you are important.

https://despair.com/cdn/shop/files/worth_6b813282-f9f8-41ab-...

freeamz

This has being like this when that changed from "Personal" department to "Human Resources"

Do the corp that is what you are!

The lower level of hell is definitely reserved of industrial psychologists and advertisers!

ivraatiems

The reality of one's lack of value to one's own employer is often baffling. It makes you wonder how anyone manages to stay employed at all, since apparently everyone is replicable and unimportant. I have been through layoffs where other people on my team, doing the same job I did approximately as well, got laid off. No explanation given for why them and not me. And it could happen to me at any time.

It doesn't matter how good my evals are or how big my contributions. It doesn't matter that there are multiple multi-million-dollar revenue streams which exist in large part due to my contributions. It doesn't matter that I have been told I am good enough that I should be promoted to the next level. Raises barely exist, let alone promotions. Because theoretically some other engineer could have done the same work I actually did, the fact that I'm the one who did it doesn't matter and I deserve no reward for doing it beyond the minimum money necessary to secure my labor.

Under those conditions, why should I - or anyone - do any more than the minimum necessary to not get fired for cause? If the company doesn't see me as more than X dollars for X revenue, why should I?

somesortofthing

Layoffs in particular are like this because they're planned very quickly by very small groups of people. Rumors of impending layoffs obliterate morale, so the people in charge do everything they can to maintain secrecy and minimize the time between people hearing about layoffs and the layoffs taking effect. This basically always translates to random-seeming decisions - priority 1 is to cut costs by X amount, choosing the right people to cut is secondary. This means that, for example, engineers that have received performance-based raises are punished since, on paper, they do the same job as lower-performing but lower-paid engineers.

Not defending the process(the right way to break this equilibrium is statutory requirements for layoffs a la the WARN act) but that's why you see the outcomes you do.

gizmondo

In this particular case the impending layoff was basically obvious to everyone months in advance (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42893463).

ethbr1

> Rumors of impending layoffs obliterate morale

Granted, but it seems like the current way of salary-first, performance-blind cutting obliterates it even harder.

rincebrain

Really, all options obliterate morale.

Laying off people who you rank as "low end" on the acceptable performance scale, might mean you kill structurally important bricks that were not optimizing for being higher than "high enough" on that scale, and cannibalizes people working on anything valuable long-term but hard to justify to management short-term.

Laying off high performers means people don't want their head to be poking up, so they sabotage their own visibility to try being "good enough", while also killing people's motivations.

Laying off randomly kills people's morale directly worst of all, because that implies there's nothing they can do to change the outcome, and impotence is worse, arguably, than anything else for many people.

thesuitonym

Any style of layoff is going to be bad for morale, but rumors floating around tank morale for as long as those rumors exist, and then moral takes another hit on the actual day. In that way it makes sense to just rip the Band-Aid off.

Of course, if you ask me, a more sensible plan to keep morale and lower costs would be getting rid of a few executives, but what do I know? I'm just a number on a spreadsheet.

whatshisface

Managers don't have the kind of information necessary to plan layoffs that don't seem random. Anything they know is already being used for the usual hiring/promotion/compensation adjustment process.

mandelbrotwurst

It seems rather disappointing if typical management would make such impactful decisions so rapidly that their "on paper" analysis couldn't be made clever enough to consider more than a single variable.

Ferret7446

Your relationship with your employer is no different than any other business relationship. You can do the bare minimum, just as there are many businesses that do the bare minimum toward their customers, and those businesses often have a low subsistence level of success; if you do the same, you may have the same level of success in your career.

An employment relationship can offer a lot of things for both sides. For the employer, your labor of course. For the employee, a salary of course. But it can also offer experience, access to other talented and intelligent individuals and access to capital to learn and try things, networking, relationships, opportunities for promotion and perhaps opportunities to find better employment elsewhere, or the skills and/or connections to start your own business.

Your attitude toward work should be the same as the attitude you take towards the rest of your life. You can "rot" or you can make the most of every opportunity.

pjmlp

This is a lesson that all senior developers know pretty well, that is why companies rather hire naive juniors, instead folks that already mastered how the game gets played, and cannot be sold on company mission, values, or whatever snake oil gets talked about during interview process.

JKCalhoun

And while I was still employed as a seasoned developer (before recently retiring) I felt it was my role to pass along some of my cynicism to the new hires and younger devs. Some of them seemed a little surprised to see me call bullshit in a group meeting. (Good luck to you boys and girls.)

pton_xd

Meanwhile, they all roll their eyes at the "jaded greybeard" advice. I know, because many years ago I was doing the eye rolling. I guess some lessons really can only be learned through experience.

neilv

Not all. You're talking about douchebag companies.

If I try to hire someone in the future, and I'm talking straight with a candidate, about how we do things and what we're looking for, and they just nod their head, like I'm going through BS rituals that your stereotypical MBA thinks is professional to say but not mean... I will be sad.

And if, while they're BSing me, they're congratulating themselves on having "mastered how the game gets played"... I will be angry.

(This is another reason I won't Leetcode interview. It's signalling that the company is all about disingenuous baggery theatre.)

hobs

Unfortunately for you you work and live in an environment created by other companies and its likely that if your company succeeds its one acquisition or bad top level management play from invalidating everything you implicitly or even explicitly promised.

I have worked for "good companies" before - and they have a tendency to make money and be targets for bad companies, add enough zeroes and even the good guys sell.

denkmoon

Which are the non douchebag companies?

weinzierl

"I have been through layoffs where other people on my team, doing the same job I did approximately as well, got laid off. No explanation given for why them and not me. And it could happen to me at any time."

Usually there is a hidden variable that you don't know. It is your salary. That is why it sometimes looks surprising when senior roles are cut that look extremely valuable to the company from the outset. Maybe they were that valuable but still deemed to expensive.

marcusb

> Usually there is a hidden variable that you don't know.

This is frequently the case. I've worked at big employers (comparable in level of corporate-ness to Google if not absolute size) where the layoff process, roughly was:

1. Aggregate layoff target gets set and apportioned amongst functional leaders, then targets cascaded down to the line manager level.

2. Managers fill out a stack ranking spreadsheet for their team across a few metrics including a boolean "diversity" field[0]. There were many rumors about the "diversity field", most notably that anyone so flagged would not be fired, but so far as I could tell these were false (see point #4)

3. People to be fired are developed based on these lists (I.e., if a manager has to fire two people, then the two lowest-ranked employees per the spreadsheet are selected.)

4. HR does a meta-analysis of all to-be-fired employees, ensuring that a disproportionate number of employees from protected classes are not impacted. If too many are, then some of the next-lowest-ranked employees are selected to be fired in their stead.

As far as I could tell, the only part of the process where any sort of individual, human consideration was occurring was maybe at the line manager level if they decided to tweak the stack rankings based on who they felt deserved to be protected. And then, to the extent that happens, you have all the problems with bias and favoritism that come into play.

0 - I realize this is probably controversial, but I saw it with my own eyes.

ricardobeat

For some perspective, the bulk of this is simply illegal in the Netherlands, likely other countries in the EU as well:

- layoff plans must be communicated ahead of time. Minimum 30 days notice, usually much more

- Needs to be negotiated with worker representatives (works council, syndicate if there is one)

- LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible

- Any kind of discrimination is forbidden

- At a minimum, you get 2 months pay + accrued holidays

It's baffling to imagine that you could learn about your job disappearing from one day to the next, and be immediately left out in the cold.

goldchainposse

> diversity field

If this was even in the spreadsheet, whether or not it were used, the current administration would love to hear about it.

mistrial9

ok, and also "big thieves hate little thieves." Very-well paid executives (stock) remove very well paid employees (salary) and benefit from the actions. This is an old situation in industrial business -- the high tech crowd are filled with self-grandeur and do not believe it, on a large scale IMHO.

lazide

Eh, or you could think of it as ‘cut 10 people to move the needle x percent, or cut 1’.

If you need to hit a specific number, guess which one is going to be less paperwork….

lazide

The part here too is ‘valuable to whom’. If they can saddle the middle manager or director with the same responsibilities/expectations, while cutting 10% (say) of the costs - guess what they are going to do.

Is it ultimately short sighted? Probably. But good luck connecting point A and point B in these situations when everyone is thinking quarter to quarter.

BurningFrog

You spend half your waking hours at work.

Having a shitty attitude for that much of your life is no way to live.

saghm

On the contrary, being stuck in a situation where your livelihood can disappear at a moment's notice due to factors beyond your control is no way to live, but it's also not really something most people will ever be able to avoid. I don't at all buy into the idea that somehow pretending the situation isn't shitty is somehow more virtuous or fulfilling; what you call a "shitty attitude" sounds more like "being realistic about how one's work is valued" to me.

roenxi

> being stuck in a situation where your livelihood can disappear at a moment's notice due to factors beyond your control is no way to live

That is literally the only way to live. Disaster stalks us an is only ever one misstep away (sometimes literally). In rare instances people can even just fall over and die.

In the sense that there should be food and shelter for everyone, even poor people; strictly speaking I think most countries have already agreed to that. Although how well that gets implemented is open to a lot of debate. But beyond that everything can always change at a moments notice.

BurningFrog

I've spent several decades writing software. Got laid off 1-2 times per decade.

I still tried doing a good job every day, and feel very good about that.

To me, being realistic about the risk of losing my job at any time means having enough money that I can be unemployed for 6-12 months.

The major way good programmers get jobs is by being recommended by people they've worked with at previous companies. That doesn't happen if you deliberately do as little good work as you can get away with.

My "shitty attitude" comment is maybe more a personal philosophy that something universal. But I do not want to spend each work day being bitter and resentful. You may intend to punish your shitty employer, but I think you're mostly poisoning your own mind.

ivraatiems

Working hard for a place that will not reward me is no way to live.

And with less dedication, I can spend far less than half my time there ;)

thawawaycold

Nor is sticking your head in the sand.

nine_k

Check out the book called "The Gervais Principle" which develops this kind of cynical approach to a significant depth.

jimt1234

I've noticed a disturbing trend in the last year or so where a company announces a significant layoff, saying it needed to let go of "underperforming employees" or similar wording. I've been in this industry for a long time, experienced several layoffs, but this way to announce a layoff (publicly calling-out "underperforming employees") feels new to me. It also feels shady - like, announcing to the industry, "Don't hire these losers we just got rid of. LOL"

windward

You're right but our current model of society depends on there being people who don't ask the same question.

javawizard

That was painful to read.

I had a very similar experience at Google about a year ago, and the worst part of it was that they did it 2 weeks before I was set to receive a 6-figure retention bonus for sticking around for 2 years after an acquisition.

Several other members of my team got the boot at the same time. All of us had come in via that acquisition and were set to receive that bonus, and because of the layoffs, none of us did. Folks I talked to on the inside stopped just short of saying that was why we were chosen.

It was especially galling because years before at the company that eventually got acquired by Google, I survived a round of layoffs, and leadership issued stay bonuses for everyone who was left. Those bonuses explicitly stated that they were still valid in the event that we were laid off before their time period was up.

Big companies are soulless.

singron

It might be too late now, but I've successfully negotiated (before signing) retention deals like this to be pro-rated in the event of non-voluntary termination. It's perfectly reasonable for exactly this reason, and companies have no legitimate reason to deny it.

gedy

Agreed, this is/should always be the deal basically - "here's a bonus so you stay while we transition" is the only reason many folks stay post aquisition. It should not be revokable, especially last minute.

aeyes

To me its a massive red flag that Google would promise a cash bonus 2 years in the future, they could have given stock with an appropriate vesting schedule for retention. All the retention deals I have seen were done like this, only for the very short term (less than 6 months) a cash bonus makes sense.

yesimahuman

Might be worth talking to a lawyer. Sorry to hear that, absolutely maddening

pjdemers

The only retention bonuses I ever seen were to be paid in immediately, in full on involuntary termination. There was a "for cause" clause where bonuses don't get paid for termination with a cause, but the causes were listed in writing.

jmyeet

You should consult a lawyer about this. You might be SOL but if this happened to several people, you might be able to show the company didn't act in good faith because there's a pattern of people about to receive their bonus being laid off. Layoffs aren't meant to work that way.

Generally layoffs involve someone who doesn't know who you are picking names almost at random from a spreadsheet. Management may fight for certain people to stay. Then legal and HR get involved and look through the layoff list to see if the chosen employees are problematic. For example, if the layoffs include too many people from protected classes, which opens them up to being sued. For example, if your company is 20% women but the layoffs are 50% women, that's going to be an issue.

Avoiding paying substantial retention bonuses can work the same way, if a pattern can be shown.

A simple letter from a lawyer probably won't do anything. Large companies are prepared for that.

For anyone who does come across this, here's my best advice: if you are acquired and your new employment contract includes a retention bonus, you want that contract to say that the retention bonus is payable unless:

1. You leave voluntarily within that period; or

2. You are terminated with cause within that period.

Otherwise, you should get it.

vonneumannstan

>2. You are terminated with cause within that period.

Are layoffs considered to be with cause?

cmrdporcupine

Yes as a person who had such a retention bonus before (from Google even) to me this seems rather cut and dry. Usually such bonuses are a mix of cash and RSUs, and set over a 3-4 year period. And are often also based on a perception of what the employees existing options were in the startup that they came from.

IMHO they should absolutely be paid out the whole amount of the remaining retention bonus at layoff. On the principle of things alone. Can't speak to the legality of it.

ncr100

Awful experience.

What is interesting is our denial, as (ex-)corporate employees, that the corporation is NOT FAMILY...even though we may feel it is.

> Big companies are soulless.

"And God created the C Corporation" -nowhere in the Bible / Koran / Hinduism / Buddhism / Torah

I feel this lesson keeps being re-learned by us people / workers ...

VagabundoP

Did you sue? Because that's bullshit. The retention agreement should have included that clause anyway.

CharlieDigital

Agreed. If companies could do this, then they'd never pay out a retention rider.

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cmrdporcupine

That's awful and the most amazing thing you could do now is get together with those ex-coworkers or similar people and compete with Google in whatever business domain it was that made them acquire your former employer.

Because, having been through the acquisition process at Google myself, my general cynical take is: Google acquires companies to get rid of them, to stop them from competing and not to "add your uniqueness to their collective."

Keeping employees on retention bonuses is a way, in aggregate, of stopping them from going off and inventing something that eats their bottom line.

You should look into legal action. And failing that, compete with them.

jillesvangurp

I experienced something similar at Nokia around the time things were starting to go bad (due to competition from Google and Apple). I got caught up in one of the earlier layoff rounds. As I've been able to reconstruct since then what happened was roughly that:

- I got a excellent performance review and a small raise. All good, keep on doing what you are doing! I was pretty happy.

- Nokia started to prepare for layoffs and gave units targets for numbers of people to lay off and amounts of money to save. They tried to spread the pain.

- Because of my team's multi site setup the choice came down to cutting at one of two sites. They picked my site. Management was concentrated at the other site.

- Because I was at the higher end of the spectrum in terms of salary, I was one of the natural choices for laying off. This was just done based on the numbers and had nothing to do with performance.

So, my bosses boss flew over to give us the news and that was it. Nokia was pretty nice about it. I was put on immediate gardening leave, I got the usual severance payment based on time served, and a decent amount of start up funding in the form of a grant.

Since things were chaotic, other teams in the same site were still hiring new people with roughly the same qualifications. I was actually bucketed in with a project I wasn't even a part of. That whole project got shut down and apparently it was convenient to pretend I was working on that just so they could avoid firing other people in different parts of the organization. Somebody had to solve a big puzzle and I was a piece that fit in the right place. It wasn't personal.

In retrospect, one of the best things Nokia could do for me was firing me. I was coasting and the whole thing forced me to rethink what I was doing. If you are late thirties and a bit comfortable in your job, you might want to make a move. Or at least think about what you would do if you were forced to suddenly.

Lesson learned: job security is an illusion and employment relations are business relations. Don't take it personal. These things happen. Part of a high salary is insuring yourself against this kind of stuff and dealing with it when it happens. Part of the job.

windward

>job security is an illusion

It really is. Even government and blue chips aren't safe. In fact, those are where you'll find it's the most disconnected from your own agency.

sublimefire

Government jobs are safe because rarely if ever people get fired.

spacemadness

This comment is hilarious. Like someone was placed in a time machine and missed the last few months.

jrockway

Except for like the last 3 months!

Loughla

Until whole departments get gutted on the whims of a new executive or their political appointee department head.

And I'm not just talking about Trump. Every mayor, governor, what have you. They all appoint their friends to high places.

insomniacity

> decent amount of start up funding in the form of a grant

This is fascinating? What was it in absolute terms, or relative to your base salary?

Did you have to have a viable startup idea and it was paid to the incorporated company? Or was it just extra cash in your personal bank account?

Did you do that, or did you just get another job?

mixermachine

> job security is an illusion

Depends a bit on your country. My CEO can fire me but there is a longer notice period depending on how long I have been with the company.

- 2 years: 1 month

- 5 years: 2 months

- 8 years: 3 months

...

- 20 years: 7 months

Germany btw.

rwmj

That's pretty wild. Is that a German employment law or something specific to your company?

rkozik1989

It's probably an employment law. My wife's from Tunisia and over there all employment is basically contractual. If your employer lets you go they owe you some kind of fee, and I actually believe the amount might be the remainder of the contact, I'm not sure.

shadowgovt

It's employment law.

Germans are so expensive to hire and maintain that companies have offshored German manufacturing to the United States.

(... And God bless Germany for it. Trickle-down theory doesn't work in general in capitalism but it does work in labor negotiations: every right Germans secure for themselves is a right an American company employing Germans and other countries has to abide by when doing business, and it incentivizes the company to minimize their paperwork by treating everyone to the German standard).

kouteiheika

Right, okay, let's look at their most recent SEC filling to see how much money they lost in 2024 to justify layoffs... right, they made 350 billion in revenue (the highest ever in their history from what I can see) with a 100 billion in net income. Yep, this checks out, they definitely need to lay off people, can't afford them.

slivym

They're not a charity. What do you want them to do? Hire $100Bn worth of engineers until their net income is 0? The possibly difficult truth at Google is that there's probably <1% of the company that is really essential to their monopolistic search business. The rest are either working on other projects which might be strategically interesting but not essential, or are working on the core product but not in a way that's driving business. Is it wrong for the management to say "We need to be efficiently investing shareholder capital" or for the market to be looking at Google and saying "We want your money spinning monopoly business please, not your eccentric other bets thanks".

snsjsjsjdj

> Is it wrong for the management to say "We need to be efficiently investing shareholder capital" or for the market to be looking at Google and saying "We want your money spinning monopoly business please, not your eccentric other bets thanks".

On some level yes. With the massive disparity in who owns the markets, your argument is basically “Is google doing a good job of making the rich richer?”. Hiring H1Bs and offshoring while firing American labor is not a good look.

Why keep a company like that around?

int_19h

Now take it one step further. Google and other large megacorps are merely the inevitable outcome of capitalism running to its logical conclusion. So the real argumenmt is, “Is capitalism doing a good job of making the rich richer?”, and the obvious question for the rest of us then is, why keep an economic system like that around?

nyarlathotep_

This is an important point.

Especially overt the last two (three now?) years, it's become pretty apparent many software jobs are superfluous, even those that are ostensibly "skilled" or "difficult."

I do wonder what the actual "needed" number of technical staff these companies would have in a perfectly "efficient" environment. Let's hope we don't have to find out.

Workaccount2

Twitter was the experiment. Elon showed up and started cutting headcount left and right. People were even encouraged to just walk out. On paper this was supposed to lead to the immanent collapse of it's service.

That didn't happen and instead every other tech CEO started to wonder about the amount of fat in their org.

cmrdporcupine

It's a question of what kind of business Google is/wants-to-be.

The one it claimed to be, in the past, with a broader holistic mission, claiming to attract the world's brightest to make information accessible? Using its hoard of cash to do a bunch of neat stuff and hire really smart people do it?

Or is it what we always suspected all along, a cynical money printing machine that turns ad impressions into shareholder value and nothing else?

It's always been a mix of both. Those of us who worked there certainly saw in the inside the gradual transition of the internal discourse from "justifying B to support A" to "who cares about A."

They can do whatever they want, they're a private business. But they still trade on a certain reputation, and have the advantage of a quasi-monopoly status in many things.

I would hope that advancing them any kind of good will as any kind of "special" company (which our profession tended to do, before) and muting criticisms is just over now.

They built their money printing machine in part by swallowing competition and exterminating it.

kouteiheika

> What do you want them to do? Hire $100Bn worth of engineers until their net income is 0?

Take responsibility for the people they hired and have an ounce of human decency and empathy?

Don't need extra people? Fair enough. Then stop hiring! No one is pointing a gun to their head telling them to hire. Layoffs (for reasons unrelated to people's job performance) is such an asshole thing to do because with a competent/non-sociopathic management it's completely unnecessary, as you can just do a hiring freeze, and your headcount will reduce by itself through normal attrition.

The management of a lot of corporations acts this way, prioritizing "shareholder value" over people while giving exuberant bonuses to themselves, and then they make a surprised pikachu face when people hate them and individuals like Luigi Mangione come out of the woodwork and take matters into their own hands.

Remember in 2014 when Nintendo was having huge financial troubles? What did the CEO do? Did he fire half of his people? No, he kept his people, halved his own salary and kept going. And this was when they were losing massive amounts of money, and not breaking revenue records making 100 billion in profit. That is how a CEO and a leader should act, and not like the sociopath CEOs we have nowadays.

shadowgovt

Google's strategy, traditionally, was basically what you're describing (modulo the "until their net income is 0" part). Because their belief about engineering was if you get all the smart people and give them some creative freedom, they invent Gmail. And Tensorflow. And Kubernetes.

This has changed. But it's worth noting it is a change. Larry and Sergey retained controlling stakes in Google's IPO specifically because they intended to build a company that didn't operate like other companies... In essence, they didn't plan to give two shits about shareholder capital, they expected the money would work itself out if they just kept making brilliant products people wanted.

But, the founders have left and Google is now just another company.

cmrdporcupine

Yes, and they're still hiring too, while doing this at the same time.

As a person who worked there for a long time, I never thought it was a good idea how rapidly they hired and never felt they needed that many people.

But the layoff process has been sadistic.

And the people who made the decisions to hire like crazy are not paying the consequences. In fact it feels very much like they're using this as an opportunity to push the median average age and compensation level of their staff down. Moving more and more positions to lower cost regions, and hiring younger developers while ditching higher paid senior staff.

Today's Google really sucks.

wffurr

>> the people who made the decisions to hire like crazy are not paying the consequences

They should have been first out the door, but Sundar is part of the problem.

jiveturkey

This is incorrect thinking. Over-hiring is very easily corrected. You are weighting the 'human' in human resources too much. It's 'resources' that gets the emphasis.

This is a success at Sundar's level.

concordDance

While the manner of layoff, role of layoff and person to lay off all seem foolish, profits do not mean that layoffs are a bad idea. You should hire people you need and if you want to good in the world, donate to the most effective charities (in QALYs/£).

minraws

I have been in a similar situation, on a Saturday morning right after a farewell for a colleague and planning for next big release and timelines, late Friday.

I got an email from my company early on next Saturday, so I tried to log into my laptop which was now wiped(to my horror).

At that very moment I checked my DMs and realized most of my team was out the door.

No warnings, no justification. I had been promised promotion, I had been promised growth, and I had already seen a round of layoffs with promises to not do more. We were the "valued" members and we were needed.

Well not so much I guess.

Now I don't care, tbh maybe I still do. I want to, just not care though, and I am always prepared, if even a single bad sign comes up I will be out. But I don't know if I will still see it coming.

I just want to tell to anyone else in a similar situation, don't be sad often it might be a good thing.

I managed to land jobs within the same month and my next job paid me over 2x my previous one. And it helped me grow in my career.

I have changed a lot more jobs till date and I love what I do now, but I still often care too much.

I hope people can find hope here.

Also a couple of my friends had similar luck and one of my former colleagues also now has a startup of their own, they built it on top of their open source project that got surprisingly popular.

Best of luck, world can be rough but, I hope folks just don't stop trying to do something to improve it for themselves and rest of us.

And F execs, I guess. :)

mont_tag

ISTM software engineers have been living in a privileged and elite world. They are then utterly shocked to be treated like employees are treated elsewhere.

Pretty much anywhere if you are let go, your email access and physical access are cut off immediately. Start-ups do this all the time as funding gets tight or there is a need to pivot.

I get that this sucks (and have been on the both the dishing out side of this and the receiving end of it multiple times). It is a fact of life. It would be more mature to move on rather than blog about how you feel wronged by your former employer. The next employer may see this post and reason that it is unsafe to hire this person because they feel a need to damage the company's reputation on the way out (for Google, there isn't much risk here, but for smaller companies, threats to the reputation matter).

ygouzerh

> It's a fact of life

I will argue the contrary. Companies with US mindset makes us think that.

Countries with social safety net have a better way of handling it. Even in the country where I am now living, Hong Kong, which is very liberal, half of the companies let you have 1 month of notice period.

winrid

And even in China the layoff policy for pregnant women is way more humane than in the US.

ncr100

> It is a fact of life. It would be more mature to move on rather than blog about how you feel wronged by your former employer.

+1.

While there is an imaginable "victim" viewpoint, it is a job for pay with a clear employment contract that was agreed to before employment start, between the Employee and the Corporation, including local and state and federal laws, permitting EXACTLY THIS type of termination.

Further, corporations can't be seen to Favor one Googler vs another. Especially since there is NO GUARANTEE this Ex-Googler isn't one of those AR-15 toting weirdos who condone violence against their now ex-coworkers .. so allowing them futher access to the (huge) universe that Google owns and controls .. its corporate workings .. even for an additional 5 seconds after termination, can be reasonably seen to be Foolish .. so they would cut ties Immediately.

HdS84

Honestly, the problem is not that there are layoffs, the problem is that the process sucks.

you don't need to fire this person immediately - you can talk to him, wind his operations down and then let him go. I.e. in Germany it's often half a year between announcing a layoff and anything happening (besides other stuff like making sure the layoff applies to the newest people first). Even if you don't want such a long period - talking to him and giving him a few weeks to wind down at your firm and starting to search for a new job seems perfectly reasonable. What happens if he wreaks havoc on your firm out of revenge? Really? Happens practically never. If it happens, sue him.

ofc this process applies to reasonable layoff - if it's for something egregious (breaking the law) you can and should fire him immediately.

gedy

> ISTM software engineers

Probably not the International Society of Travel Medicine, what's the abbreviation?

xdavidliu

https://bulletin.gwu.edu/courses/istm/

Information Systems and Technology Management

I've also never heard anyone say this though, but I'm guessing that's what they meant.

gedy

Other reply pointed out "It Seems To Me" which seems reasonable.

patternMachine

It seems to me

alexey-salmin

Internet Search and Tele Marketing

tmathmeyer

Internet Technology and Social Media, I would guess.

mystifyingpoi

> Relationships that took me years to cultivate… mostly going to be gone too.

I don't want to sound condescending, but if being forced out of the job means end for your relationships built for years, maybe these relationships weren't built as they should. They should have been built with the people as people, not coworkers, and definitely not using company as the communication ground.

roncesvalles

Most relationships do not survive being ripped away from the spatial and temporal context in which they were cultivated. How many of your middle school, high school and even college buddies do you still have a relationship with?

I think there's some stigma with confronting the fact that relationships are just ephemeral. We are social creatures in the sense that we can cooperate with each other on a task laid in front of us, but once that task is done, we mostly tend to drift apart onto the next task with another group of people. And that's okay. We're only weakly social with everyone except our direct family and significant others. The quality of a relationship is in no way measured by how long it endured.

torginus

You are right but I think there's a fundamental issue that many people think that 'as long as I keep showing up and doing good work, the powers that be will look out for me'.

By default work relationships work as you advertised. It needs conscious effort on your (and everyone's) part to reframe these relationships as something that's between you and your friends, on your own terms. Consciously hanging out together, talking to each other, doing projects together outside the context of work. Social relationships need to be built up with effort. The company will do this for you, because they enjoy the benefits of a crew that works well together, but if they put in the effort, the relationship will belong to them. You will think that 'I could get slightly more at this other place, but I like my colleagues here', realizing you'd lose the social net if you changed jobs.

I think a huge problem with nerds (like me and probably you), is that we don't understand the fundamental power dynamics that shape society, because we lack the inherent cunning and weren't forced to face down enough hardship to have our illusions shattered until later in life.

Truth is, if there are rules, somebody needs to enforce them. If something nice happens, it does because somebody makes it happen. These things are mental abstractions designed to make your life predictable, but like every abstractions, sometimes things happen that were supposed to be impossible, because the system doesn't work the way you think it does.

mystifyingpoi

> Most relationships do not survive being ripped away from the spatial and temporal context

I think this is very true, and with college buddies it's very different from workmates. Because in college, you are with them at classes, but then you hang out with them between classes, then you meet them in cafeteria, then you meet them at a party or in the student club, then you meet them at dormitory etc. All these contexts are different and that helps to build more diverse relationship, which is not focused on a single place.

At work, in my experience I'll meet them in the office and then maybe wave a hand on the way out of the parking lot, if ever.

AstralStorm

And then, it turns out these people actually move, try to raise a family and work, and then you rarely keep in touch.

This is the big thing, work opportunities tend to get people to move whole cities away, and long distance relationships like this tend to not survive.

dennis_jeeves2

>relationships do not survive being ripped away from the spatial and temporal context in which they were cultivated.

Very true, but also very unfortunate. The best people (a teeny almost non-existent minority) are not like that.

>weakly social with everyone except our direct family and significant others.

For a large number of people, (say 50 %) I suspect this is not true. Especially when people move from rural to urban areas.

dietr1ch

> Most relationships do not survive being ripped away from the spatial and temporal context in which they were cultivated.

Just being far away makes maintaining relationships really hard. Introverted people rely on being dragged into socialising, which goes poof not being in the same place.

jongjong

My wife is really good at keeping friends even those she didn't see in years. She has many such friends and she speaks to them over video chat. I have a few long term friends like that but not so close.

milesrout

>How many of your middle school, high school and even college buddies do you still have a relationship with?

All the ones that were true friends, and none of the ones that were just friendly acquaintances.

riffraff

I see where you're coming from, but relationship need some amount of contact to survive.

Work forces you to be in contact, if the majority of your time is spent elsewhere due to changing job, or city, or gym, or having kids.. it's a blow.

I try to keep in touch with ex co-workers I cared about, but we live in different countries, at different stages in life, with different priorities, and it's hard to say the relationship is well.

That doesn't mean the relationships weren't built as they should, IMHO, they are just different kinds of relationships.

neilv

That sentence caught my eye too.

First thought was whether they meant corporate political capitol transactional relationships.

Second thought was maybe they meant that, inevitably (or so it seems, probably thinking depressed), they'd drift apart, since everyone's busy with family and work, and around the workplace was the only times they'd have to interact.

In the latter, even if you have beyond-work social relationships, the opportunities to interact outside of work and the lunchtime might tend to be like "drinks after work", and effectively disappear as well. If that was your mode while working together, that's fine, and probably you don't want to see even more of each other then. That doesn't mean you weren't seeing them as people beyond coworkers. So, once no longer working with each other, you both need to actively change things to make opportunities to interact.

mystifyingpoi

> the opportunities to interact outside of work and the lunchtime

Good point. I wonder how much in-office work contributes to this. Because if you are trapped inside an office building for 8+ hours with essentially randoms, most people will start getting to know each other at some point, because there is no other choice, and after work and commute there is no time left for anything else.

I feel sad for the author.

AstralStorm

8 hours if you're lucky. Make that 10 if you're not because of breaks.

So the 40 hour work week gives rather little time to properly socialize, even less if you have family obligations esp. kids, especially when people move around as much as they do now.

hnbad

Corporations like Google certainly encourage a focus on in-group relationships between employees to reduce churn (i.e. increase stakes for disgruntled employees who might consider quitting). The entire idea of having scheduled leisure activities, daycare, laundry services, etc all provided either by the company or facilitated through the company encapsulates current employees and gently excludes former employees, which likely helps reduce their ability to spread or air negative sentiments following their departure (which apparently can be fairly rapid, which also means fired employees will be stunned and possibly in shock for the limited duration where they may still have access to other employees directly).

There's a reason the "employee retention" behavior of companies like Google and Facebook during the web 2.0 craze was often compared to actual cults.

ErigmolCt

I get where you're coming from, but I think it's a little more complicated than that.

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JohnMakin

This is a wild read for someone that has spent the bulk of their career as a "mercenary" for small to mid-size largely non-tech companies (e.g., their product wasn't purely technical) and no matter what the official company Koolaid line was, you always know you are one "restructuring" away from being made redundant, the company doesn't give a crap about you or your contributions, and you very much are a "cog." I've been blessed to work for a company or two where this was less the case than others, and more or less bought into their own culture hype, but it's still fundamentally this way, the relationship between employer and employee. It's sad and interesting to me to see what sounds like an experienced developer for such a large company coming to this realization all at once. Given what I've read and learned about Google layoffs since ~2022 this seems pretty bog standard large company stuff.

Everyone is replaceable/expendable, even if you actually aren't, it doesn't matter. It isn't worth investing so much emotional energy and your personal identity into a company unless you are a major shareholder.