Comparing economic inequality between the Roman Empire and the Han Dynasty
72 comments
·April 10, 2025lolc
inglor_cz
If the culture in question inhumates their dead, there is some chance to map the real structure of the population from excavated cemeteries. Exceptions still apply (executed criminals or suicides were often buried around the gallows instead of in cemeteries), but this is still a reasonable way to sample populations.
Cultures that prefer cremation, uh, that gets really complicated. We can't tell female ashes from male, nor tell the age of the deceased from them, even if the urn makes it through the centuries unscathed.
And with cultures that prefer more destructive burials (e.g. Parsis, where the dead are eaten by carrion fowl), there is basically zero chance.
lupusreal
Pre-Christian Rome tended to burn their dead, so no such luck.
Y_Y
Is there some assumption here that inequality is bad? Or that there's some ideal number? Or that there's a meaningful comparison with modern economies?
I see "inequality" as a concept like "uncertainty", it can be pointed to as the source of social and economic issues, but only is undesirable that rain is seen as undesirable weather. Nobody likes being on the wrong end of these, but they are inevitable and natural (to some extent) and I think we're better off trying to acheive a society that works with an equilibrium wealth distribution. Umbrellas rather than weather control machines.
RivieraKid
The main argument against consumption inequality is that it's suboptimal in terms of average happiness / utility / well-being. If I spend $1M per month and transfer $1k of that spending to someone who spends $1k per month, average well-being would increase.
In the US, the top 10% are responsible for 50% of consumption. This means that higher redistribution can increase the spending of the bottom 90% by X% at the cost of decreasing the spending of the top 10% by X% (assuming no decrease in total production).
Of course, redistribution has negative effects too, I don't know what level of redistribution is optimal.
moonlet
Well as shown by the original Communists, total redistribution just lets greedy people on the inside skim off the top. A taxation system with a properly constructed social safety net on the other hand, which is what I think you’re describing, is one where the wealthiest pay in the most and the least wealthy receive sufficient aid to get by.
decimalenough
A society where everybody can create wealth ends up far richer than one where one person hoards it all. So, yes, extreme inequality is bad for everybody, even those at the top of an unequal society.
Most people view the Nordics as desirable places to live and their Gini coefficient hovers around 0.3, while places with very high inequality, like Brazil and South Africa, tend to be poor and violent.
MacsHeadroom
Nordic countries are made of homogeneous populations whose ancestors somewhat uniquely developed prosocial long term planning preferences to survive harsh winters thanks to natural selection.
Nordic equality is as natural as the inequality we see everywhere else.
dsign
> Nordic countries are made of homogeneous populations
Once upon a time, it was so. Today, not so much. If that's a good or a bad thing, it's an entirely different can of worms. I think diversity in the Nordics is beautiful, but Japan has managed without it and they have great artisans.
In the Nordics, in addition to long barbaric winters, having long barbaric Middle Ages helps foster social discipline. See what beloved King Vasa of Sweden did to peasants that weren't happy with their Gini coefficient:
Jensson
I think it has more to do with boat culture, when you are on the same boat you all die the same if it sinks no matter the ranks.
angra_mainyu
> Nordic countries are made of homogeneous populations
Something like 25%-32% of Sweden is non-ethnic Swedish.
Maybe once upon a time they were homogeneous, but they are probably one of the most heterogeneous countries (outside of the New World countries, which are an entirely different category), though I'd wager most of Western Europe is catching up (see: UK, France, Germany, Belgium, Spain).
findthewords
Resource inequality and thus wealth inequality is rather bad because one person is generally unable to allocate resources efficiently after a certain point of excess. Resource inequality leads to inefficient resource allocation.
kibwen
It's easy to see that with an unbounded amount of wealth, a single actor can keep a market irrational for an unbounded amount of time. Even with realistic (finite) amounts of wealth, this actor can keep a market irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
In general, markets can only work when people are averse to the loss of money, thereby introducing a feedback mechanism. And people are only averse to the loss of money when that has material consequences for their well-being. For the ultra-wealthy today, the marginal value of every additional dollar (or million dollars) is essentially zero, so the self-balancing properties of markets are prevented from doing their job properly, namely the efficient allocation of resources.
cyberjerkXX
Your statement is a general misunderstanding of how markets work. The role of the market is not to be self balanced but to facilitate trade. Markets are voluntary exchanges between individuals and organizations. Markets work because people are ultimately the best at deciding their needs and wants during a specific time.
DeathArrow
>Resource inequality leads to inefficient resource allocation.
Why don't we follow evolutionary laws and let nature and competition tackle resource allocation?
Retric
Same reason people prefer neural networks over genetic algorithms, evolution is slow.
K0balt
Because of the intermingling of law and wealth. If you don’t intermediate, then justice becomes the will of the wealthiest, and the market stagnates. The only way that evolution works is if it is the highest and only law, so we would be warring individuals killing each other for resources on the daily.
As soon as you add social organization, you disrupt evolution inside that social unit: it then becomes one social unit vs others…. We’ve already been down that road, and now we live in large, relatively stable social units we call nations.
Anything inside a social unit is subject to the monopoly of coercion that the unit possesses over its members. Evolution is short-circuited by the presence of external existential forces.
Making evolution work inside a social unit is equivalent to dissolving it.
dfxm12
What does that look like, practically, considering how many rich people were born into an abundance of resources? Their survival is not a measure of fitness.
idiotsecant
I feel like people who espouse this sort of view often wildly over estimate their chance of not ending up with a pointy stick through an important organ.
We don't do that because we don't like seeing women and children get their brains beaten out with a large rock over a rabbit haunch that the bigger ape wanted.
cyberjerkXX
I’m constantly amazed at the socialist argument that forcibly taking the labor of some people to benefit other people is considered “efficient”
Also...
The idea that wealth hoarding inherently leads to inequality is flawed. If by “wealth” you mean capital, then unused capital doesn't distort markets or hinder wealth creation. If you're referring to wealth hoarding in the form of monopolies, it's important to note that monopolies tend to fail in truly free markets. Without innovation, they can't sustain themselves—unless they rely on government coercion to maintain control.
Government coercion is the primary force that inhibits both wealth creation and healthy competition. Overregulated markets and protectionist policies stifle innovation and prevent new players from entering the market. The most corrupt governments and corporations benefit from these systems because they reinforce existing power structures and shield them from competition.
Kbelicius
> I’m constantly amazed at the socialist argument that forcibly taking the labor of some people to benefit other people is considered “efficient”
That is also the stance of the capitalists. Have you heard of welfare? Now, have you heard about a successful capitalist society without some form of welfare?
adgjlsfhk1
the reason for this is simple.
1. "truly free markets" don't and can't exist.
In the absence of a strong government to create rules, companies and individuals will fill the power vacuum (e.g. the east India company). "free markets" are just as much of a fantasy as "Communist utopia".
2. Redistribution is less inefficient than the alternative
Without sufficiently redistributave policy, the alternatives arise. The French revolution and various communist revolutions throughout the world over the 20th century are the alternative to a populace that thinks inequality is too high.
tokai
Its well covered in scholarly literature that inequality reduce growth, health and social mobility, and increase violent crime. The naturalness of is meaningless, pneumonia is natural too.
rayiner
The link between inequality and crime is a maybe: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X2...
“To address this puzzle, I conducted a meta-analysis based on 1,341 estimates drawn from 43 studies in economics journals. The findings indicate a statistically significant but economically insignificant true effect of inequality on crime, ranging between 0.007 and 0.123 using UWLS FAT-PET and advanced methods. In essence, if there is an impact of inequality on crime, it is, at best, minimal.”
Y_Y
I'm not invoking the naturalistic fallacy, I'm saying that without external intervention economies will tend towards a non-uniform distribution of wealth. If you really desired to have everyone have the same amount of wealth you'd have to continually redistribute it, at some cost.
I don't know what exact scholarly literature you're referring to, but I'd guess that they're talking about local properties, i.e. starting from where we are increasing inequality would decrease growth etc.
On the other hand we know from history that technological and social innovation comes for production surpluses and specialisation allowing innovation. Taxing subsistence farmers to pay scientists and philosophers is cruel, but it seems to be how societal progress comes about. If you accept that (hopefully anodyne) premise then you'll agree that starting from relative wealth equality we can (long term) increase growth and social mobility and overall wellbeing by increasing inequality.
TFYS
Inevitability and naturalness are not valid arguments for anything, unless you think naturalness has intrinsic value. You probably don't, because then you'd be against most things humans do these days. Diseases are inevitable and natural, yet you don't see anyone rational using those facts as arguments against cures.
You also seem to assume that inequality has benefits (rain is good), but we haven't really had a truly equal society since we started farming. The attempts at communism were just as if not more unequal as anything we have today. We don't know what it would be like, we just assume and we just believe the ones benefiting from inequality when they tell us how everything would fall apart if we tried to pursue such a thing.
Any amount of inequality can be used as leverage to gain more power and increase inequality, so there's no way to have any natural equilibrium of inequality. People who have the most power will always seek more and be in the best position to get it. We need true equality to have an equilibrium.
Y_Y
I appreciate your points, and you correctly assume that I'm not treating naturality as an intrinsic good.
You may already appreciate this point, but I think that even without having a modern example of a truly equal society we can reason about what it might be like. Specifically I believe that it's been well argued (though I don't have a reference to hand) that wealth equality is an unstable equilibrium. It should follow from the tendency of inequality exacerbate itself, as you mention.
Of course you can make a the equilibrium stable with a sufficient restoring force, but I haven't been convinced that such a thing is possible. I would be glad to hear ideas on that though (maybe income/wealth tax with negative rates below the average and then a sharp increase?).
TFYS
My belief is that our inability to make good decisions collectively is what causes inequality to arise. Large groups of people don't have any way of making decisions beyond very simple ones with obvious answers. Because of this the group must give decision-making power to a smaller group, and the rise of inequality begins.
Before we can create an equal society without forcing it in some way, we need to figure out a system of decision-making that doesn't have to centralize power and can produce high quality decisions. Throughout history this has been impossible, but I think now with current technology it could be done if we put enough effort into it. A decision-making process in which anyone can participate, and which somehow makes sure participants have the required knowledge to make good decisions (or gathers all knowledge from participants and can figure out the good, relevant parts of it).
appleorchard46
Well yes, I do assume inequality is bad. In what situations / with what values is inequality a good thing?
esafak
To play the devil's advocate, one could argue you are attempting to subvert the natural order of things. Try making an argument for your case rather than shifting the burden.
edit: I'm saying don't just assume it. Otherwise I can simply assume the counterposition.
appleorchard46
OP asserted that equality amongst humans is not necessarily a good thing. I am not trying to argue otherwise - not yet, at least - I am asking them to expand upon and clarify the claim as to understand better.
Because I do assume equality to be a good thing; if that is an incorrect assumption I would like to know.
DoneWithAllThat
Income inequality is perforce a problem from a socialist worldview. So yes, for the sort of people who abhor capitalism, all income inequality (and class inequality) is bad.
Telemakhos
In the first two maps, there seems to be little difference between income per capita and income inequality: the regions with greater per capita income also show greater inequality. Is this because some people always end up at zero no matter the region, so that increasing per capita income from X (lower) to Y (higher) stretches the ranges of income from zero to Y and thus increases disparity?
epicureanideal
[flagged]
beloch
Roman elites were more like mafia bosses from "The Godfather" than princes. They typically started their day by hearing the petitions of those who were dependent on them. Roman elites were expected to compete with one another to produce public works, give handouts, and put on extravagant games. They were expected to serve in a sequence of public, military, and religious offices. Failure to do so could get their whole family drummed out of elite circles.
Roman elites made themselves wealthy through service to the empire, but they were expected to use that wealth to serve the public. Individuals who exploited the system to an extreme degree to amass wealth (e.g. Marcus Licinius Crassus) could tarnish their reputation. However, even Crassus died in military service trying (very dumbly) to attain the military glory that was expected of roman elites.
In the modern world, pretty much all responsibilities that the Roman elite served now rest on governments. Billionaires are free to amass obscene wealth with almost no social responsibility. There is no expectation, for example, that a billionaire should provide welfare or build a stadium out of his own pocket and provide free entertainment to the masses. Today's system works only if the rich pay their taxes and governments regulate them to prevent excesses on the level Crassus was famous for.
The rich in many countries are no longer paying much in the way of taxes and are subverting government power to free themselves of regulations. In the case of some countries, the rich are even seizing the reigns of power and undermining fundamental state institutions.
It's a recipe for revolution.
angra_mainyu
I think there is a bit of a false equivalence going on - Roman elites held immense power with far fewer human rights constraints compared to modern wealthy individuals. No, I do not accept hyperbolic wailing of the "being a wagie is literal slavery" sort.
1) slavery and ownership of lives: they could literally own slaves. No matter how much anyone will want to twist "working for corporate" as slavery, there is simply no comparison to such direct dominion.
2) magisterial power: consuls and praetors could even sentence people to death with barely any resistance. You're welcome to find me an example in the first world.
3) land and resource control: we are in an era where the masses have a much larger share of land and resource ownership compared to then (e.g: latifundia).
4) judicial immunity: yeah, we all know the legal system isn't perfect but you don't have the same extreme levels of abuse you had back then unless again, you appeal to corrupt 3rd world countries.
5) military command: I don't see the billionaires in the first world with their own personal armies.
inglor_cz
1, 2 and 4 are comparable to modern North Korea or Nazi Germany. The third, sort of, but with exceptions.
3, it depends, and 5 is really rare nowadays. The closest I can think of is the Wagner Group and the Akhmat Chechen units in Russia, and Wagner showed quite clearly why this privilege is dangerous to the rulers.
cess11
As an example of 2), Abdulrahman al-Awlaki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awla...
Or Nora al-Awlaki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nawar_al-Awlaki
Do you consider the state of Israel "first world"?
exe34
> You're welcome to find me an example in the first world.
You can get a one way ticket to a supermax in El Salvador even if you have the protection of the supreme court.
HPsquared
Noblesse oblige is the name for this concept: that traditionally, the wealthy were socially obligated to "give back".
This kind of "social obligation to share within the group" behaviour is seen all over the Animal kingdom too, not only in humans. The difficulty comes in scale and abstraction as we see today.
rqtwteye
“ There is no expectation, for example, that a billionaire should provide welfare or build a stadium out of his own pocket and provide free entertainment to the masses”
It’s the other way now. The taxpayers are paying for stadiums so the billionaires can charge a ton of money for entertainment
JumpCrisscross
> Roman elites made themselves wealthy through service to the empire, but they were expected to use that wealth to serve the public
Roman elites made their big bucks through governorships (corruption) and campaign (conquest).
> There is no expectation, for example, that a billionaire should provide welfare or build a stadium out of his own pocket and provide free entertainment to the masses
Philanthropy is absolutely an expectation, though I agree the noblesse oblige8 has decayed.
> rich in many countries are no longer paying much in the way of taxes*
Relatively, yes. In aggregate, the rich pay the lion’s share of taxes in the West.
> It's a recipe for revolution
To the extent we are, it’s towards an imperial transition where the elites take a greater share.
graemep
> Relatively, yes. In aggregate, the rich pay the lion’s share of taxes in the West.
Depends on your definition of rich, your definition of "lion's share" and where in the west.
In the UK 18% of government revenue comes from national insurance - which is an income tax only on earned income, and charged at a higher rate on people in lower tax bands.
Another 17% is from VAT. Yes, rich people will buy more stuff subject to VAT, but a much lower proportion of their incomes, and it falls a lot as incomes go up. I would guess it pretty much plateaus for the super-rich.
About 4% comes from council tax, which is per household with an adjustment for the value of the property you live in, and a that adjustment if far from proportionate and there is a maximum level that is far below the typical value of the residences of the rich. There is a penalty for owning multiple houses for personal use. Again, would plateau at some point.
About another 5% comes from fuel and tobacco alcohol duties. Rich people might have bigger cars, but they are also more likely to have EVs, and they do not drink more alcohol AFAIK and are less likely to smoke.
Only 23% comes from income tax which is the only clearly progressive tax - and that becomes less clear when you leave for exemptions and the greater ability of the rich to avoid it.
It would take a detailed analysis to figure this out.
Sources:
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/where-does-go...
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...
redczar
Relatively, yes. In aggregate, the rich pay the lion’s share of taxes in the West.
Your comment defeats the point you are trying to make. When talking about paying fair share or paying enough in taxes it’s the relative part that matters; not the aggregate.
roenxi
> Philanthropy is absolutely an expectation, though I agree the noblesse oblige8 has decayed.
Arguably nobless oblige has been embedded in the legal system. The expectation is there and expressed in the tax code. The philosophical process was the elites sat down, codified their obligations and called it "our taxes".
Ironically, big chunks of beloch's post is pointing out that billionaires have a huge amount of social responsibility under the modern system. They are expected to provide welfare and build stadiums. Just not administer the process.
inglor_cz
IIRC Major American universities get a lot of money from successful alumni. Isn't this an equivalent of the old fashioned Roman games and bread?
Today, we are collectively less into gladiators and more into colleges.
"The rich in many countries are no longer paying much in the way of taxes"
The taxation levels in OECD countries are way higher than whatever any Roman emperor could dream of, and the top 1 per cent usually pays ~ 30 per cent of the total income tax revenue.
JumpCrisscross
> Sounds like our elites should put some limits on themselves
America's 1% owns around a third of its assets [1]. We'd have to more than double that rate to approach ancient Rome.
We have problems with income inequality and political stability in the West. They are probably not informed by this comparison.
[1] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/visualized-the-1s-share-of-...
gsf_emergency_2
Given different bases (inevitable), it's easier to compare the Gini coeffs directly (though maybe no less misleading because of scale distortions)
From TFA:
The Roman Empire scored 0.46 and Han China scored 0.48. ... currently the Gini coefficient for the U.S. is 0.41.
JumpCrisscross
It’s comparing social positions in ancient societies, including one where a grain dole was the revolutionary social service, with income today. TFA isn’t the original source.
inglor_cz
Could. Beware of trying to read modern political topics in ancient history. It is a trend that never goes out of fashion, but complicates understanding of really distant times and polities.
Both Han China and the Roman Empire were fairly long-lived entities. The US hasn't even made it yet to half of Han China's lifespan, and maybe an eighth of the Roman state lifespan (too many people don't realize that Byzantium was a Roman state).
Deriving lessons from their longevity is tricky, though. The structure of the economy changed profoundly in the meantime. For example, in absence of engines, every old empire would require a large body of non-free labour to even exist.
Literacy and easier sharing of information is yet another thing that happened in the meantime. For example, country-wide rebellions are feasible, even though not necessarily more successful. If Spartacus could broadcast his message all over the Empire, his revolt could have ended up very differently.
We take it for granted that continent-wide politics is basically synchronous. That wasn't the case when it took months to reach the outskirts of the realm. An eager outpost commander could start a war without the metropolis even knowing, much less condoning his action.
yanko
Empire start declining when empire interest payment on its debt start exceeding its military budget
JumpCrisscross
> Empire start declining when empire interest payment on its debt start exceeding its military budget
Not relevant to the ancient Romans or Han.
vintermann
Interest payment to who?
Fun thing to study and read about. The differences are quite small though. Wouldn't the error bars dwarf the differences? I'd assume you could tweak various assumptions and easily arrive at another conclusion.
I know that the Romans were good at record keeping for their time. But I understand the best population estimates for the Roman empire are based on economic metrics like agricultural modeling which in turn must make assumptions about wealth distribution. As for the Han, I don't think they've left us a complete census either.
To quote "How Many People? Ancient Demography" [0]:
> We generally estimate uncounted women, children and elderly males by using demographic modeling based on model life tables – data tables which project mortality simulations based on real-world populations. But how do you know what tables to use? The answer here has typically been that you comb the evidence you have (grave inscriptions, fragmentary census records that survive in Egypt) to create a statistical snapshot of your population and then try to match that, as best you can, to one of the extant models that ‘best fits.’ [...]
> That leaves the question of how many enslaved persons and those too poor to be counted in some of our figures.
[0] https://acoup.blog/2023/12/22/collections-how-many-people-an...