Symmetry between up and down quarks is more broken than expected
29 comments
·March 29, 20251970-01-01
BrouteMinou
That would be a good action, but from all the possibilities, this is not happening.
ptsneves
What are the consequences for this breakage? The article says current models do not easily fit the asymmetry but does not state what parts of our understanding will break if those models are wrong.
fpoling
Strong interactions are notoriously difficult to calculate from the first principles. So typically it is not done, but rather theoreticians try to guess the result and use the experimental data to partially fill the calculation gaps.
So I expect in this cases the guesses were wrong and the Standard Model will manage to explain that as well.
staunton
Working like that, it sounds like the standard model can explain literally anything...
jerf
It's not as bad as that. AIUI, the essence is, if you've ever seen the concept of a Feynman diagram and summing over all possible interactions, that works well for electromagnetism and some other interactions because the alternative terms fall off very quickly. For the strong interaction, they fall off so slowly that it takes massive amounts of computing power to walk through all the alternatives, essentially infeasible amounts of it. So we have to use some heuristics. If it turns out one of our heuristics was wrong, well, that's actually happened a number of times before.
So it's not quite as bad as "you just hit the model until it says what you want it to say". It's more "your shortcut broke so take less of a shortcut and you may discover that the standard model worked better all along than your shortcut". Which, again, has already happened multiple times.
In fact it is quite frustrating to physicists that the standard model always wins these fights. They'd love for it to break in some concrete manner, which is why they're always going on about this break or that break. As it stands now, in some sense, every time the standard model is vindicated it's a worst-case scenario for particle physics. It's not like there's a cartel trying to defend it... everyone would love to be the one who definitively broke it! It's virtually a guaranteed Nobel prize.
fpoling
So far nobody expected this effect so no attempts were made to derive at least the bounds on it from the first principles. With strong interactions it may require a lot (like many man-years) of efforts, but it will be eventually done if no plausible explanation can be given using semi-experimental models.
mystified5016
Well, it's intended to explain everything so, y'know.
exe34
the standard model isn't one thing, it's the sum total of human knowledge of particle physics. it's an equation with a gazillion terms - this is an adjustment to one of those terms. and yes, you can add terms for any new physics you discover, so technically you're right, but it's not a gotcha.
facile3232
> Strong interactions are notoriously difficult to calculate from the first principles.
??? Where does empiricism come in? Surely you need some kind of data to feed even raw assumptions. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting how "first principles" is employed here.
fpoling
The first principles here refer to the basic equations of the Standard Model. There were a lot of alternative theories in sixties and seventies but eventually they were disproven experimentally and only SM survived.
But the problem with SM is that when one deals with strong interactions, nobody so far came with good ways to calculate things. For example, in theory the mass of proton can be derived. But in practice it is not. So one uses that as an extra parameter and tries to use that to constrain calculations in other areas.
spartanatreyu
The data comes in two ways:
1. Hey these particles are interacting with each other (e.g. they attract each other, they repel each other, they combine or split apart into each other, etc...)
2. I have measured something about this interaction (e.g. how fast, how far, how likely, etc...) to within a certain degree of accuracy
Put them together and we have a sparse noisy list of forces, and a list of constants.
Then we come up with theories to explain and reduce the data to their simplest components.
Those theories occasionally spit out that there should be an interaction we haven't seen between some particles yet or a more accurate picture of an interaction we have already seen and we can run some experiments to see if the theory holds true in practice.
We can then check how well those theories work by their predictions.
- Gravity is just varying amounts of positive attraction over unlimited range (i.e. just a positive integer).
- Electromagnetism is varying amounts of positive or negative attraction over unlimited range. (i.e. just an integer)
The problem with strong interactions is that they get messy really fast. The energies and interactions involved are crazy.
- We have the quarks (which are the fundamental matter particles that the strong force interacts on)
- We have the gluons (which are part of the strong force itself)
- And the strong interactions: which are actually 3 different amounts of positive or negative attractions that must all balance out (i.e. a whole bunch of numbers), but they get stronger as they get further away to the point that new particles can be created to reduce the range between any two particles, oh and the gluons can also interact with each other complicating matters further.
tsimionescu
If the models are really wrong in a fundamental way and this can't be fixed by some tweaks in the free parameters (and this is a BIG if), then it's hard to predict what the consequences might be: the model is wrong, in a way that hasn't been extensively studied. How different a correct model might be is hard to predict.
nine_k
In particular, it's interesting if that may have help explain the prevalence of matter over antimatter around us.
bananapub
or you could just link to the actual press release from Actual CERN?
https://home.web.cern.ch/news/news/physics/symmetry-between-...
ars
BTW isospin is actually how many up vs down quarks they are. It's not a fundamental property like spin or charge.
It's an old term that was created before they knew that up and down quarks existed.
Personally I find the term outdated because there are 4 other quarks, and isospin only talks about two of them.
dudu24
This misses the point of isospin. Isospin is an approximate SU(2) symmetry due to the fact that the up and down quarks (the "light" quarks) have very similar masses compared to the rest of the quarks, so they can be approximated as two different eigenstates of the same particle. It's mathematically identical to the SU(2) symmetry of a spin-half particle. The reason it doesn't include the other quarks is because they are so much more massive.
floxy
ars
This video just drive home that using isospin and hypercharge is like using epicycles to describe the motion of the planets: It works, but it's overly complicated, and it's better to just use the actual thing (quarks, and heliocentrism).
pdonis
> using isospin and hypercharge is like using epicycles to describe the motion of the planets
No, it isn't; those are actual quantum numbers of the electroweak interaction below the symmetry breaking energy (the other such quantum number is electric charge).
westurner
Isospin symmetry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isospin #History :
> Isospin is also known as isobaric spin or isotopic spin.
Supersymmetry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry
Does the observed isospin asymmetry disprove supersymmetry, if isospin symmetry is an approximate symmetry?
null
Just gluon the broken symmetry and nobody will notice :)