Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

During the BLM protests US police realized that they could do serious injury with "nonlethal" rubber bullets. Several people lost eyes including a journalist.

> If injury is sufficient to resolve a situation, they weren't an imminent lethal threat.

That requires more explanation.

An injury could render someone with lethal intent and capability unable to perform.

Police also regularly use tear gas against US citizens. These are weapons that would violate the Geneva convention, but we're okay with them to disperse a crowd.

My American Citizen score card:

LRAD + Tear gas 2009

Tear gas 2017

Tear gas 2021

Still got the exhausted canister from 2009 as a souvenir. Carry a bottle of water, the tear gas rinses out quickly.

They have been used against US citizens in the United States? That is news to me.

If they have been used in other countries against US diplomatic corps that is an act of war.

Now if a US citizen uses a visit to a foreign country to protest against a government they’re on their own. I’m sorry, but US citizens shouldn’t be engaging in that and the US state department has no obligation to protect that condition.

Example: https://www.theblaze.com/news/general-mark-milley-pentagon-a...

Yes - we've got a long way to go with regards to these technologies.

It doesn't matter what it is, or where it's happening in the world, the conversation always comes back to the US. Always.

When?

Assuming average age distribution between 16 to 60 in the protesters, that leaves about 3 million non protesters in the same age distribution for serbia, with children and elderly making up the remaining population, which is around 6.7 million, give or take.

That's 1 out of 4 working age citizens hitting the streets - not all people, but a huge chunk. It's safe to say there are going to be a lot of sympathizers in the non-protesters, a lot of people who wanted to protest but couldn't. There are definitely those who support the government, but I'd wager they're less than 15% of the total population, with the rest in opposition, or at least not in support of the government.

The usual tipping point for revolution is lower - if 10-12% hits the streets, it's a strong signal that the movement behind that activity is taking power.

It is impossible for Russia to "lose" in Serbia. The vast majority of Serbs support Russia, and are pissed at their government for not supporting it enough.

If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? I'd either come back prepared for actual violence, or switch from protest to sabotage.

It just screams "escalation" to me.

It's a weapon meant to deny the use of an area by threatening non-selective permanent physical damage. There are very few legitimate civil use cases for something like that.

I don't find it acceptable for any reason whatsoever.

AI also has the potential to detect your every unique tic in a way that humans would be incapable of doing. You could be masked but your gait and other body movements will give you away, or at least place you in a statistically likely pool of suspects.

"Walk without rhythm and it won't attract the worm."

> e.g. if you know, with certainty, that heading out to a protest could lead to your instant termination from your job because a drone passed over and took a photo and identified all 100,000 people in the crowd instantly.. would you still go

The funny thing is that most people see this as a feature rather than a bug. Before the 2024 election the policies of most surveillance platforms roughly matched the culture of upper-middle-class Californians, so the argument was "if abusive technology is used to shut down opinions I don't like, I don't see a problem with that". Good luck explaining why such an attitude is a problem.

Chinese nuclear weapons, 2025

from: Nuclear Notebook, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

~ Hans M. Kristensen, Matt Korda, Eliana Johns, Mackenzie Knight | March 12, 2025

  The modernization of China’s nuclear arsenal has both accelerated and expanded in recent years.

  In this issue of the Nuclear Notebook, we estimate that China now possesses approximately 600 nuclear warheads, with more in production to arm future delivery systems.

  China is believed to have the fastest-growing nuclear arsenal among the nine nuclear-armed states; it is the only Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons that is significantly increasing its nuclear arsenal.

Also, the threshold laid out above was "erase an entire city" OR "make planet unihabitable".

Any nation or group with a first gen atomic weapon can erase a city .. exercising that ability can potentially lead to a greater nuclear exchange between others, particularly if it's unclear what happened and what might be about to happen.

China is growing their arsenal quickly. And frankly, more of their warheads may actually work than Russia's.

They already know words are meaningless and don't count for anything. Democrats have been trying to use words to get their way or even compromise and republicans fully understand they don't have to pay attention to them at all. Threats are laughable. If democrats had any power they would have used it. Their inaction is proof of their impotence.

Words don't matter, only actions matter. "upvotes don't count."

A street presence can barely be mustered.

Also if you start learning about history, you'll learn that "intellectuals" are the first people totalitarians crack down in precisely because of this threat you just made. So by the time you realize you need to make good on your threat, chances are it will be too late. Don't read about the Khmer Rouge killing fields or the Indonesian "communist" purge if you want to have a good day. American exceptionalism is fueling a "can't happen here" attitude that's fueling people's denial about our many potential futures. Inaction means that we aren't influencing what that future is. We are at someone else's whims. History doesn't tell you what will happen, but it tells you what can happen.

You're saying right now you're speaking softly, but carrying a big stick, so they better listen. I don't think you're carrying one, and the republicans purging the old guard and replacing them with loyalists don't think you are either. You're just speaking softly. We all seem to be.

I just realized that capitalizing the word "us" sounded like United states :facepalm:

Admiral Rickover, the father of the American nuclear navy, testified to congress that he thought we would probably destroy ourselves and hardly anyone is more expert than he was.

  Senator PROXMIRE. What do you think is the prospect, 
  then, of nuclear war?

  Admiral RICKOVER. I think we will probably destroy 
  ourselves. So what difference will it make? Some new
  species will arise eventually; it might be wiser 
  than we are.

One thing is for sure. These technologies don't make protest or revolution any easier. They give asymmetric power to whoever wields them (the state) against whoever doesn't (a loose collection of angry people on the street without the same tools).

This isn't the 1800s anymore where the most powerful tool was a gun, and you could distribute these symmetrically across state and people to keep the state in check.

Surveillance, crowd control weapons, access to banking, control over media, eventually AI and widespread robotics, have properties that empower the state. In the context of mass protest, the status quo gets harder and harder to dislodge.

None of this matters much while democracy is still existing, but it's a risk that's there. It makes the fall of democracy more of an absorbing state that you can't escape from.

That is a pretty disingenuous quotation, you cut it mid sentence destroying the context:

> It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to.

I don't think they were?

Earshot NGO analyzed recorded sounds and found 4 of these videos "consistent with Vortex Ring Gun or Vortex Cannon":

https://x.com/earshot_ngo/status/1901661518153781534

Note that many videos didn't record the sound if the phone was further away from that center line.

This is the recording which perhaps captured sound the best:

https://x.com/stonexman/status/1901034916961309148

Yes, although that was exceptionally irrational, to the point where I don't really feel I understand the events.

Yes, but polarization is a possibility. You can't know you're the majority, so until violence is used against you, you don't necessarily have a reason to turn the thing into a civil war.

There's a huge amount of weapons hidden away in attics, even after several campaigns to get rid of illegal weapons, no questions asked. There's also a huge amount of it in the region (Montenegro, Bosnia). I used to live first in Serbia, then Montenegro.

I've personally been to weddings in both Serbia and Montenegro, in the early-mid 2000s, where they fired full auto weapons with live rounds into the air. AK variants and such. I remember us kids collecting shell casings and stripper clips.

I'd say that it's mostly handguns and hand grenades, some AK and SKS variants, obsolete 40s-50s SMGs given out to territorial defense decades ago, some bolt action rifles and some Zoljas (anti tank rocket) and AP mines from the war.

I remember a guy in Podgorica, Montenegro (local football hooligan and drug dealer) firing a Zolja at a department store at night. He had obtained it for 200 euros in Belgrade, Serbia and "had to try it out". [1]

I also remember them catching a 15 year old with an AK in 2017 in Podgorica, Montenegro. [2]

I loved frequenting the local flea market and you could regularly see stuff like helmets for sale, also some magazines (I remember seeing one for an MP40 or similar SMG). I also witnessed a transaction, a guy buying a small pistol from another guy at the flea market. The gun quickly changed hands and dissapeared in his jacket, but I saw it beyond doubt.

Anything else I could write would just bring into question my credibility, so I'll keep these stories for us who lived through it. It recently happened to me that I started quesioning my childhood memories (age 8 or so), like "did that really happen or did I imagine it", so I asked people I remembered were there with me, and yep it sure as hell did. I even forgot some details and people involved. But I'd have a hard time beleiving it if I heard it.

Also bear in mind that a lot of the people who have these weapons actually support the government and loved Vučić's old party from the 90s. For example, one of the people firing an AK at his son's wedding was a policeman, and his grandson is now a policeman and Vučić sympathiser in Belgrade.

[1] https://www.b92.net/o/info/vesti/index?nav_id=211841

[2] https://volimpodgoricu.me/novosti/podgorica-uhapsen-petnaest...

Once they're shooting at you, or going after you in some other way, that legitimacy etc. is irrelevant, simply because they're going after you.

The solution is then always an organized military response. This applies whether it's your government or somebody else's.

This strikes at the core of the idea of solidarity.

If you see injustice but do nothing, you invite the same injustice on yourself.

Injustice at it's core is an arbitrary execution of power, so suffering injustice anywhere is to let power stay unchecked which communicates that there are no consequences for abuses of power, which only invites more abuses of power.

If there aren't consequences for power being used against others, there won't be consequences for power being used against you.

The Basque Country has been a huge sandbox against the later leftist groups in the rest of Spain.

"However, it is my judgment in these things that when you see something that is technically sweet, you go ahead and do it and you argue about what to do about it only after you have had your technical success. That is the way it was with the atomic bomb."[1]

1: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

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Each one of them who INSISTED we should "Just talk about the tech, not the politics" and that "You can't hold someone ethically responsible for creating a weapon, you must hate ONLY the people who use them"

That's a very broad brush. You could use a roller, with handles on both ends for stability, if your surface is so uniformly flat.

How about if there would be an active deadly attack ongoing on you? Would working in defense then be less bad?

@2OEH8eoCRo0

> I've worked on lethal weapons. I feel great!

Assuming that "I feel great" was with respect to having worked on lethal weapons, can you elaborate a bit? Do you consider your work to be supporting good cause(s) and feel it was well motivated for you to work on them, or do you just have no moral grievances working on lethal weapons (for whatever psychological reason)?

(Just to be clear, I think weapons in general can be used for good, as well as for bad.)

From your perspective, can you guess how you'd feel building a less-lethal weapons system like is the subject of this post, given what you think the typical uses of it would be?

There are "dual-use" systems, and there are systems that are only weapons.

There's also technologies and basic research, but those are different matters.

I'm first interested in the more straightforward situation of the people who worked on a less-lethal weapon system, which they might've anticipated would be used in exactly this way. What do they think about that?

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A lot of the uses in Western countries weren't even to disperse anyone, they were used as giant speakers to broadcast messages, e.g. during Covid in Germany.

It's crazy to compare that to what seems to have happened in Serbia. It's like saying "Carter has used a hammer, too" when commenting on a murder, and leaving out that Carter used the hammer to build houses with Habitat for Humanity.

The difference between a peaceful protest and a riot is usually just a matter of who's doing the reporting. Or whether the police have bothered to plant a provocateur in the crowd to throw the molotov that justifies the police violence.

Famously: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-278930... - which side started the violence? Was the footage shown out of order? Was the state broadcaster complicit?

A riot is a label, to be controlled by central media and ubiquitous social media propaganda.

It's extensively covered on the wikipedia page alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-range_acoustic_device#Uni...

Also if you just google "LRAD use in [country]" there are source for any country you're actually wondering about...

  The LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device) was used for the first time in the USA in Pittsburgh during the time of G20 summit on September 24-25th, 2009

  The city of Pittsburgh has agreed to pay more than $200,000 to settle two cases stemming from the actions of the city during the September 2009 G-20 Summit, including $72,000 to Karen Piper, a bystander who suffered permanent hearing loss after Pittsburgh police deployed a Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) on a neighborhood street.

What’s an LRAD? Explaining the ‘sonic weapons’ police use for crowd control and communication (2022) - https://theconversation.com/whats-an-lrad-explaining-the-son...

That's the exact same circumstances that lead to the development of guerilla warfare. I don't know how you'd go around creating a "highly visible gimmick" that has any lasting impact though.

> useful if you're farther from the source

Inverse square law, so yeah.

That sounds bold and exciting, but it's clearly false and terrible advice.

Violence, like warfare, is politics by other means. Every expert knows that law of warfare - the first law of warfare, in a sense - that it ends when and only when there is political agreement. Even in warfare, violence just buys time and changes your political position.

In countries with rule-of-law, you can use the political / legal system to stop the violence and hold accountable the perpetrators. In countries without, the only solution is political.

It's also well-established that non-violence and other tactics can be quite effective. While if you attack back and injure others, your credibility and legality is gone - nobody will listen to you or pay much attention to 'they started it' (which the other side will dispute anyway).

"Attack is the best form of defence" is a well-grounded doctrine, but it's not mutually exclusive with protecting yourself. Armies use armoured vehicles even though armour-piercing shells exist, for example.

It's also not always necessary; actively using force against the authorities would essentially be the start of a civil war, and personally I don't think starting a civil war is more likely to result in change than peaceful protest. For instance, Serbia is to some extent reliant on the EU, and has expressed an interest in joining. That should force the current government to reconsider and crack down on corruption much better than an attempted coup would.

Full disclosure: I have never been to Serbia and this is just my personal feeling. But for expressly peaceful protests to seamlessly turn into a full-blown revolution, and a successful one at that, seems incredibly unlikely to me.

I fully support targeted use of violence against oppressors and aggressors but it needs to be said that materialized (as opposed to threatened/implied) violence only works if you are able to deliver sufficient amounts of it.

Up until that point you need to paint yourself as the victim (the just/right/good side) to get more support to deliver more violence later what the time comes to materialize it.

Premature materialization leads to the oppressor/aggressor painting _himself_ as the victim and you as the aggressor. And because most people are uninformed, not terribly intelligent and conditioned to prefer peace over justice, they are more likely to take his side.

You're really up and down these comments advocating the start of another war in the Balkans, aren't you? How did that work out last time, and the time before that?

Defensive measure are also enjoyable as they give an increased tactical field - as to put it, they increase the luck area.

Operator is typically thousands of kilometres away

It's not so much that LRAD relies on bone conduction to inflict pain (and sensorineural hearing loss!), but that the sound levels are so high that even if you block the air conduction route with earplugs, the bone conduction route (approximately 30 dB of attenuation compared with air) still might deliver enough sound to the inner ear to cause pain and hearing loss.

This kind of thing is a problem on aircraft carriers, where people working on the flight deck are so close to loud jets that no amount of conventional hearing protection will adequately conserve hearing. Creare has been working for the last decade and a half on special helmets for the US Navy to overcome this issue, resulting in the HGU-99/P Hearing Protection Helmet.

Ear muffs aren’t going to do much against 160dB

Can you have a device which upon detecting the frequency emits some kind of counter vibration that cancels out th attack?

Probably also worth watching a related video from the same channel: "Defeating Microwave Weapons! - Part 1" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_aUOSLuRo

At that point, you should realize that a round of 7.62 is under $1 and equally effective.

if you're bringing FPV drones you're well past the point of protesting