If you witness a cardiac arrest, here's what to do
52 comments
·March 10, 2025ggm
unsnap_biceps
Another thing said by medics that's stuck with me is "you can’t screw up CPR because the person is already dead"
sklargh
Effective CPR is a team effort because it is physically demanding and requires a number of individuals to work other elements of the problem set (airway, medication and access, AED, relief for CPR practitioner, communication with emergency department, police etc...). There is an awful lot to do in these situations and the scenario balloons in players from the first rescuer to the receiving emergency department. The goal should really be continuous motion to a higher level of care vs. getting frozen in place.
I will also note that it is pretty emotionally demanding, particularly given that it's likely to fail, and be coincident with someone else in distress (family member, friend etc...). This is an event you're going to want to put into a box and give yourself some time to work with.
TechDebtDevin
Well dang, I guess in hospital success rates for CPR are <20% survival to discharge. Outside of hospital they are < 10% and quickly drop. Sort of terrifying, even though I've done CPR training many times for work I was of the impression that success rates were much higher.
dsymonds
It's low with CPR alone, but getting an AED involved (which should be accessible in most urban places these days) raises the chances to 50-70%.
epcoa
Look more carefully at that 50 to 70% figure. It is exaggerated (or at least misleading to directly compare) because the usually cited studies are assuming an arrest with a shockable rhythm (and timely, and correct AED application), but only 30 to 40% of out of hospital cardiac arrests have a shockable rhythm, so the overall survivability is not over 50%. Practically speaking even with an AED present its more like 20-30% and that is just survivability, not taking into account long term deficits.
bigfatkitten
They're cheap enough now for normal people to own one.
I carry one in my car as well as a bleed kit, and some other bits and pieces I'm qualified to use (oropharyngeal airways and a bag valve mask respirator).
mmooss
Where can I find those numbers?
kurthr
You're a lot better off, if it's just a Heimlich. They don't say it, but probably much better, if you have access to an AED (most of that remaining 10%).
nayuki
Here is the non-lite version of the article: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/whitecoat/the-dose-cardiac-arrest-1...
Springtime
Useful illustrative graphic in that version of the article for remembering the compression rhythm with a Bee Gees' song mnemonic and required depth.
leeoniya
> remembering the compression rhythm with a Bee Gees' song mnemonic
i prefer the Queen song mnemonic :D
blondin
thank you!
M95D
Survival rates when CPR is applied outsite a hospital is below 10%. About 1/3 of those 10% that survive will have permanent neurological disability and about 50% whish they died instead of having CPR.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/05/29/1177914...
onemoresoop
That still leaves a small percentage of those to survive and continue their lives, I’d say it’s worth it. My father was probably killed by CPR as we found out at autopsy that he had aortic aneurism, an aortic fissure that ruptured badly during CPR. And yet ER tried their best and was his only chance of survival.
spondylosaurus
A related, longer read: https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/the-hidden-...
harrylove
Also learn the Heimlich maneuver if you can. It’s easy to learn and you don’t need to be certified. Never thought I’d need it but I saved my brother’s life many years ago. An outlier for sure given about 6,000 people in the US die from choking each year, but still.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21675-heiml...
rkagerer
A few years back while recertifying, I got interested in what the world record was for the longest successful CPR recovery. Found this incident that lasted 4 hours, involving someone who'd gone into hypothermia some hours before:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/christine-tin...
In this case, her lowered body temperature contributed to surviving long enough for rescue.
CPR doesn't have the highest success rate, but it's worth knowing how to do as it can make a life or death difference.
0_____0
"They aren't dead until they're warm and dead."
westurner
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39850383#39863280 :
> Basic life support (BLS) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_life_support :
>> DRSABCD: Danger, Response, Send for help, Airway, Breathing, CPR, Defibrillation
> "Drs. ABCD"
From "Defibrillation devices save lives using 1k times less electricity" (2024) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42061556 :
> "New defib placement increases chance of surviving heart attack by 264%" (2024) https://newatlas.com/medical/defibrillator-pads-anterior-pos... :
>> Placing defibrillator pads on the chest and back, rather than the usual method of putting two on the chest, increases the odds of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest by more than two-and-a-half times, according to a new study.
From SBA.gov blog > "Review Your Workplace Safety Policies" (2019) https://www.sba.gov/blog/review-your-workplace-safety-polici... :
> Also, consider offering training for CPR to employees. Be sure to have an automatic external defibrillator (AED) on site and have employees trained on how to use it. The American Red Cross and various other organizations offer free or low-cost training.
pestatije
whats the liability if you dont?
SapporoChris
My concern would be the risk of going into cardiac arrest while performing chest compressions, because the universe has a sick sense of humor.
JackMorgan
In the US, you don't have to do anything. If they are not responsive without a pulse you can legally administer CPR with the "good Samaritan" laws. However it's extremely unlikely to actually work in the best of conditions. We were taught as EMTs that it's really for the bystanders to have something to do. Unless there's an AED, it almost never works, but hey you may as well try.
JumpCrisscross
Legally or morally?
pestatije
legally, in Australia
kylecazar
I don't know of anywhere in the world where common law requires you to save someone in peril as a civilian
bigfatkitten
There is no common law duty to rescue. If you do nothing, you'll be fine legally but I don't know how you'll sleep at night.
In NSW, the Civil Liability Act 2002 provides protections for good samaritans assisting in good faith. Other states and territories have similar legislation.
https://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/cla20021...
blindriver
Like Seinfeld?
redsaz
Thankfully the episode's interpretation of a Good Samaritan Law is completely wrong, at least in many (most?) US states. They protect citizens acting in good faith to help somebody, not like it was interpreted in the episode to require somebody to help.
epcoa
Not completely wrong. There are duty to rescue or duty to report laws, and they too are very commonly referred to as Good Samaritan laws even if that more commonly refers to a different concept of liability.
https://www2.law.ucla.edu/Volokh/rescue.htm
Duty to report are on the books, including in Massachusetts (ch 268 §40), requiring bystanders to report crimes, but not necessarily render aid. Duty to report laws are rarely enforced, which is what makes the Seinfeld setup more ironic. Although MA has one of the broadest duty to report laws (covering armed robbery and manslaughter in addition to sexual assault), the max penalty is a $2500 fine, but other states have jail time penalties. Duty to rescue is most always only for special relationships, such as parent/guardian/child, spouse, employer/employee, passenger, not random bystanders.
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/in-which-sta...
voidfunc
It's been drilled into my head as an American that I should never help anyone. Too much risk.
kurthr
That's why there are good Samaritan laws.
No person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency
medical or nonmedical care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for
any civil damages resulting from any act or omission.
onemoresoop
Is it really? If I help someone am I really risking being sued?
rsync
No: You are protected by a good samaritan law of some kind in all 50 states:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law#United_Stat...
Certainly we, all of us, may be sued at any time for anything but there is specific protection codified into law for this particular scenario.
If somebody needs help you should help them.
null
bobsmooth
You probably have a liability to call 911 if you are able to. You're never liable for providing untrained medial assistance but if you're a medical professional that might change.
Always good to do. Medicos I talk to say two things: you have to press a LOT harder than people think, and when they do it, cracked ribs are normal. And, its really sad, but it just doesnt work sometimes. A lot of times.
Do it, but don't be surprised if it doesn't work. But do it.
Helen Clark, ex PM of NZ tried to save her mountain guide friend up a hill, kept going for an hour or more. When I measure up prime ministers, this is the standard I look for.