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DIY "infinity contrast" TV – with 100% recycled parts [video]

ChrisMarshallNY

Very cool, and great video.

It seems that projector tech (like laser printer tech, and flatbed scanner tech) has been pretty stagnant, the last few years.

Every now and then, I look at the latest projectors, to see if there's any justification for me to replace my old (10 years or so) LED projector, and I have not seen anything that has made me want to.

Miraste

They have gotten better. Recent consumer projectors use triple (RGB) lasers as a light source, which improves color accuracy a lot. It's not worth replacing one that works, but it is noticeable.

ChrisMarshallNY

My experience with laser projectors, is that they work great, but have very weak beams (for reasonably portable ones).

I need it to be something I can toss into a backpack (along with a bunch of other stuff), and be around 1000 lumens.

Not just lumens, either. The color needs to be good, the resolution needs to be (hopefully) greater than 1080p, and it needs to be usable in a semi-lit room. I don't care about speakers. I use projectors as a speaking aid.

I've been using a tiny InFocus LCD unit that's great, but a little anemic (1080p/750 lumens).

The promise of a laser, is that you can project it against a cinder-block wall, and it will stay in focus, and show great color.

Miraste

I've only used larger, higher power ones that are meant to stay in one place. Even with those, all the "point it at a wall and it looks like a TV" marketing is fiction. They don't look good without projector screens unless you're in a dark environment.

SirMaster

They improve color gamut coverage and color volume, but I would not say accuracy. It's much harder to get an RGB laser projector accurately calibrated than an old mercury lamp or even single blue laser / yellow phosphor projector.

abdullahkhalids

For the sake of my eyes, I have wanted to switch from using a secondary computer monitor to a projector. I imaging switching looking from primary monitor at 2 feet vs projector screen at 8 feet would be good exercise for the eyes.

Does anybody have recommendations for a good projector? I care less about color fidelity, given that this is for work, and more about excellent contrast in a lit room, and resolution.

crazygringo

I think you can go to an optometrist and get glasses that will achieve the same effect.

I'm nearsighted and wear glasses when I watch a play/movie/etc. with faraway detail, but I wear a second, different pair of glasses when working in front of a close screen. They don't make anything sharper, but I have zero eye strain now while working. My optometrist says it's a common thing in your 40's to start to need that.

ChrisMarshallNY

I have a pair of “computer glasses,” that I wear, when working on the computer. They aren’t the same as “reading glasses,” but aren’t very good for things like watching TV, or driving.

plun9

I use a projector and TV side-by-side as monitors. The TV provides better contrast during the day. Unfortunately, the projector model I use—Dell S718QL—has been discontinued. You can look at reviews of recent ultra short-throw (UST) models such as ones from Epson, Hisense, LG, or Samsung. For best results, pair a UST projector with an ambient light rejecting (ALR) screen.

gibibit

A bit clickbait calling it "infinity contrast" even if it's higher contrast than an LCD, is it still a finite contrast. Probably not higher contrast than modern OLED TVs, but a clever hack with stuff at hand. Just not up to the hype of infinite.

Animats

Projectors are only "infinity contrast" in total darkness.

But with enough lamp power...

Larry Ellison used to have a TV projector sized for a movie theater but aimed at a home sized screen, so he could watch movies and enjoy a view of the outside world at the same time. Of course, now anybody can go to Costco and buy a TV that bright.

SirMaster

Projectors are never infinity contrast as they cannot turn off individual pixels. Projectors have a single constant light source to all pixels like a non local-array dimming TV. It's entirely up to the imaging panel to modulate the pixels, and none of the 3 panel types can block all the light for a pixel.

crazygringo

Laser beam scanning (LBS) projectors are, they genuinely don't beam any light to a black pixel.

Unfortunately they don't really exist commercially anymore. I hope the technology develops and they come back... in a way, they are to constant light source projectors what OLED is to LCD. They seem like the obvious evolution.

nickthegreek

Not sure I would call that clickbait when the Creator put that phrase in quotes in the original video title.

smusamashah

FIY, current substitute title (using DeArrow chrome extension) is "DIY Rear-Projection TV - Recycling Broken TV And A Projector"

Kirby64

The author is using a DLP projector to backlight the LCD. When the projector is displaying black it effectively is infinite contrast. The light is reflected away and never reaches the LCD to backlight it.

smusamashah

Black color coming from projector isn't full black either https://www.projectorreviews.com/articles-guides/projector-b...

wdfx

He also did not do (or at least did not mention) anything about the reflected/diffused and ambient light behind and around the TV screen, which would negatively impact contrast.

mlyle

No. It's not literally infinite contrast.

On the other hand, there's very little light spill from DLP--- and what little there is, is attenuated by a really big factor by the LCD.

I'd guess the limiting factor is light scattered elsewhere in the room and by the front surface of the display.

mbreese

True, but for this purpose, it's "blacker" than a typical LED backlit TV. For a Youtube / DIY project ... I think the description is fine.

gibibit

Good point, I hadn't even thought of this.

SirMaster

That's not true at all. Black on a projector is still projected light, especially with a DLP which have the worst contrast ratios of the 3 projector types (DLP, LCD, LCoS).

What he is making here is a dual panel display. There are actually some LCD monitors that use this concept of 2 separate panel layers each providing their normal contrast resulting in a multiplicative effect.

For the video posted here, the DLP is probably at best 1000:1 and the cheap old LCD is also maybe about 1000:1, so you get about 1 million:1 which is a lot, but not technically infinite like self-emissive display that can turn off the pixels completely for sections of the picture like OLED and microLED.

tshaddox

> Black on a projector is still projected light, especially with a DLP which have the worst contrast ratios of the 3 projector types (DLP, LCD, LCoS).

If DLP has worst contrast than LCD, then why would this project be even remotely successful? Wouldn't the LCD layer in the stock LCD TV would have already been more effectively blocking the light from the stock backlight?

Dylan16807

What makes self-emissive "technically infinite" but not DLP?

I would say the weak point of DLP is the screen material needing to be light-friendly, but that's on a sliding scale with the emissive display, not a hard line difference. Both of them preserve black levels when turning on, unlike traditional LCD, but also it isn't true black for either of them.

drjasonharrison

The projector lens's optics (coatings, materials, etc.) will have been designed and engineered to have a specified contrast ratio.

So yes, if the internal light engine of the DLP truly reflected all light away, then, if it outputs zero photons for full-screen black, you could say the projector outputs zero photons.

However, the DLP is not 100% effective; the interesting images will have a mix of bright and dark areas, and the lens and software image processing will raise the black levels above zero.

Source: I worked at BrightSide Technologies before and after the acquisition by Dolby Laboratories and learned about DLP lens limitations from the engineer working on DLP+LCD based HDR displays.

gibibit

Ignoring the fact that the projector doesn't get to true black (noted by smusamashah), and supposing there's no diffusion that spreads the light of a pixel out to surrounding areas of the display panel, it would be possible to say that the display has infinite contrast, I suppose that is true.

Contrast is important, but alone it is useless. You could have a display with only two levels: black and white, and if the black is perfectly black, then it's infinite contrast (any level of white, no matter how dim, is infinitely brighter than total black), but 1-bit color would be useless in reality for home theater.

To make infinite contrast useful, it's necessary to have HDR as well to take advantage of having very dark and very bright areas both able to be represented with detail. Plus having sufficiently bright maximum brightness so that the brightest highlights can really shine.

deepsun

Just to note that absolute black is not achievable. The best coatings in labs reach 99.99% but it's never 100%.

theshackleford

> To make infinite contrast useful, it's necessary to have HDR as well to take advantage of having very dark and very bright areas both able to be represented with detail.

SDR benefits incredibly as well. HDR is another elevation.

Getting stuck with LCD contrast for years was a travesty to image quality across the board.

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smusamashah

When I read infinity contrast, and knowing how great DIY perks is, I assumed it to be something like this https://youtu.be/JoLEIiza9Bc?t=335 but couldn't wrap my head around the idea on a TV.

numpad0

the joke is that contrast is a ratio, and any number over zero* equals +inf. I've seen similar lines used in OLED advertisements during 2010s, despite many OLED having non-zero minimum intensity. It's a reference to those.

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firefoxd

I'm glad he is back to making approachable projects. It was a boon for me during the pandemic. I particularly love the fake windows to light my closet that looks like daylight.

PhunkyPhil

Is that one really doable?

It's one of the ones that's been at the top of my list, but my lack of engineering/tinkering experience has made me a bit apprehensive. Is it result really worth the effort?

all2

There's 3 components:

1. a TV or monitor diffuser

2. a sheet of LEDs

3. a power supply capable of driving those LEDs. Typically a 12V supply is sufficient (I don't recall if he goes into power supply sizing).

If you're comfortable with learning some things (soldering in this case), you'll be able to pull this off pretty easily.

Uehreka

My friend and I looked into that one to see if it would help his mood when working in his downstairs office (his apartment had a weird layout upstairs). It kind of looks like you need to have a room you can sacrifice to hold all of the equipment, and a door with the right shape. It wasn’t very practical in that apartment, or in any apartment either of us have lived in since.

uSoldering

I think it's odd to make a whole video about a DIY rear-projection television without using the phrase 'rear-projection television'. It's novel to bounce it off the ceiling, and it repurposes e-waste so it's a great project.

Miraste

The novel part is projecting onto an LCD panel instead of a simple piece of glass.

tobr

He does mention rear-projection TVs.

uSoldering

I guess I missed it and was hoping for a deeper dive.

kridsdale1

This is an old concept. There was a research lab in Vancouver circa 2008 who did exactly the same thing (I applied to intern there as an EE student). It was the first HDR video display ever built. They had to also design the encoding format.

They never commercialized but they sold their patents to Dolby who turned it in to “Dolby Vision”.

gedy

I saw similar at SIGGRAPH 2004. Still a cool DIY project.

anadem

Nice, but he totally hides the lining-up of the rear projector image with the main screen's image, which I imagine is a painful process.

badmintonbaseba

I would be more interested in matching up timing/latency, especially with the OBS processing in the middle.

drjasonharrison

and don't forget to re-synchronize the audio!

laweijfmvo

he talks about that extensively and goes over the software fix(es)

KeplerBoy

meh, he doesn't really address the issue. He just mentions using OBS to threshold the image and dilate the resulting regions.

That raises a lot of other questions: He obviously feeds two different videos to the displays. How is this done? Does it add latency, does it work with, let's say, Netflix DRM? Are the two videos even in sync or is the obs post processed feed always N frames behind (think of the transition between barely lit and bright scenes)?

withinrafael

Very cool and a great speaker. Forgive my naivete but would enclosing the back with a short-throw projector reintroduce the LCD light bleed he fought hard to eliminate? I wonder how you would address that. I suspect painting the interior Ventablack wouldn't be enough.

buck746

Vantablack is carbon nanotubes grown on a surface. Black 3.0 or 4.0 and Mosou black are paints that perform significantly better than regular black but are still measurably less than Vantablack. Visually the difference is small, but durability is far better.

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WWLink

Hahaha I guess it's time to bring back rear projection TVs!

ge96

I like this super low F-stop lens video although it was massive

ThrowawayTestr

The results he's able to achieve with this are very impressive. I wonder if consumers would accept a TV that isn't paper thin if it had OLED performance at LCD prices.