Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting
2482 comments
·February 28, 2025insane_dreamer
duxup
I wish the EU was more ... united.
Most of the nations were woefully slow to act with Ukraine (hey let's send some token helmets). They've got a totalitarian regime invading democracies in their back yard but don't seem all that united about it ....
smw
The EU has donated more to Ukraine's war effort than the US, despite coverage suggesting otherwise.
nickthegreek
This is false. The EU has put up more money than the US but they have not _donated_ more money than the US. A large form of the payment from the EU has been in low interest loans.
mcv
They have, but they need to double it. You can't count on the US anymore, and Ukraine needs a lot more than it's getting.
And let's face it, the EU can easily afford it. Sure it hurts a bit. But more war with Russia hurts a lot more. The cheapest way out is to stop Russia in Ukraine, and not give him the opportunity to try again in a few years.
lenerdenator
Loans are not the same as heavy weaponry and intelligence.
Other American administrations have been spending decades begging NATO allies to keep their militaries up to a higher standard. Their refusal to do so is now coming back to haunt the world order.
duxup
I'm not going to dis anything the EU has done so far. I'll give high fives for everything.
But the rollout was slow, they seemed reluctant, some countries didn't want to be involved at all, and they waited for the US for a long time...
daedrdev
The EU has probably net helped Russia with all the gas they have bought
krona
> war effort
"War effort" implies military aid, in which case the US has supplied nearly double all other countries combined.
bsingerzero
The EU has donated about the same amount of money (46.3B) as the US (46.6B), however total aid the US has donated 114B while the EU has dontaed 49B.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...
bpodgursky
Why is parity the goal? The US is on a different continent, and also (theoretically) defending US allies in the Pacific, and middle east.
It's Europe's backyard. Europe should be contributing 5x what the US contributes. They can afford it. It's the richest (per-capita) continent on earth. They outproduce Russia 5-10x.
I have been a strong supporter of US support to Ukraine and I think this meeting was gross and unbecoming, but Europeans need to wake up and understand that this is a problem they can, and have to, solve, not just as a supporting player to the US.
"We did as much as the US" doesn't matter. Give enough support to solve the problem. You have the economy and can, if you make even minor commitment — 5% of GDP would vastly outproduce Russia, for a small cost to living standards. The alternative is giving up.
jiriknesl
You assume EU united would act strongly in favour of Ukraine. But there's no guarantee of that. There are significant differences in how for example, Poland approaches Ukraine with how Germany does it.
I think, nations with bad historic experience with Russia support Ukraine significantly more.
jimnotgym
I agree, but they have still sent more aid than the US
overstay8930
EU is united until it comes time to pay the bill
jahnu
Yes me too. Europe needs to get its act together and do _more_ but let’s also not adopt Trump’s descriptions of what has been given.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukra...
teaearlgraycold
The dark humor in me really wants Russia to be colored dark blue in that map.
unethical_ban
https://youtu.be/IwYVKptqH_o?si=wkGH8i_gY-_AfaK2&t=54
(Edit, this is from late 90s and the NATO action in Yugoslavia)
I thought this was an interesting take. And it's sad that the US has a man giving away our leadership. The world is in a dangerous place.
kevin_thibedeau
They're running the same playbook they did with Yugoslavia. Sit around and do nothing until the US takes control. Not going to work out this time with the felon operating in chaos monkey mode.
selimthegrim
Exactly what I said to alephnerd above.
orbifold
[flagged]
PaulDavisThe1st
So what is your actual preference? That Russia simply be allowed to invade and take over Ukraine "because Ukraine was pretty damn corrupt anyway" ? What does that accomplish?
ajross
The point isn't to pick the "best democracy" as if it were a beauty pageant. It was to oppose unilateral military invasion as an instrument of national policy, which is bad regardless of the form of government of the victim.
Ukraine might have been corrupt, but it was a peaceful neighbor and evolving in the right directions. Russia is (literally) throwing bombs around, cutting internet cables, and generally being a terrorist asshole. And at some point, yes, an emboldened Putin will decide to invade a "good democracy". It's happened before.
randomcatuser
Haha yeah I recently learned this too.
rectang
Ukraine’s situation is better than many people realize, and the US, in siding with Russia, may be betting on the wrong horse.
The EU has provided more aid to Ukraine than the US, Ukraine drone production is through the roof. Europe needs Ukraine and its army as a bulwark against Russia.
gizmondo
Ukraine’s situation is worse than many people realize. Ukraine is losing the war right now with roughly equal support in monetary terms from both US and EU! They have huge manpower problems because of losses and apparent political inability to mobilize enough men. Even if EU suddenly doubled its aid to compensate (which I think is _very_ unlikely), there are gaps in weapons production in Europe, e.g. for SAMs.
alabastervlog
Manpower was always going to be their hardest-to-overcome problem in a protracted war. The relative population sizes when the war started meant they needed an extremely positive kill/death ratio (if you will) just to stay at parity.
TomK32
Ukraine has been loosing a three-day-special operation for three years.
Russia's refinery's are getting hit and all that crude oil is worthless with a refinery. In the case of the campaign again Nazi Germany's refineries funny enough it's the allies who didn't think it as critical as the Nazis did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_campaign_of_World_War_II#O...
cyberax
> Ukraine is losing the war right now
Ukraine is _stalling_ the war right now. Russia is able to capture more moonscaped villages by forcing expendable (their words, not mine) manpower to assault Ukrainian positions.
Ukraine is slowly retreating, but at the rate that will require Russia _years_ to gain a meaningful amount of territory.
lawn
How would you categorize Russia's manpower problem, given that they need to rely on North Korea for people, have to send injured soldiers back to the front line, and suffer multiple more deaths and injuries compared to Ukraine?
nwatson
Ukraine knows the future of warfare and will prosper if they survive this. They will be the ones with the technology and experience in future warfare, and the USA is throwing away a chance to partner with Ukraine and guarantee such a victory.
In 20, 15, or 7 years from now when terrorists are sending drones into medium-sized cities in Alabama to kill indiscriminately, it would have been better for the USA to have been on Ukraine's side.
EDIT: better grammar, maybe
aimanbenbaha
>In 20, 15, or 7 years from now when terrorists are sending drones into medium-sized cities in Alabama to kill indiscriminately, it would have been better for the USA to have been on Ukraine's side.
Spot on. This is what Zelenskyy implied when he said "now you have an ocean but one day you'll know how it feels". But the dumb kakistocrat commander-in-chief took it personally.
By the way remember the New Jersey drone sightings that spooked the East Coast for a week? That was likely the government secretly testing defense deployement against a hypothetical drone swarms attack.
alabastervlog
The value of having a front-row seat to this, from a doctrine and R&D point of view, is staggeringly high. Anyone who's getting copied on the reports is going to be a full generation ahead of countries that aren't.
... that goes for Russia's partners, too. Meaning it's even more important for us.
sph
Betting on the wrong horse while Xi just has to stand aside to see the crown of superpower being handed to him with no effort, Russia on the road to implode in a fire sale, while China looks to sign lucrative trade agreements with the EU.
Brexit was shooting yourself in the foot, today was a gruesome display of diplomatic suicide on live television.
mcv
The EU could end up taking that crown if they handle this well.
Firstly of course, they need to be united, steadfast and decisive in their support for Ukraine until Russia collapses. They should be building new alliances, with India, South America, and any free countries in Africa and Asia. And maybe some unfree ones. Possibly even China, because let's face it, despite its many flaws, China is not the threat to Europe that Russia is. A wedge between China and Russia would weaken Russia and help the EU.
Then, after Russia collapses and the US has withdrawn from the world stage, it will be the EU that saved Ukraine, just like after WW2, the new super powers where the US and USSR that defeated Germany. And Ukraine has a lot to offer that the EU lacks.
The EU is incredibly powerful. Biggest common market in the world, half a billion people, 2nd largest military in the world if they put it all together. The EU just needs to learn to flex its muscles, to unite and assert itself, instead of hiding behind the US.
bakuninsbart
Trump's approach is probably going to work partially in the short term. - The US is very powerful, a lot of countries are reliant on them, so bullying can be used to extract benefits. They got their plane thingy with Colombia, Mexico didn't react much to the preludes of military action against the cartels. The US could annex the Panama Canal and Greenland.
There's a reason why hawks like Bolton and Cheney are against it. It harms US interests in the mid-to-long-term. To me it seems like the Trump adminstration is a) trying to distract from their domestic agenda and b) isolate the US internationally and create new external foes to justify domestic changes.
duxup
I worry that Russia is more than capable of throwing mass casualties into the fight for longer than Ukraine can.
fernandopj
Not on WWII levels, no. Also, not without serious blowback inhouse.
And fighting Ukraine has made Russia vulnerable in all other proxy wars and fronts, such as Syria recently.
cyberax
Russia is paying $40000 for people to get enrolled. It can't afford mass casualties at this cost.
trilobyte
Most informed analysts say Russia has the opposite problem. They don't have any more meat for the grinder without tapping the middle and upper class of Russian citizens, which will have repercussions, potentially serious ones, for Putin.
bloomingkales
The regions Russia is taking from Ukraine have some value in terms of GDP. It's interesting that the Freudian slip US offering involved an additional minerals deal (as in, this is the main interest of the taking parties). Russia is not going to give back GDP, and that's probably behind the break in negotiations. Russia is not relinquishing any gains, and the US wants more resources, and there is no guarantee given to Ukraine regarding its remaining territorial integrity. They are trying to make Ukraine eat shit.
jemmyw
Yes, plus Ukraine learnt a lesson when the GOP stalled aid and they ran low on supplies, so they have stockpiled and domestic production has increased. It's a war of attrition and so both sides are hoping to keep going until the other collapses. The US withdrawing support is a victory for Russian, but it won't end the war. What happens with sanctions might, but also without the US telling them what to do the gloves will be off Ukraine.
So much for stopping the war in 24hrs. Trump's plans were never going to work there, and both Russian and Ukraine were going to try and make it look like the failure was not their fault - guess Russian won that particular battle, maybe it was never even a contest.
SalmoShalazar
This is not a popular analysis. Russia has ramped up their war machine significantly over the last 2 years and have been successfully grinding Ukraine down. They can and will continue to do this. They’ve reoriented their economy around sustained military production, and the tariffs issued against Russia by the US and EU have proven to be ineffective.
PartiallyTyped
EU alone has provided more than the US, add UK and NO, and the difference is substantial.
adrr
World needs to help out Ukraine because if Ukraine falls it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty. They are just pieces of paper that guarantee nothing. This will just lead to more countries getting nukes which means higher likelihood of a nuclear war.
poszlem
> World needs to help out Ukraine because if Ukraine falls it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty.
This is, unfortunately, already the case. No country will ever fully trust such treaties again, and we are closer than ever to a new era of nuclear proliferation.
usrusr
True. Non-proliferation is dead, killed three years ago. Only when Ukraine gets Russia to the point of a Compiègne Forest railroad car end (remember how much of Germany had been occupied at that point?) there is hope for a future without widespread nuke availability.
ttepasse
Dumb nitpicking, sorry:
The railroad car was used in 1918 and in 1940. In both cases Germany was unoccupied, in WW1 because the war was fought on French and on Flandern fields, in 1940 because it was the beginning of the war.
You're possibly thinking of the German surrender, first in Reims, then a day later again in Berlin.
grandiego
> it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty
This is something every related country already knows, think of Pakistan and North Korea. Are you expecting China and India to drop their nukes because of some nice treaty?
> World needs to help out Ukraine...
... to achieve peace ASAP, because thousands of lives are being lost.
Izikiel43
> They are just pieces of paper that guarantee nothing.
You just noticed? Rules/treaties are useless unless you have the power to enforce them.
cmrdporcupine
Germany is now outright advocating that France replace US nuclear weapons on Western European soil with its own.
Charles de Gaulle is somewhere under a tombstone grinning ear to ear saying "I told you so."
Very strange times.
https://kyivindependent.com/france-could-send-nuclear-armed-...
wesselbindt
> the US can turn from ally to bully
This has been par for the course for decades. They used to be on good terms with Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Iran after they couped Mossadegh. Heck, they even armed and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. It has always been a deadly gambit to ally yourself with the United States.
I'm not saying it's universally the case of course. For every Saddam there's a Pinochet, for every Gaddafi there's a Suharto. But the fact that the US can drop an ally just like that should not be a surprise to anyone.
notahacker
Traditionally the US turned from ally to bully in a predictable manner though. Ally with the Soviet Union, expect hostility, even if your previous right-leaning government had been their best buddies. Invade another country the US also regarded as a regional ally and oil supplier and you might not last long.
The switch to verbally attacking Ukraine and the rest of Europe whilst fellating Putin is an altogether different one, and one much more damaging to US soft power than its past belligerence.
gorbachev
This is exactly right. Current US allies should not trust the United States to stand with them at least for the next four years or so.
I would go further than that and say you can't trust the US for anything, ever. The United States will not keep long term commitments for more than four years at a time. If you're lucky, or unlucky depending on which side you're on, that cycle will last 8 years.
DamnYuppie
This is just fear mongering. No one has done more for its allies all over the world than the US. This however doesn't mean we always have to do everything everyone wants or in the way they want. We want peace, if that peace isn't the best solution for Ukraine we don't have to care about that, we DID NOT start this war.
The best way for the world to not need to worry about the US aid is to not be jerks, if everyone is calm there is nothing to worry about. Everyone is just agitated because now the possibility of "American's won't come and die for us" like they all hoped they would is coming home. Now they have to actually do something they are all agitated.
speff
> American's won't come and die for us
Not one person ever expected American blood to be spilled in Ukraine. Framing the opposing side with having these thoughts is arguing in bad faith. And what peace is there in letting a bully get away with the spoils? What's going to stop them from doing it again?
And yea the US didn't technically start the war, but if Ukraine didn't give up their nukes because of assurances by the US, then they wouldn't have been in this situation.
taylodl
The future of NATO is secure. It just won't include the US. Whether that exclusion is done implicitly or explicitly remains to be seen. The US has put itself in the position where it has no allies and no peaceful trading partners. That's not going to work out well for them, regardless of how much military might they believe they have.
HellDunkel
The EU is going to be thinking long and hard if the US really is so much more friendly than China.
i_love_retros
I'm concerned the US is turning from ally to enemy of the EU.
nxm
They’re not though… it’s just that endless billions being sent for a war that Europe won’t proportionally help support has to end. How much more money and lives will be wasted in Ukraine?
bakuninsbart
At least the US isn't threatening to annex land of an EU member state, that would be a real scandal.
amanaplanacanal
Ask Russia?
apelapan
The killing won't stop until Russia is firmly stopped. There is no peace without completely and permanently pacifying Russia. They will attack again and again until we render them unable to continue. The best time to do this is thirty years ago, the second best time is now.
probably_wrong
I believe the clip of the interview disproves that point. If money was the problem (or, more generally, a protracted investment in a conflict perceived as senseless) then a sobering talk would be the way - think of the speech that Biden gave when he announced that the US was withdrawing from Afghanistan for similar reasons, fully aware of what the likely consequences would be.
This interview, on the other hand, has the US VP talking on top of a head of state while chastising him for not being grateful enough while pressuring him to take a deal that would effectively surrender Ukraine to US and Russian interests. Whatever the objective of this meeting was, "a fair result for Ukraine and its dead" did not seem to be it.
sleepyguy
It was as if they invited him to the Whitehouse to set him up for a lecture and scolding. They had no intention of anything other than humiliating him in front of the world. It's shameful what our administration has done.
WinstonSmith84
it was 100% the purpose, but it looks like it worked out badly. They keep underestimating Zelenski but he was certainly prepared for this confrontation. I mean, I just can't imagine anybody staying that cool in front of such provocations.
afavour
He’s also a former stand up comedian. If you’re going to heckle the guy you’d better be good at it if you want to come out looking good.
rvnx
He did one mistake though, when he asked "Can I speak/say something?" to Trump, and Trump said no. This is lesson learnt for the future (for myself too in terms of public speaking).
But overall, he did rather well, considering the shit-show it was.
I still can't believe Trump publicly tries to humiliate an ally like this, and at the same time calls Biden "the stupid President".
Stupid or not, perhaps he is, but not to stay in public like that. It shows Trump doesn't respect the function of the US President and shits on the vote of the citizens.
bix6
Maybe I will wear a suit like yours, maybe it will be better. Z is pure class!!
slightwinder
> They keep underestimating Zelenski but he was certainly prepared for this confrontation.
The Trump-gang seems to underestimate everyone and everything. I still don't know whether they mean all this excessive behavior for real, or if this is an elusive ploy to divert from something else. Trumps seems to operate by selling big to gain small, but I can't really understand yet what his real long-term goal seems.
But at this point it seems other politicians around the world have got an understanding of him and his behavior and started playing along. I'm curious if Zelenskiy did the same, he certainly gained more from this than if he had been avoided it from the beginning.
null
Rapzid
That felt really gross to watch. I don't know what else to say that's more high-level thinking and adds to the conversation. A straight up "mean girls" moment.
onlyrealcuzzo
The joke is on them.
The one's humiliated on the global scale are the ones who are lying through their teeth with less than zero class.
PartiallyTyped
I don't think the US is "too big to fall", and the US seems to have taken that road.
nickmp
But will the American people see what the rest of the world sees, or will they continue supporting Trump and Vance?
dctoedt
> But will the American people see what the rest of the world sees, or will they continue supporting Trump and Vance?
Attributed to (the half-American) Winston Churchill: "The American people can be counted on to do the right thing — after they've exhausted all other possibilities."
insane_dreamer
I honestly don't think there's anything Trump could do to lose the support of his MAGA base. There have been so many times when I've said "surely they'll see what he is now" only to be mistaken. It's truly a cult.
e40
I think it was disgusting what Trump and Vance did, but I don't believe for a second that everyone will view it that way. The 40% that voted for them will view this as an ass whooping Trump/Vance gave Zelensky. They're all in on the grift, there's no reason this will turn them off.
Now, if SS or Medicaid is gutted... that will be the turning point for this admin.
legitster
This is a good reminder why diplomacy is usually done behind closed doors. "Transparency" is being used as the refuge of a scoundrel.
grungydan
So it was just like literally everything else this administration is doing. Shocking.
mike-cardwell
I couldn't even watch the whole video. Horrendous. Depressing. How can you tolerate having those men running your country America. Nightmare fuel.
malfist
Lots of us here feel the way you do and are in disbelief of our country
alabastervlog
It 100% looks like they were planning to force a confrontation. Notice how all the escalation is them, they start escalating over basically nothing, and they keep trying to crank up the temperature while Zelenskyy's keeping things nice and even. This didn't happen the last couple times world leaders made far more confrontational statements in a similar setting, but also Vance wasn't there to provide emotional support those times and, well, there are some common sayings about the actual nature of a bully.
I think Zelenskyy didn't give them the sound-bites or vibe they were looking for, but they're claiming some kind of victory (WTF) on social media anyway. Meanwhile all they managed to do was look some combination of stupid, childish, and traitorous, while he came out looking incredibly restrained, and overall more-articulate than them despite the handicap of speaking in English rather than his native tongue.
shostack
Sounds like when Jon Stewart went on Crossfire and destroyed Tucker Carlson who had attempted to escalate and get angry. And Jon was like "this is theater."
PaulDavisThe1st
Carlson was destroyed, but he did not attempt to escalate. He wanted Stewart to get back to "being funny" and got angry when Stewart refused.
dijksterhuis
i'd completely forgotten about this video, i think it's high time to go rewatch it... thanks for the reminder.
TheOtherHobbes
Zelensky used to be a stand-up comedian. He has plenty of experience thinking on his feet in front of a tough audience of drunks and fools.
I'm wondering what all the people in the US military and government who swore to protect the US from "all enemies, foreign and domestic" are thinking now.
alabastervlog
I have to imagine being under non-stop threat of violent death for several years also gives one a rather thick skin.
BrickFingers
I disagree that it looked like a planned confrontation and that all the escalation is on Trump and Vance
Vance made a comment about the US' goal to be diplomatic.
Zelensky speaks up and says he wants to ask Vance something. He then goes on to talk about how Putin annexed Crimea and that between 2014 - 2022 Putin was murdering Ukrainian citizens and ignoring cease fires. He mentioned that nobody did anything to stop Putin, implying that Trump didn't do anything during his first term in office. Then Zelensky ends with something along the lines of "so what do you mean diplomacy" to Vance.
Even if Zelensky's statements were correct, that was not a wise course of action to attempt to call out the President and VP while you're in the Oval office. The meeting erupts from there.
Regardless of how you feel about the current administration, it is a fact that Ukraine has been dependent on the US' aid. I don't know what Zelensky expected to gain from those statements.
TFYS
What would Ukraine gain from a deal where they give up their natural resources in exchange for a pinky promise between an invading dictator and his 'wanna-be dictator' friend to allow Ukraine to remain an independent country?
hoten
For context, since most clips I've found online start just after JD's comment you're alluding to here-
JD's statement about "diplomacy" which precedes Zelensky's comments about how Russia diplomacy plays out starts here: https://youtu.be/CIEZEvx1HfU?si=IdGw2g74643yEQrE&t=45
I suppose its arguable that it wasn't the most diplomatic thing to say in the moment. But I can't fault the guy for pointing out the undiplomatic behavior while his country is being squeezed by Russia and US (wrt mineral rights). How frustrating it must be to hear "have you tried diplomacy?" in the context of an invading force.
insane_dreamer
Remember that Z has to answer to the people of Ukraine. People who have been dying in defense of their borders -- and a volunteer army, not conscripts, mind you.
He wanted/needed American aid, but there was no way he could just go in there and kiss the ring, while being slandered as the aggressor and letting Putin off the hook. There's no way that would fly for his people back home -- remember that they are as much of an audience as the Americans.
megous
> implying that Trump didn't do anything during his first term
To me the implication was that "diplomacy and deals didn't work" and they ended up with the current war, anyway. It's a common talking point.
jimmydoe
My guess is he's being pushed out as president and is forced to sign the deal, by internal political forces who are likely pro-Trump or pro-Putin.
This news press is his only chance to potentially flip the script with his public opinion advantage. We will see how that goes.
m3kw9
There was a choice Zelenskyy could have made there, but he seems to know the deal so he didn’t hold back asking
morkalork
Humiliating people does appear to be a common theme with the administration, one just has to look at the photo they put out after winning with RFK and the McDonald's takeout on airforce one. Also all the women jockeying for various positions getting plastic surgery, looking like an army of botox'd stepford wives. I'm no armchair psychoanalyst so I can't tell you what it means. Just that it's very.. apparent and intentional.
jmward01
US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation you can have nice things like open parks and friendly establishments but when trust and cooperation go away you get bars on windows. This is a shame. I am ashamed of the US. I am ashamed that we are so shortsighted and scared that we have to play the bully and force a minmax solution when things could be so much better for everyone.
aeternum
I really don't understand this take, any other European country could fund the Ukraine war to continue.
The US no longer wanting to fund someone else's war is about as far from 'forcing' as you can get. Plus it doesn't even sound like we're withdrawing all funding, instead we're attaching a few conditions in hopes to end the killing.
earthnail
The US is undermining the very institutions it built, like the UN, and the rule based world order.
That’s what the outcry is about. As of today, the US is no longer the leader of the free world.
The economic impact for the US in the long run will be significant. Trust is hard to build but easy to destroy.
coffeemug
It isn't about funding. It's about denigrating our allies and attacking the victim of aggression, while praising our adversaries and aggressors. Realpolitik is (correctly) in vogue as a correction to bad policies, but ideas and justice still matter.
null
rdedev
Not just the US but a lot of right wing or authoritarian govt in general.
The problem with this zero sum thinking is there is another player outside of the countries if the world; nature itself. Think natural disasters, climate change, diseases. No one can negotiate with it or form alliances. It does not care about our survival. The only choice we have is to come together to make sure we don't get screwed over.
Animats
On the minerals front, the US doesn't need anything from Ukraine. Most of the minerals mentioned, except titanium, are un-mined deposits. Or things the US has plenty of already, such as oil, natural gas, coal, and iron.
Here's a rundown:
- Rare earths:
I've mentioned the MP Minerals, Mountain Pass, CA mine before. The US doesn't have enough rare earth refining capability, and China won't export the technology. So US ore goes to China for processing. Or did, until DoD paid for a separation plant at Mountain Pass. That problem is close to being solved. That new separation plant is running. A plant for the final step, making magnet-ready metal, has been built in Texas, again by MP Minerals, and it's about ready to open.
What's happened with rare earths is not that they're rare. It's that China undercut US prices so much that the Mountain Pass mine went bankrupt. Twice. In 2015, there was a rare earths glut. Look at WSJ rare earths articles back to 2011.
There are large un-mined rare earth deposits in Colorado and Wyoming, with startups talking about mining them. Whether this makes economic sense is unclear. If all those start up, the price will crash again and they all go bust.
Three years ago, the US rare earths situation looked bad. Not today.
- Uranium
The US has plenty of uranium resources. Canada and the US are historically the biggest producers.
- Titanium
Titanium ore has supposedly been discovered in Tennessee. See https://iperionx.com/ Are those guys for real? Not clear.
- Lithium
The US produces about 75% of the lithium it uses. New deposits have been found in Arkansas:
https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/unlocking-ar...
And in Nevada:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCWeZiVsotc
- Graphite
China is the leading producer, but Canada and Norway are ramping up. There hasn't been US production of natural graphite since the 1950s. US production of synthetic graphite satisfies most US demand. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/pp1802J) Several new synthetic graphite plants are being built in the US.
As we've seen in rare earths, when the cheaper sources raise their prices, domestic production increases. It seems to take about three to five years to get a big mining operation going.
Quietly, during the previous administration, there was funding for US mineral projects in rare earths, graphite, and lithium. It's no secret, but most coverage is from sites that cover mining and minerals.
code_biologist
I've seen speculation that rare earth mining is environmentally destructive enough that it faces massive (expensive) regulatory hurdles in the US. Much easier to pay politicians in less developed countries to do it there.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-toxic...
rjbwork
One reason they're running roughshod over the EPA, among other agencies.
Animats
Mountain Pass, one bankruptcy back, beat that problem. It took some new technology. The system is closer to closed-loop, rather than using huge amounts of water and producing huge amounts of sludge in evaporation ponds. That's what the mines in China do, and the sludge ponds are visible from orbit.
Here's the Sierra Club report from 2011.[1] They were OK with the mine. So was the state of California and the US EPA. Problem solved.
Then in 2015, after all this was working, China cut the price of rare earths.[2] Mountain Pass mine shut down, and Molycorp, the owner, went bankrupt. But the equipment was stored and maintained. When the price of rare earths from China went back up the next owner, MP Minerals, bought the assets and restarted operations.
This time, the new buyers made long-term deals with the US DoD and General Motors to guarantee a market at a price at which they could operate. That seems to be working.
Much news coverage of mineral issues tends to lack background. Better info is available, but it's on mining industry sites, in USGS reports, and in places most people don't read. Punditry is cheap. Reporting is expensive.
[1] https://www.desertreport.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DR_S...
[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtreadgold/2015/05/15/chinese...
barbequeer
if there's one thing we can be sure of with the current administration, it's that regulatory hurdles aren't going to stop them doing what they want
casenmgreen
The minerals deal made no sense.
1. If you wanted minerals because of strategic concerns, you would not source them from a State which has been invaded by Russia. This is not a stable, reliable source.
2. The deal we saw details for was a jointly controlled fund for investment, where 50% of profit of State owned mining and related infrastructure would be deposited. There's no mention there of mineral supply to the US.
I did not understand it, and I still see no sense in it.
What was actually going on?
We saw Donald try to bounce Z into signing : "you have one hour to sign this".
That obviously shattered any trust that might have been there.
I don't think we ever saw the text of that first deal.
Then the second deal was just this jointly controlled investment fund, which looked like a face-saver.
In any event, USA is now out of the game.
A coup is in the process of occurring, and once the judges and courts are subverted, will be complete.
All this with the deal and D and Z is basically water under the bridge; EU has to stand on its own two feet now, and that's the situation here and now, however we got here.
lo_zamoyski
The mineral deal has at least three purposes[0]:
1. It provides a way for Ukraine to become a client of US defense instead of a an aid recipient. That is, it allows Ukraine to pay for the weapons it receives.
2. It puts Americans on the ground in Ukraine in a non-military capacity. This introduces a new diplomatic dimension, as attacking or occupying land with significant American presence is not desirable.
3. It provides money for an investment fund for rebuilding Ukraine.
Whether this is an effective strategy, I don't know.
[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/02/27/minerals-...
insane_dreamer
There is one way in which it could make sense. If the US is able to extract economic benefits from Ukrainian territory, then it is likely to help Ukraine defend that territory in order to get those benefits.
Now whether those benefits are lucrative enough to warrant the US' help, I think not, which is why the deal apparently included no guarantees. The $500 billion is completely bullshit - they're not worth that much.
Swenrekcah
I would be extremely surprised if the other half of this profit fund was not eventually meant to go into Trump's pockets rather than to the United States itself.
leptons
>What was actually going on?
I really hope that Zelensky doesn't arrive back home with a bad case of novichok or polonium.
insane_dreamer
It's a miracle he's survived all these years.
cyrillite
Where can one reliably learn about rare earths in the supply chain, refining abilities, what’s actually important for which tech, etc? I feel like I read very different views on this stuff all the time at different levels of granularity.
m463
Maybe they don't have strategic minerals, but they do have strategic democracy.
insane_dreamer
You're right, but for Trump, there doesn't have to be an actual deal, there just has to be the _appearance_ of a deal. He just needs to be able to repeat that $500 billion number -- it doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not or will ever happen or not. It's like Mexico paying for the wall.
cmrdporcupine
Not sure why you're counting Canadian uranium deposits on the American balance sheet.
So far at least, these are under our own control and we still have the free will to decide how they are traded.
Unless the new regime in the US really wants to show its true hand, I guess.
Maybe we can toss a 25% export tariff on them, since the US is trying to strangle our economy anyways.
null
Karellen
> On the minerals front, the US doesn't need anything from Ukraine.
Need's got nothing to do with it. Bullies don't take what you have because they need it, they take it because that's what you have, and they want to take it away from you, just to be taking it away from you.
For Trump, it is not enough that (as he perceives the situation) he wins, rather than (as he perceives) everyone else loses. Even people's whose backs are up against the wall. Especially people whose backs are up against the wall. If you don't exploit the weakest player at the table, why are you even playing?
(Not that Trump knows anything about gambling... who the fuck loses money running a casino... on multiple separate occasions...)
Trump isn't making deals based on carefully considered advantages and concessions. He's just grasping his tiny hands at whatever comes in reach, whether or not he needs it, like the half-wit schoolyard thug he is.
basisword
If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of Jan 6th and multiple indictments against him - there's no reason to believe the next person they vote in won't be worse.
hintymad
> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots
They should take control. That's why it puzzled me why they are okay to get deindustrialized, are okay to destroy their nuclear plants, and are okay to rely on imports of natural gas from Russia
pedalpete
I was thinking about this recently, and wondering the EU will start moving away from the USD, further weakening the global strength of USD and America. They are already dealing with BRIC, and the potential of crypto (likely Bitcoin) to remove any single currency as providing power to any country.
The US has benefitted hugely by being the reserve currency, but that strength is also a weakness that can be used against them, but only if the other countries collaborate, which the EU is most capable of.
casenmgreen
Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence.
You can't force people, you can't trick people.
I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed.
That's how he got into power.
To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.
layer8
Unfortunately, there are European leaders like Hungary’s PM Viktor Orban who expressed support for Trump in reaction to this event.
cmrdporcupine
Can we really put Orban in the category of "European leaders"?
Seems more like "Putin followers"
layer8
As the leader of a EU country, he can veto top-level EU decisions, so in that sense he is.
lifeisstillgood
I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private.
Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand
obelos
It makes more sense when you interpret it as an attempt at humiliation, not diplomacy.
tdb7893
I'm less convinced this was planned because I've met people like this in real life. Criticizing someone for showing disrespect while being incredibly disrespectful yourself seems like abusive parent 101.
Also, the fact they talk down to him about the war in Ukraine of all things is pretty shocking, like he wouldn't be there if he didn't understand the situation in Ukraine (it's not like he was there being extorted for minerals because he thinks things are going amazingly). It seems weird from a global policy perspective but on brand if you're just an asshole. Either way, truly an embarrassing day to be an American.
checker659
And to fabricate consent, probably
pjc50
The public bullying is intentional.
dygd
Very much so. Trump even said it, "This is good TV". What an embarrassment.
rich_sasha
I thought it looked like an episode of The Apprentice.
hayst4ck
> it’s hard to understand
It's not. If you're a remotely rational American right now you are experiencing large amounts of grief.
This is just the denial stage of grief.
scoofy
Grief is a good way to put it. I know everyone is reinforcing their priors, and mine has been the "Housing Theory of Everything" for the last decade -- and longer than that if you count my mid-2000's (admittedly naive) urban-environmentalism advocacy. It's was a pretty niche area for advocacy until recently... I'm pretty sure I was the first official Strong Towns member in SF.
I'm just blown away that even after the first Trump presidency, and now during the second, that the left still has no serious intention of addressing any of the legitimate grievances that working class has. It's genuinely bananas to see so many people fleeing California for Texas and hearing "good riddance." I'm basically broken at this point, and I feel like fighting for basic, practical and sustainable policies, policies that just make sense, is pointless.
https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...
danny_codes
Couldn’t agree more. Not a peep about land use reform or even any real action on income inequality. DNC offers nothing and is somehow surprised people rejected inaction.
consteval
The moderate left (I.e almost all of the left in positions of power) don’t have answers. But, the rest of the left does. The thing is they’re wildly unpopular.
For example, we all know, left and right, that the healthcare system in the US is broken. End of, no debate. It’s broken. But, even the slightest hint of a reasonable single payer system like the rest of the west is met with immediate and severe backlash.
We’re at a place where we’re not even willing to humor, let alone try, any solutions. The conservative approach is “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas”, but the left is really not far off from that either.
Trasmatta
I've been going through a huge amount of grief since the election. I thought I had moved onto acceptance, but anger keeps resurfacing.
jonathanlb
It's a cyclical process.
callc
Stay strong, use this as a opportunity to become a better person. Just do the opposite of Trump / Musk, it will get you so close to being a saint.
hd4
Yeah it's incredible when the mask drops this far.
Trump is a pathetic fuck, but this lines up with how he only ever plays to the domestic audience in advancing protectionist interests. We're feeling that dissonance because this kind of protectionist thinking is extremely rare, basically unheard of these days for world leaders.
jorblumesea
You're witnessing the collapse of American soft power, economic power, and our transition to an authoritarian isolationist state. Some of us accept it while others still have to grasp the situation.
The death of the post cold war neoliberal world order and the death of the American century. to be replaced by... ?
BLKNSLVR
The thing that I find strange about it is that it's being pursued actively, from the inside, as opposed to it being forced on them by an stringer outside force (ie. China). The US has chosen to retract from it's global power and influence.
Mind-blowing, except, kinda-sorta, for the fact that the effort is helmed by a (short-term thinking) businessman rather than a seasoned politician with familiarity with, or even the ability to consider, long term consequences of actions and decisions and the interplay of other countries and their leaders.
consteval
Nearly every decision made since the late seventies has been with the intention of making the most money in the shortest amount of time. Not just in government. In everyday people’s lives, in companies.
And it always fails long term. We lose so, so much and then we just ignore it and do it again. We’re getting to a point where we don’t even remember where we started.
This has been a long time coming, IMO. You can only be selfish for so long before you implode. If everyone is selfish, you’re living on borrowed time.
nxm
[flagged]
varispeed
Russia probably has strong kompromats on Trump and his administration. Can't explain it any other way. Why otherwise they would go out of the way to make idiots of themselves in public in front of the whole world?
I know Trump has not been an example of tact but this is something else.
Glyptodon
I totally think the people saying that KGB has video or photos or whatever from the late '80s of him sleeping with KGB agent/call girls or similar are plausible. But I have a really hard time imagining Trump being embarrassed by anything like that. He'd be like "Of course I slept with beautiful women! who wouldn't?"
I'd love to have some idea of what they could actually have that he'd be ashamed of, but he's so shameless it's hard for me to imagine. Which makes me more inclined to think that he just hasn't met a dictator that he's not jealous of more so than anything.
fransje26
Maybe they weren't adults...
drawkward
The pee tapes.
evantbyrne
Could be as simple as he wants to say he "ended" the war. If history offers any lessons, it's that he doesn't think too much about the details and doesn't care how his actions impact others.
beretguy
> Why otherwise they would go out of the way to make idiots of themselves in public in front of the whole world?
Because they are pure evil people, just like putin, and nobody is stopping them. It's that simple.
verisimi
> no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic
I agree. It seemed to me like Zelensky initiated the public display. Both trump and jd Vance we also commenting on his inappropriate public statements.
sys_64738
I've never felt this embarrassed to be an American in recent years. To all our foreign friends in computing, the majority of people in the US are not caricatures of POTUS and his sock puppet sidekick.
surfpel
[flagged]
chgs
But about half of America did vote for this, and Trump isn’t doing what he said he’d do and what the world said he’d do.
wrs
Half of American voters voted for this, which is far less than half of Americans. I’m almost as disappointed in the people who didn’t vote as I am in the people who voted for this.
B1FF_PSUVM
Should have felt embarrassed about Nuland and Blinken. This is the fall-out.
null
cmrdporcupine
It's actually possible to be embarassed for both.
brickfaced
You don't speak for all or even most Americans. A majority of US voters selected Donald Trump as their President. I'm pleased with the President's pushback on the disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics Zelensky tried to use today in front of the press at the White House.
acdha
Under half of voters selected him - roughly a quarter of the population - and many of them claim to have done so on the basis of the policy positions he made during the campaign which have been reversed (Canada, Gaza, Ukraine, Project 2025, etc.).
sjsdaiuasgdia
49% is a plurality, not a majority.
brickfaced
You're right, he won 49.7% of the popular vote compared to Kamala Harris' 48.4%. Many states like Arizona and California took weeks to finish counting and I had not checked the final numbers.
If you're curious how most Americans feel now, you can read about Trump's approval ratings here; currently his poll results are net-favorable:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-t...
ttyprintk
He won by plurality, not majority.
wilg
[flagged]
dang
You can't attack another user like this here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
Trasmatta
Do you not see the incredible irony accusing Zelenskyy of "disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics"??
His country has been under attack by an authoritarian government for YEARS, and the problem is that he's not "respectful enough" for you? What happened to "facts don't care about your feelings"?
lurking_swe
well then i’m even more ashamed of my country lol. high pressure?
JD vance calling the guest out for being disrespectful in front of the media. Trump not letting the guest talk at all. did we watch the same video? Hilarious take.
nullstyle
[flagged]
dang
> WTF are you talking about?
> get the fuck out of here
> You are pissing on anyone
Whoa—swipes like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please don't post any more of this. Your comment would have been just fine without it. (Well, that and the "little baby bitches".)
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, that would be good. I don't want to ban you and we've had to ask you this before.
padjo
[flagged]
whatever1
European nations, in contrast to the Americas, have been fighting bloody wars between them constantly forever.
After WW2 the EU was formed with the goal of stopping the bloodshed. Germans and French became friends!
Europe outsourced their defense to the USA, and instead they started paying NATO and buying defense equipment from US companies.
Yet they stood by the USA in all their fair or unfair endeavors in the Middle East.
The first time that the EU called for actual help, the US seems aligned with Russia.
Things don’t look good.
entropyneur
I have invested considerable personal resources into fighting for democracy in my country and ended up having to flee leaving behind a rather comfortable life. The United States has always been an inspiration despite its well-known flaws.
Watching this situation unfold is very disturbing. And especially disheartening is the behavior of Republican representatives. A mere month ago these same people were Ukraine's best friends and world's dictators' most hawkish enemies and suddenly they are all parroting a completely opposite narrative. I mean, I can understand electing a pathalogical liar. Happened in my country as well. But turns out others were lying too? Suddenly turns out there's no commitment to values, but only a commitment to one man? If this can happen so easily in a 250 years old democracy, is democracy even worth fighting for? Is the Ukrainians' sacrifice worth it?
yakkomajuri
Usually we keep the mainstream news out of here but felt I had to post this one because I've never seen anything like it and was curious to hear other people's perspective here.
To me it feels like a setup to look good in front of their audience without any proper desire to engage in true diplomacy.
neom
Some of the stuff I've had to deal with building business to $100MM++++++ revenue give me stress and anxiety. I've been through so much shit at this point I think it's hard to stress me out. Watching that interaction between the 3 of them invoked a feeling I've not felt in a very long time, it was incredibly stressful. That was neither politics nor business, personally I'd have accepted either, but that was not those.
lolinder
I can understand, but honestly it was a mistake. I just scrolled down to get here, and there are no curious perspectives being shared or interesting questions being asked, just the entirely understandable and expected mass anger and frustration.
In an ideal world we could have a threat or two like this that would serve as outlets, but what I've actually seen is that having these discussions leads to them bleeding out into other threads that should have been unrelated. HN is going to need to more aggressively enforce its rules about political news if it's going to stay a haven for curiosity and not descend into just another place for angry politics.
voidhorse
Whether we like it or not, politics pervades everything. Attempting to keep certain forums sanitized and "apolitical" while a regime shift is occurring and people's civil liberties face very real threats is to live in an amoral and ahistorical fashion.
Desperate times...
spiderfarmer
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And this is a pivotal moment in US history, the moment where the world realizes the emperor has no clothes.
BLKNSLVR
Agreed. These are potentially historic moments worthy of discussion amongst rational and educated folks.
Hopefully, however, these are not historic moments...
appel
Deeply embarrassing and disturbing. What a sad spectacle to see the President and Vice President of the United States so beholden to a foreign dictator that they would debase themselves in this way. Unpresidential doesn’t even begin to describe it.
My heart breaks for Ukraine. The outcome of the November 5, 2024, election will prove to be a tragic mistake.
trackone
Things like this make it seem like China will be much more likely to try and retake Taiwan soon. Seeing things like this, it is hard to imagine that the US will help defend Taiwan by providing military aid. I can imagine that trump will try to ask for something in return first. Even something like trump asking for TSMC to be sold to trump supporters (musk and others) seems likely to happen.
tnt128
The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion. Everyone involved, including China, prefers the status quo. If there’s one thing to know about war, it’s that it’s unpredictable. China hasn’t been involved in a war for decades, and while its military looks good on paper, its actual performance in a real war still unknown. Failing to win or even losing a war with Taiwan would mean saying goodbye to its global dominance ambitions, and weaken Xi's leadership.
The Chinese are strategic and patient. they don’t need to take on this kind of risk right now.
entropyneur
When you try to predict dictators' behavior usong geopolitical arguments, you make the same mistake as the people who didn't believe in the Russian invasion into Ukraine. It's the internal politics that pushes dictators to attack. And China currently follows the Russia's curve exactly there.
topspin
> The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion.
I don't share this view. China needs only a couple more (2-3) carriers and to arm enough H-6K's with anti-ship missiles to keep US capital ships at bay and they'll have all the tools they need to blockade and conquer Taiwan, perhaps without firing a shot. All of that will be in place in only a couple years; probably before Trump's term ends.
null
m3kw9
Maybe it goes up 100% from 1% to 2% within the next 4 years
jimmydoe
Either they get the island, or they play good guy and sell more stuff everywhere bc everyone hates America more.
Trump loves speaking about cards, Xi is the guy holding all the cards, and keep you guessing.
Ukraine is in a bind, and the US has the power to do whatever it wants.
But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully. A really bad day for US foreign policy.
The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.