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US Forest Service firings decimate: entire generation of talent and passion lost

nxobject

A great loss to the outdoors industry, and anyone who cares about being able to escape civilization and enjoy communing with the nature we have left. America will never have "right to roam" that European countries have, but National Forests and other BLM lands that let you pitch anywhere are a workable substitute.

technothrasher

There is actually no trespass law in Massachusetts for unimproved land, even if posted with signs. So we theoretically have "freedom to roam" in wilderness areas, even if privately owned. However, nobody I've ever talked to seems to know this, including various police officers, and so there seems to be a 'folk law' understanding that you cannot freely roam in such places.

dTal

Side note: Call me a treehugger but the use of the word "unimproved" to refer to the last remaining shreds of wildlife not yet paved over and replaced with Starbucks strikes me as the most dystopian fucking shit.

fragmede

Yeah, I'd call it unspoiled or pristine instead of unimproved.

noahjk

The large swaths of seldom-used private land in the US really grind my gears. It’s the perfect example of the “I’ve got mine” mentality that a lot of Americans have.

Visiting Europe, where most private land has access ways (and I believe laws regarding shared use, in some cases) gives feelings of respect towards both neighbors and the earth, which should (in my and woodie guthrie’s opinion, at least) be a shared experience.

I’m not sure if it’s at all related to the first point, but in America, it would probably be more common for visitors (or ‘trespassers’) to leave someone else’s land worse than they found it (when compared to the shared respect generally found in Europe). Speaking in broad strokes, of course.

nkurz

Can you point to a source for your belief? Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but it seems legally improbable.

CapricornNoble

> and anyone who cares about being able to escape civilization and enjoy communing with the nature we have left.

Shouldn't that elevate property values in rural areas? Being able to buy a get-away property with a large tract of land and its own forest/lake/mountain/whatever.

pjc50

It's a great place to visit but you wouldn't necessarily want to live there.

Thinking about comparable situations in Scotland, you can get a rural property cheaply, or even a spare castle, but .. that's not where the jobs are, that's not where people's friends or social scenes are, there's no shops, and often the weather isn't on your side. What people want is parks as an amenity they can visit. I suppose they'll be privatized and people will be charged to visit them.

    They took all the trees and put 'em in a tree museum
    And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them
    -- Joni Mitchell

null

[deleted]

Geezus_42

So then the only people who get to enjoy nature are those who can afford to pay for it...

lowken10

[dead]

rainsford

There are a couple of comments here dismissing firing 10% of the workforce as not all that impactful, but they're missing some important context.

Despite the common "wisdom" that the federal government is universally bloated, there's little evidence to suggest the forest service has an excessive number of employees given the size of their job. For context they're less than half the size of Facebook, and my non-expert hot take is that managing all that federal land sounds like the more complicated and labor intensive job. If they were running pretty lean already, firing 10% of the workforce could potentially result in job functions with no one to do them, and that goes downhill pretty fast.

The firings were also exclusively focused on firing new employees, regardless of role or performance, simply because they were easy to fire. That makes the forest service (and every other federal agency) as unattractive employer, which will make it much harder to recruit new employees as people naturally retire or leave. That 10% reduction is going to snowball into a larger number over time, even if more people don't get fired, which I suspect they will.

Less important but worth noting is that while the stated goal is to "drain the DC deep state swamp" or whatever, what that apparently really translates into is firing forest service employees, who are spread out all over the country and not what most people think of when it comes to "the deep state". In the name of fighting the bureaucratic boogeyman, they're hurting people like this.

orwin

My pet theory is that US 'unknown' federal land (i.e not Yosemite park) will be sold to special interest groups to pay for new tax cut on land ownership.

[Edit] polymarket bet on if federal land will be sold/auctionned within 2 years? Anyone?

prawn

I don't think it will prevent this from happening, but one interesting thing is that two quite different (political) sides appreciate and make use of BLM land. The US does a pretty decent job of accommodating quite disparate groups: dedicated off-road vehicle areas, stocking lakes, campgrounds, boondocking, hunting, hiking trails, preserving habitat, etc.

Amezarak

> to pay for new tax cut on land ownership.

There is no federal tax on land.

Eddy_Viscosity2

He's not going to stop there. Putin made his trillions by selling off all the nationally owned soviet enterprises for pennies on the dollar. Trump idolizes Putin, so I think we can see him selling ('privatizing') any and every public asset he can.

iseeapattern

people like to disguise false accusations under "pet theories" and "predictions"

fragmede

Musk owns the mining rights to a bunch of land in Nevada which is adjacent to a bunch of BLM land as well.

Clubber

I recall Trump suggested in his last term that he could sell federal land to pay off the debt. There's a whole lot of federally owned land out there. 600 million acres or around 27% of all US land.

https://ballotpedia.org/Federal_land_ownership_by_state

lenerdenator

The behavior of gutting major institutions for profit will continue until a negative stimulus is introduced.

fuzzfactor

This is the USDA.

If it gets out-of-hand very much further, the appropriate stimulus would be thousands of farmers descending upon Washington with pitchforks in hand.

ethagknight

According to the article, USFS was a managerial disaster that sorely needed an overhead reduction to meet budget. Sad to see the 10% lose there jobs.

text0404

where are you getting that? it says the agency is chronically underfunded and therefore understaffed and lacking necessary resources, not mismanaged. that would indicate that it should receive more resources/budget, not less.

xbmcuser

I sometimes wonder if Americans realize what is going on they are borrowing $1 to grow the economy $0.80 and from that $0.75 goes to the top 1%. So 99% of the remaining citizen are borrowing $0.99 to get $0.05. Now a lot of the money that has been borrowed was from the 1% and they realize that rest of the 99% cant pay them back so now they will take over your countries assets at cents to the dollar all the while spouting how capitalism is a good thing.

pjc50

Much of the borrowing grows the economy by more than one dollar - it has positive ROI for the society as a whole. Which is why cutting it is so destructive.

They're going to Liz Truss the US Federal budget, and it's going to be extremely bad for a wide swathe of the middle classes via the financial markets.

hjgjhyuhy

I doubt the billionaire tech bros now controlling the US mind forest fires, and loss of natural habitats. They want the country to collapse, so they can build their own network states.

https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no

petre

Maybe they'll mind when their house burns down and their insurance policy goes up.

gryfft

Their "house"? Their ""insurance policy""?

Do you know what a billionaire *is*?

drweevil

This x 1000. This is one of the cognitive problems we're facing. All too many people think that these billionaires are like the rest of us, just with a bit more money. These people do not experience the world as we do. At all. And they do not care how we do. We are mere counter ants to them. In their quest for more "efficiency" (i.e. becoming even more wealthy, faster) they don't gaf how many lives and careers they destroy.

close04

House costs are close to nothing for a billionaire. And for the billionaires who are breaking the country's bones so they can shape everything to fit their interests the payoff is so great that a house (or 1000) is nothing.

Nimitz14

Not in support of the firings but

> tribal relations specialist

???

snowwrestler

Native American tribes are legal entities with their own property rights that look somewhat like sovereign inholdings within the borders of the U.S. Some of their land borders U.S. Forest land, so there is a need to coordinate. They also rely on some centralized services of the Forest Service, like fire fighting, that they struggle to capably provide by themselves.

thehoff

From the USDA-----

The Office of Tribal Relations (OTR) serves as a single point of contact for Tribal issues and works to ensure that relevant programs and policies are efficient, easy to understand, accessible, and developed in consultation with the American Indians and Alaska Native constituents they impact.

From Forest Service-----

Tribal Relations Specialists play a critical role in the government-to-government trust responsibility that is crucial to the health and sustainability of many of our nation’s most treasured landscapes. They serve as the point of contact for American Indian Tribes; work with Tribal Councils, Tribal Leaders, and officials of other agencies; and serve as partnership coordinators for programs involving collaboration and consultation with American Indian Tribes.

dariusj18

One of the most important jobs in an institution is knowing things. "Who do I talk to about ...?", "Why is X like this?"

singleshot_

Seems like you would need to learn a little more if you wanted to decide to terminate that role. (Sounds familiar?)

ourmandave

Trump 1.0 was the guy who was applauded by the useful idiots for donating part of his presidential salary to the Parks Service ($78K).

All while proposing to cut the Interior Dept budget by $1.5B.

https://www.npr.org/2017/04/04/522518472/trump-donates-salar...

clumsysmurf

Don't need Forest Service if you plan on selling the Forests ...

"Trump Quietly Plans To Liquidate Public Lands To Finance His Sovereign Wealth Fund"

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trump-quietly-plans...

citrin_ru

The US is lacky to keep large forests on public lands (unlike the UK and many EU coutnries). When most of the land is privately owned it's etremely difficuls to reverse deforestation.

kylehotchkiss

In a more fair world, states would buy this land and keep it as parks (and find their own ways to make revenue from campsites etc)

fuzzfactor

According to recent executive orders, it looks like there are plans to sell to overseas interests, but only those who would be able to pay much more than states or domestic entities.

Seems like Trump is setting himself up to sell to the highest bidder on a case-by-case basis, according to which foreign parties he likes at the time, with no opportunity at all for any that make him whine.

actionfromafar

A firesale, would you say. :)

api

... which in turn could be invested in his and his cronies' ventures, then carried away to private enclaves in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The country is being outright looted.

Also in what universe does it make sense for a country with both a trade deficit and a large domestic spending deficit to have a sovereign wealth fund? A sovereign wealth fund makes sense for countries with large fiscal surpluses.

actionfromafar

Trusk going like a wildfire.

gibbitz

This has me thinking of graduating from an Art Masters program at the start of the Bush administration to find only 300 professorships available to some 30k applicants. I am a software developer now paying for my Arts education still, 23 years later.

It's funny how the politicians say they're going to create jobs but usually due to their policies, jobs evaporate. When will we call bullshit on these claims? FDR understood that the only way for a government to create jobs was to hire people. Neo-liberal conservatives love magic thinking like creating jobs through giving money to the rich when just hiring poor people with that money is more efficient (and obvious).

actionfromafar

The neo-libs were wrong, but the neocons aren't doing this. This new breed of grifters only pay lip service to the neocon agenda. This time, it's about controlling from the top and cutting the tree of Liberty.

onemoresoop

Why were they wrong?

actionfromafar

Because you need gov regulation stepping in for some things. Behold the least bang-for-buck health system in the world.

toss1

Because while capitalism and "free markets" are excellent for solving some problems, they are not only terrible at solving other problems and make them worse.

Start with any issue related to a commons — a "free market" will ALWAYS turn it into a Tragedy Of The Commons, literally destroying the thing that was most valued.

Plus, the entire concept of a "Free Market" is nonsense. No markets are ever completely free — there are ALWAYS regulations, whether codified or informal, enforced by official agents or vigilantes, and penalties for violating those regulations. The arguments are only about what are the regulations (and really, who the regulations are designed to benefit).

Capitalism & "Free Markets" are also extremely bad at providing for all members of society when they encounter accident, hardship, illness, or infirmity.

Ultimately, overly free markets result in extremely unequal and unproductive societies, where a few people hoard approximately all the wealth and the rest of the population is barely functional.

Fundamentally, all these types of theories are wrong because they assume a baseline of the benefits of a well-regulated society, with a social safety net. They assume their "free market interventions" will result in only improvements, when the actual result will be a highly stratified, mostly poor, and dysfunctional society. The remarkable thing about history is not only that we had great minds like Newton and Einstein, but how many similar-caliber minds lived their lives in subsistence mode — those "neo-xyz theories" ultimately ensure that 99.9% of all Newtons and Einsteins will never have a chance to achieve anything.

soco

I'm confused, what are neo-liberal conservatives?

stop50

The theory expresses by an slim state that does only a few things, but does not interfere with businesses. "Trickle-down" is one "theory" of theirs: if you give money to the rich, directly or reducing taxes, the money lands in the end at the poor, but this "theory" has been disproven so often that you can't call it a theory anymore.

tomrod

My take is that the largest beneficiaries from the neocon era evolved into the network state oligarchs.

tomrod

Neocons is the more common phrasing. Chicago school economics style policy (eg Milton Friedman), use of military force to police world, etc.

mapt

"Neoliberalism" is Reaganomics, a series of beliefs about the world:

* The government is generally the problem [with our economy], not the solution to our [economic] problems.

* Low taxes, low regulation, and low barriers to trade favor positive-sum economic development.

* The market will perform most regulatory tasks for us out of enlightened self interest.

* Ricardian specialization in international trade is to the benefit of all.

* Money made by the wealthy will trickle down to everyone else's quality of life.

* The Laffer Curve is self evident and we are self-evidently always on the right side of it; Cutting taxes will increase receipts.

Conservatism is highly compatible with this worldview, but it was embraced by liberals as well after the country re-elected Reagan in a landslide. Clinton's "Third Way" portrayed itself as an alternative to traditional Republican and Democratic concerns that was socially progressive but promoted a slightly softened version of this economic theory. Some version of or equivalent to the Third Way has basically been in control of the Democratic party ever since due to its superior ability to fundraise for campaigns, due to the slow death of the labor movement, and due to the death of the dream of international communism among fringe intellectuals.

In an attempt to differentiate itself, conservatives tilted hard, hard right on social politics (if not always policy), and brought the economic policies to an extreme that would have been nonsensical a generation earlier.

Most people who didn't spend the last two or three decades living off of returns on their investments, have been frustrated with the failed promises of neoliberalism, and it is losing traction with liberals; Or rather, [neo]liberals are losing traction with the electorate.

n4r9

Thanks for this. The mention of compatibility between conservatism and neoliberalism is interesting. The UK Conservative party historically aligned with a more "mercantilist" economics. This sometimes stood in opposition to free market ideology; for example the Corn Laws divided the party, and there was strong support for tarrifs well into the 1900s. But Thatcher instituted a shift very similar to Reagan's, and by the 1990s everyone was a neoliberal.

Clubber

Neoliberalism is an economic theory embraced by both parties (and globally really), and have been since the oil crisis during Carter. It can be confused with liberalism the political theory, but it's different. Each US political party has a slightly different flavor, but economically it's the same. It's good from a macroeconomic perspective and a strategic perspective, but eliminating trade barriers allows US companies to outsource labor to poorer countries at the expense of US workers for lower prices (in a nutshell). Think Apple in China, Tata, US manufacturing in Mexico, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism#United_States

I assume neoliberal conservatives are the conservatives who embrace neoliberalism, but both parties have embraced it for generations. We seem to be rolling it back somewhat since the main strategic benefit (containing the Soviet Union) is no longer as relevant (until recently I suppose).

fuzzfactor

Good synopsis.

Even when Carter is identified during the correct time frame, it's always best to remember that the oil crisis and runway inflation that followed were the complete doing of Nixon and OPEC beforehand.

Actually in current hindsight it could most realistically be said, pointing to the most prominent national leadership involved, that such distorted economic policy arose "during" Al Saudi.