Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC
246 comments
·February 25, 2025coldpie
forevernoob
> ...the first Framework Laptop 12 motherboard is going to use Intel's 13th-generation Core i3 and i5 processors
I _really_ hope they launch an AMD version (perhaps with an iGPU) soon after that. That and preferably with Libreboot support. This would make it the ideal portable laptop for me and thus I'd be able to (finally!) replace my X220T.
brunoqc
Why would you prefer AMD? price, heat/fan noise?
aljgz
I don't know about the GP. I won't buy anything from Intel unless things change dramatically. My last Intel laptop had serious thermal throttling problem that could be completely avoided if Intel cared a bit about users. The one before had some other problems. In past 20 years, anytime I bought (or was given by a company) AMD I was happy, and as time goes by I get less and less happy with Intel.
forevernoob
Considering Intel's track record on hardware vulnerabilities, I'd much rather prefer AMD.
WhyNotHugo
I don’t quite get why framework focuses so much on Intel and AMD. ARM laptops are in the rise, and don’t need active cooling. It’s hard for me to think of upgrading to another laptop with fans when so many fanless (I.e.: silent) options are available.
MadnessASAP
To the best of my knowledge the ARM ecosystem is an absolute pain to work in, you can get Phone/Tablet SoCs painfully encumbered with out of date drivers and binary blobs. Or you can get enormous server processors that will cost $1000+. There just isn't much that's suitable for making a desktop or laptop that would meet Frameworks markets expectations.
znpy
They are a fairly small company, and going for amd/intel means reaching the widest audience.
Linux on arm is very mature, but windows on arm not completely.
That being said, other companies could very well develop and sell boards for the frameworks laptop. So much so that iirc sifive did release a risc-v laptop board to use in the frameworks laptop case.
sudosysgen
Strix Point AMD laptop CPUs are just better than non-Apple ARM CPUs across the board, and don't have the whole host of compatibility issues. There isn't really any point to them.
jzb
Oh, that's far more interesting to me than the desktop thing. I have a 13" Framework now, but a 12" would be super-nice as a travel laptop -- and the tablet conversion might let me use it as a on-the-go ebook reader.
sounds
The desktop is fascinating if AMD can pull off Rocm this round. 128GB of unified memory for only $1,999, but you get an AMD GPU.
bryanhogan
For me as well, this sounds much more exciting.
A laptop tablet hybrid that I can actually repair would be great. Would use tablet mode for image editing and hand-written notes.
roxolotl
I still think very fondly of my 11” MacBook Air. The idea of a 12” framework laptop is very appealing.
scarlehoff
Same here. I'm still using my 11" MacBook because it is the only one that fits in my handbag :)
kbouck
I had a coat with large side pockets just big enough to fit the 11" air. Not that I would ever use them for that, but it sure felt nice to have the option...
znpy
Unironically i went looking at 11” MacBook air listings on ebay earlier today.
Nowadays i don’t do much heavy computing on my personal laptop and i have an external 34” display anyway.
So yeah, a 12” would be very interesting.
Also i have fond memories of coding everyday on my 10” netbook when i was 16 :P
ortusdux
I wonder if the 12-inch form factor could be modified to support a 360 deg hinge? I enjoyed the Lenovo Yoga's tablet configuration.
jefurii
[delayed]
martey
I know the comment you're replying to called it a "180 degree hinge", but the linked Ars Technica article states that it "flips around to the back with a flexible hinge, a la Lenovo's long-running Yoga design". This is not clear from the pictures in the article, but was on display during the livestreamed event earlier today.
ortusdux
Good! Strange that their photos don't show this off. Lenovo ad-spend showcasing tablet mode was enormous.
coldpie
Sorry, my mistake, as others have noted. I corrected my post.
justinsaccount
It is a 360 hinge.
tencentshill
Having seen how students treat school-provided Chromebooks, those IO modules will get lost and damaged at light speed.
wasabi991011
I interpreted "students" to refer to university students. Seems more likely to be Framework's target audience.
xnxn
Patel mentioned in the announcement presentation that the device was originally developed with a very clear focus on high school students.
KeepFlying
They're locked in my an internal screw. So they'll at least last a few days.
kibwen
That's what we call a canny business model!
preisschild
They can get screwed down by an internal screw. They explained that for this specific use case in the linustechtips video.
ktallett
The 12 inch is what I will be considering purchasing as I already have a 13 inch AMD that I am pretty happy with.
cosmic_cheese
Reserved one of the updated base model 13’s. Battery life for this gen of Ryzen seems solid in other laptops so I’m hoping it’ll do reasonably well at stretching the FW13’s 61Wh battery for low intensity tasks, particularly in power save mode under Linux.
yonatan8070
I really want to get a Framework to replace my aging IdeaPad, but they don't ship to my region yet.
I was planning on ordering the 7840U version to where I'm staying in a trip to the US, but now it feels a bit of a let down to order a last-gen model since the new one might not arrive in time for my trip in mid-April.
tomnipotent
Have you considered looking into a personal freight forwarder? I used these a few times while traveling through Europe.
delfinom
I wish they let us get rid of the pointless speakers and get a few more whs of battery instead.
GuB-42
It is a weird product for the Framework brand.
The pitch for the Framework laptop is that it is repairable/upgradable/modular. Something that is uncommon for laptops nowadays.
This is the opposite. Desktops are modular by default, so much is that my computer is like the Ship of Theseus, I never changed it, but upgrade to upgrade, it is a completely different machine than it once was (it started off as a 486!). This one is not.
The Framework desktop doesn't look bad, but now, I am confused about the meaning of the brand. It is as if Tesla made a diesel car.
simpaticoder
I agree. I was an early adopter and have a Framework 13 11th gen intel (batch 4) and have been generally happy with it. Except the keyboard stopped working and I had to replace it, ~100 tiny screws later (and one stripped screw). And the battery drains fast (~24 hours) when suspended. And except that it won't turn on anymore without plugging into a particular USB-C port with a "dumb" USB cable (the basic 5V 900mA type) even with a full battery charge. And there hasn't been a BIOS update for this mainboard since Sep 2022.
I understand that a new company with a new product is going to have issues. But I would have strongly preferred they spent the time and effort (and money) fixing or replacing these 1st gen mainboards rather than branching out into a very non-Framework area like desktop gaming PCs.
rstat1
I had that issue on my batch 5 11th gen. There's an issue with the rechargeable CMOS battery they included (that isn't present on the later 12th and 13th gen) that when it stops taking a charge your laptop stops turning on unless you do some arcane process to reset it.
They provide a "repair" kit that's basically a dummy CMOS battery that hooks in to the normal power system that prevents the issue from occurring again.
Also just FYI, there was a BIOS update in June of last year (3.20).
simpaticoder
>There's an issue with the rechargeable CMOS battery
I am aware of the issue as described in [1] and the fix in [2]. However, my support request has gone unanswered for a year, as was my second support request. In addition, I have doubts as to whether this fix (which requires soldering!) will work.
I was not aware of an updated BIOS [3], foolishly believing the output of 'fwupdmgr' after following the instructions in [4]. It looks like I'll need to find a USB stick and update via EFI shell. Thanks for the tip!
But still, I think they should do more for early customers before expanding out well beyond their core market!
1 - https://framework.kustomer.help/my-laptop-is-not-powering-on...
2 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
3 - https://community.frame.work/t/11th-gen-intel-core-bios-3-20...
4 - https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/updating-bios-on-linu...
te-x
It's still a modular computer, just not a laptop. It's more like if Tesla made an electric scooter
abound
The soldered RAM is surprising for Framework, and doubly surprising for being so in a form-factor that usually doesn't have soldered RAM.
Similar to what other commenters have expressed, it just seems like they shouldn't have built this product if they couldn't figure out the soldered RAM bit.
p1necone
I agree. There's a lot of options for very small PC cases that will fit a dedicated GPU and regular itx components (I'm running a midori 5L system, it's great, don't ignore the instruction to use loctite on the bolts you will have pain) - I don't think the desktop market needs this the same way the laptop market needed the earlier framework devices.
yellow_lead
I feel like the target audience would build (or buy used/build used) something cheaper that's more powerful.
The form factor isn't small enough to make this worth it IMO
tomnipotent
I know very few people that do anything other than upgrade their GPU or SSD during the entire lifespan of their computer. Maybe when I was younger I'd upgrade the RAM after saving up, but am fortunate enough now to be able to buy what I want up front.
This product is for me.
A few years ago I tried to repurpose a desktop with a bad motherboard, but it was impossible to find a replacement for the 7-year-old CPU. eBay prices were more than the original MSRP, and at that point it was cheaper to buy new parts for the oldest still-selling generation.
I'm already replacing everything except the SSD and GPU with every upgrade anyway, now it will just be the SSD but I can keep the case.
ThinkBeat
It seems unframeworky
Memory, CPU and GPU once piece of metal, sitting in a tiny box.
A regular PC in a regular case, it a lot more modular and upgradable.
It does seem like an interesting box, and matches against Apple Studio I would presume.
Yet customers of Apple are used to having (near) 0 user modifiable parts.
It might well have a good market, It might b a great box. It is unframeworky.
rdedev
The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD
yellow_lead
From 7:40~ "The signal integrity doesn't work out."
I don't understand, but maybe someone else could explain.
kaladin-jasnah
I think there's like electromagnetic interference if signals across various buses in computers are too close together, making it more likely that the signals get corrupted or noisy, which could increase latency for trying to clean the signal or make it impossible to get any data of value.
Not an engineer though so please correct me. I only have a vague understanding of this.
fragmede
So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing.
edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.
sangnoir
> So don't make it then?
You presume to have internalized Framework's core-values more than the founder/CEO? The box is not my cup of tea,but they are free to experiment.
sdwr
I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly.
RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular
Spivak
They saw an underserved niche and went for it. Based on the wait time for their site seems to be working for them.
preisschild
I disagree. Modularity is good, but if there are real technical reasons why it is not possible (like in thise case), then it could be a worthwile compromise.
micromacrofoot
It's not for you then
FWIW I find the small form factor combined with the CPU and high-powered integrated GPU very appealing. I don't think I could build something with this form factor using off the shelf parts (someone correct me if I'm wrong)... it would end up needing a larger dedicated GPU.
I suspect their competition isn't actually people who build their own PCs, but people in the market for Mac Pros — they have a number of benefits over Apple here.
TheRealPomax
If you're not the audience, you're not the audience. Don't buy it. But a whole bunch of folks will be interested in this, and it lets framework dip their toes in the "not laptops" market without going bankrupt over it.
unethical_ban
There is a balance between forgetting your purpose and thinking too narrowly about your business.
At first, Framework is "laptops that are repairable". But if you broaden what they are, they are a disruptor of direct-to-consumer computing equipment, with a core competency of repairability and upgradability.
An integrated CPU/RAM is a decrease in that measure, but it is for a valid benefit - a large improvement in performance for low-power graphics and AI software. They aren't sacrificing upgradability for aesthetic, and they continue to offer fully upgradable laptops.
I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered.
jsheard
> I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered.
That's the promise of CAMM2, which is supposed to enable socketed LPDDR with almost the same performance as soldered-down LPDDR. It's still pretty bleeding-edge though so it's hard to blame Framework for sticking with soldered memory for now.
preisschild
Apparently that AMD CPU isnt even compatible with CAMM2 because of technical reasons. Framework CEO explained it in LinusTechTips video.
throwaway48476
It's on package memory that AMD sells bundled to OEMs.
throwaway48476
The mac studio uses apples upgradeable FU.2 NAND module interface.
r2vcap
Framework’s current policy in Asia—limiting deliveries solely to Taiwan—warrants reconsideration. Due to these restrictions, I had no choice but to purchase Apple products instead. To prevent further customer dissatisfaction, Framework should re-evaluate its shipping policies.
I understand that Framework’s logistics cannot match those of major retailers like Amazon or AliExpress. However, many customers rely on freight forwarders to access products from other countries. It is deeply disappointing that Framework does not allow shipments to these intermediaries, as they are a common and well-established workaround for limited international shipping. Given the widespread use of such services, excluding them seems unjustified.
42772827
This is to comply with the ever changing export restrictions enacted by the current US administration. So don’t expect it to change soon.
yellow_lead
That sounds misleading. The parent comment says all deliveries in Asia are limited to Taiwan. As far as I'm aware, export restrictions are only placed on certain chips going to China.
How do export restrictions prevent Framework from shipping to i.e Japan?
42772827
Nothing about the current regime projects stability. Taiwan is a strategic partner and the source of many parts, so it’s essentially the only “safe bet” in Asia.
When you’re a company who needs time to adapt to any change in policy (aka all of them) and a company that can’t afford fines for noncompliance (small companies like Framework) your strategy is to be as conservative as possible.
ortusdux
It looks like their event drove a lot of traffic towards frame.work - Cloudfare is giving me a 1hr 9min wait to access the site.
perihelions
Here's a screenshot (WEBP 1452 x 16383) of the product page, for anyone who wants a glimpse at what's behind the Cloudflare wall:
https://i.ibb.co/Y4n5Qhzm/framework.webp ("Framework Desktop is a big computer made mini")
bastardoperator
thank you
sdwr
Banana for scale!
christophilus
Same. This is the first time I’ve ever seen the Cloudflare queue screen.
imp0cat
I waited 20 minutes. And it was worth it.
buckle8017
Isn't the entire purpose of a CDN like cloudflare to enable bursts like that?
0x457
CF can only handle static websites, I suspect the issue the store-backend side not being able to catch up.
starkparker
The 12 isn't even up for preorder, but its landing page is gated by Cloudflare all the same.
fragmede
I should still be able to click around the pages to browse the products, even if full cart functionality isn't there.
Whoever is in charge of that website gets an L.
For that matter, it makes me reconsider my hosting of things with Cloudflare. I know nothing about framework's site's configuration, but I know I don't want my site to have a waiting line like that.
edit: also, the timer went down and then went back up, so I have thoughts about this enterprise Cloudflare feature.
nrp
I’m happy to answer questions folks have on the Framework Desktop (though probably not until later today).
znpy
Any chance this will get the amd security features for remote management (amd dash) ?
If there was a possibility to get amd dash working this would be the perfect system to use as a home server.
transpute
Congrats on beating HP Z2 Mini G1a and Nvidia Project Digits to market with 128GB of unified memory, with bonus Framework port flexibility and a better price than Apple equivalents.
Does the desktop have a discrete TPM chip (needed for DRTM support on Windows/Linux/Qubes)?
Would you consider a future model with AMD Ryzen AI Max "Pro" SoC, which has additional security features?
nikodunk
Thank you for releasing an update to the Framework 13! I have an original 11th-gen Intel w/ Xe, and I'm now ready to upgrade (esp. the graphics). Stoked I'm still supported! Gonna grab a new screen, a new keyboard, and a new Ryzen!
xeonmc
How is the planning progress on a trackpoint module?
fsflover
Can it run Qubes OS?
WhyNotHugo
> soldered-down CPU and GPU and soldered-down, non-upgradeable RAM.
They’ve brought some of the traditional modularity from desktop into the laptop world, and now bring us typical laptop design to the desktop world.
Keeping things in perfect balance.
imglorp
The Framework website right now:
You are now in line.
Thank you for your patience.
Your estimated wait time is 7 minutes.
We are experiencing a high volume of traffic and using a virtual queue to limit
the amount of users on the website at the same time. This will ensure you have
the best possible online experience.
aroman
Lol - it's not that Cloudflare can't handle the traffic. It's the _framework_ can't handle the traffic and set up Cloudflare to ratelimit entry using their Waiting Room[0] product.
Clearly poorly messaged if it made you think it was a Cloudflare capacity issue!
[0] https://www.cloudflare.com/application-services/products/wai...
winrid
Quite funny as one of these desktops could likely handle the traffic :)
ozaiworld
Soldered memory and no x16 PCIe slot on a desktop are interesting choices. Not sure who the target market is. Seems like the interconnect between boards is also pretty slow compared to Nvidia Digits or even thunderbolt 5.
throwaway48476
Laptop chips often only have x8.
null
preisschild
Probably geared towards being a LLM workstation in a small format, similar to a Mac Studio.
Etheryte
One interesting angle here could be if this had good compatibility with SteamOS to the point where it supported most/all the games the Steam Deck does. That would make it a very appealing offering, since right now DIY SteamOS setups are a pretty wild west.
999900000999
As is you can buy a decent AMD mini PC for about $500 and just install Linux on it. It works very well for the most part, and a few distros offer steam OS like experiences.
For my mini PC I couldn't get the EGPU to work with Linux so I'm stuck on Windows for now... But I play a few games that are Windows only ( anti cheat) so this is for the best.
kibwen
Ideally what you'd be paying for is Valve's first-party partnership, and therefore a commitment to tailor Proton development to specifically ensure that this hardware keeps working (at least as well as a Steam Deck works, anyway). I believe this is what Valve has done for the Lenovo Legion Go S.
nobankai
That is ideal, but also pretty unnecessary. The only thing AMD has to support on their end is Vulkan, and the work on that front is effectively finished. What Valve can offer is HID support for handheld hardware and potentially shader caching servers for huge swaths of identical hardware models.
With a desktop there's a limit to what Valve can commit to. There's not a single controller firmware to support, and probably not even a consistent GPU setup to cache for. The extent of realistic support for these AMD boards is kinda fully realized at this point. Proton is, and will remain, a plug-and-play experience for AMD users that own supported hardware.
null
yellowapple
Just about any Linux desktop or laptop supports most/all the games the Steam Deck does (and then some, given the less-severe performance constraints).
TingPing
Even if not official, it is perfect hardware for SteamOS and probably works out of the box.
onli
Framework is great because they took an entshittified category and made a good and repairable product in it, upgradeable in a way the other vendors refused to enable. That was the laptop. Now they made a less repairable desktop PC. This brings nothing to the market.
The soldered ram is particularly unacceptable. I get and believe that they could not make it work otherwise, but then they should have stopped the product instead of just adding to the e-waste.
sunshowers
There's no other way to get 256 GB/s of memory bandwidth for this cheap, and that's quite valuable in many workloads. I'm curious to get one for compiling code too.
You can get similar bandwidth with server boards that cost 5-10x as much, or with a Mac Studio that costs 2.5x as much.
i80and
Note that this is what CAMM[1] memory is intended to solve, although it remains to be seen to what extent it catches on.
pitaj
According to Framework, CAMM / LPCAMM is simply not compatible with this line of AMD chips, do to signal integrity reasons.
cogman10
> You can get similar bandwidth with server boards
Could be wrong, but I don't think you can. The bandwidth limit, AFAIK, is a problem with the DDR5 spec. These soldered solutions can go faster specifically because they aren't DDR5.
nolist_policy
Desktop platforms only have 2 memory channels, amd's latest Epyc servers have 12 channels per socket. Strix Halo has 4 channels.
sunshowers
Hmm, I think a Threadripper 7965WX can get you there. Probably around 4-5k all in so I guess similar pricing to a Mac Studio.
dragonwriter
Or the NVidia Project DIGITS device at 1.5x the cost, but, also Q2 2025 instead of Q3.
kingsleyopara
A Mac mini with an M4 Pro and 64GB of memory has the same bandwidth and costs £1,999, compared to £1,750 for the Framework Desktop when factoring in the minimum costs for storage, tiles, and necessary expansion cards.
sunshowers
True, but less RAM.
Tuna-Fish
The soldered ram was necessary for Strix Halo. There is a large group of people who really want Strix Halo, and are willing to pay for it. There is no reason they should have avoided making this product.
(The 32GB config is silly, though. With that little RAM, there is nothing it does better than a cheaper machine with a discrete GPU.)
thomasfortes
> The soldered ram was necessary for Strix Halo
In the LTT video the framework CEO explains that AMD wasn't able to make LPCAMM work because of signal integrity over the bus reasons.
But 2000 dollars for up to 110GB of VRAM in Linux makes this a VERY interesting little machine, so much that the framework website has a cloudflare queue right now...
onli
There is a reason and I think my prior comment made it clear: When your declared purpose is to limit e-waste, making a new product that does not foster that goal risks alienating the people you won with your purpose description.
h14h
This isn't competing with normal desktops.
Better to think of it as a competitor to Mac Studio & Nvidia Digits, which are much less repairable by comparison. The soldered memory is an unfortunate reality of these "unified" memory systems.
The only way to get a traditional desktop with 96GB of VRAM is to spend upwards of $10K loading it up with 2-4 GPUs.
abdullahkhalids
A big product category that is developing right now is hobbyists running LLMs on their own computers - more likely desktops rather than laptops. I presume they want to build expertise and market in this category, and that is why they think the compromise is worth it.
mywittyname
Why this over a traditional ATX work station? The article even points out the motherboard will fit in an ATX case, so size doesn't seem to be the major selling point.
For gaming specifically, so many micro ATX motherboards offer Gen 5 PCIe, which can handle a proper video card, double the RAM, and the smaller cases are only slightly larger than this Framework.
jsheard
The main selling point is the unified memory, the GPU isn't as fast as a discrete GPU but it can address quadruple the RAM of the biggest consumer dGPU. It'll be good for inference if the software stack works.
cosmic_cheese
I could see myself going for something like this for gaming actually.
My gaming needs are pretty tame to the point that my current 3080Ti has been and remains overkill (usually 2+ year old titles @ 2560x1440), and as time has gone on I’ve come to value silence (which the FW Desktop seems good at, overcooling a laptop APU with a single fan desktop cooler) over raw power. In addition, the discrete GPU story continues to escalate to all-new levels of eye-wateringly expensive stupidity which makes me not want to buy any discrete GPU until Nvidia and AMD bring their prices back down to earth and that whole mess with the new Nvidia power connector is properly resolved, and that’s to say nothing about the unstoppable creep of GPU size, heat, and power consumption.
If I could sell my full size gaming tower and replace it with an effortlessly inaudible yet reasonably powerful air cooled SFF box, I might just do it. In all truth I could probably get by fine with this first gen Framework desktop, but it would make more sense to wait for a second or third gen where the APU's graphical power comes into the range of upper-tier RTX 3000 cards so I don’t need to use framegen as a crutch for decent framerates.
Agingcoder
I agree with the point about noise. I’ve been looking for a powerful, compact and silent gaming pc for a while ( with silent then compact being more important than powerful ). I don’t need a laptop - a Mac mini-like or slightly bigger box is good enough .
When I look around, gaming pcs are mostly about big and visible, sometimes reasonably silent, almost never compact, inconspicuous and silent.
To me there is a market for this kind of product, and it hasn’t been addressed properly yet.
Since I have so far failed in my quest, I now use GeForce Now from my Mac mini which is a good approximation of what I want.
skyyler
>To me there is a market for this kind of product, and it hasn’t been addressed properly yet.
Because the market you describe has very heavy expectations, and very exacting taste.
(And critically, the capability of building one themselves.)
lelandbatey
Just a note that the GPU in this, while quite good, is still basically a midrange laptop GPU. It seems to be a tad bit better than an RTX 2060 but worse than any Nvidia card sold at a higher tier than that. You're right that's probably fine for most folks though. For folks building a gaming PC though, a RTX 4060 will probably be pretty great.
whywhywhywhy
Is the audience truly gamers? Presumed this was just poor journalism from ars
Two other Framework announcements:
New 12-inch laptop form factor with 360 degree hinge (ie "tablet mode") and a touchscreen. No price announced, but it is aimed at students: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/frameworks-laptop-12...
New mainboard upgrade options for Framework 13 models: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/framework-gives-its-...