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Brain Hyperconnectivity in Children with Autism and Its Links to Social Deficits (2013)

SubiculumCode

Vinod, often flashy and interesting, also often plays a bit fast and loose..a strategy that seems to land his lab good journals, but questionable replication. So I immediately looked at the preprocessing steps in the methods...which is, annoyingly, in supplemental 1. A few comments:

It is written so vaguely, it is difficult to understand what preprocessing steps were done and in which order (which matters). The steps to avoid motion confounds mostly talk about why they didn't do certain things (e.g. GSR regression), and not what they did do (tissue signal covariates?), what about non-GSR based noise cleaning to remove physiological and motion related noise? The study may be good,I just wish it was written more straightforwardly, and less like they are weaving past potential reviewer objections.

Vinod (v) To Vinod a paper is to write it so loose and sexy, so fast and seductive, editors are bound to wake up the morning after with a new babe. (Just a little joke among some colleagues of mine).

robwwilliams

Amusing comments provided you are not Vinod. Three sites and I would hope that connectomes were computed interleaved between cases and controls and analyzed with blinding. Is that standard? Do you think behavioral difference in the scanner could generate false positive connectome differences?

SubiculumCode

I am not sure what you mean by interleaved here. In 2013 I am not sure that site differences were as appreciated as they are today. Today, in studies that use multi-site imaging data, ComBat Harmonization is often the method that is employed to account for site effects in two ways: (1) it models site-specific scaling factors and (2) it uses empirical Bayes to improve the estimation of the site parameters for small sample sizes. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5845848/

robwwilliams

By interleaved I mean that cases and controls were not each in their own run batches, but ideally run A ,B, A, B, Yes ComBat can some of the batch effect if sample sizes are large enough. But here as you point out they are on thin ice.

bogtog

Is it too bold to say that any 10+ year old study claiming to have found across-subject brain x behavior relationship is not worth looking at closely?

SubiculumCode

Ha. I didn't even notice the date.

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The_Amp_Walrus

On this topic I really enjoyed reading "Autism as a disorder of dimensionality"

https://opentheory.net/2023/05/autism-as-a-disorder-of-dimen...

I'm just a casual reader I can't vouch for the veracity of the content, but I found it very interesting

cyocum

I am not an expert in any way, shape or form but I wonder how this squares with this other journal article in Nature: Molecular Psychiatry which came out in 2024? "11C-UCB-J PET imaging is consistent with lower synaptic density in autistic adults" https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-024-02776-2

Edited to add title of the article

spoonfeeder006

OP's article is about children, yours is about adults.

OP's article's conclusion states "Furthermore, our study highlights the importance of studying neurodevelopmental disorders closer to their onset, rather than in adulthood when a lifetime of compensatory mechanisms may have already taken place"

As I understand, autistic people often get negative reinforcement from authoritarian mindsets of society (follow the general norm and the power structures instead of thinking for yourself) and that can be kinda traumatizing for autistic people

So what we need is to value that every person's perspective is equally valid, and their ideas are plausible, and no one is inherently superior, whether NT or ASD etc...

> Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value > > -Baha'i Teaching

skissane

> OP's article is about children, yours is about adults.

Studies on biological causes of ASD are notorious for failing to replicate and reaching contradictory conclusions. It is just as likely that you’d reach the opposite conclusion with children too

Because “ASD” isn’t really a thing, it is a whole bunch of different things with different causes and different symptoms semi-arbitrarily squished together under the one label, simply because those symptoms have some overlap. And every research sample is a random mixture of these different underlying conditions, and two different samples are unlikely to have the same mix, which is why studies of the same thing with different samples (even defined on the same criteria) frequently produce opposite conclusions. “Heterogeneity” is the technical term for this

Der_Einzige

One of the lessons that I would hope that the world learns from the rise of the radical right world-wide is that platitudes about universalism, egalitarianism, empathy, and basically everything that the Baha'i faith teaches makes people hate you and want to kill you. This has been true historically (see treatment of Baha`i faith by like everyone) and is true today. These platitudes that you and the Baha`i faith (and jains) espoused seem to trigger a revulsion to "weakness" and "submissiveness" among others around them. Early Christians had to deal with the same extreme hatred.

Autistic people suffer the same fate. Dr. Hans Asperger could only say the "smart" autistic people from certain death by showing that they are useful to the war machine and could produce rockets so Nazis could continue gassing people longer.

Even today, "Autist" as a slur or insult is used even more than "Retard" 10 or 20 years ago, and the connotations around "Autist" are very similar to "Incel". Most people genuinely feel a level of horror that leads to "I wish you didn't exist" when they are around a chris-chan tier autistic person.

The world isn't ready to accept universalism, or love, or happieness, or peace or any of that hippy shit. The world wants a boot from a strongman on its face - forever!

lupusreal

Chris Chan is an abusive person and has been for a very long time (before the "internet found him", he was making rape threats against girls in his highschool.) He freaks people out for good reason. It's not fair to autistic people to use Chris Chan as some sort of archetype for autism.

skissane

> a chris-chan tier autistic person

I think a lot of Chris-Chan’s issues aren’t due to autistic traits in themselves, they are due to being surrounded by a subculture of stalkers obsessed with doing all in their power to make those issues worse

spoonfeeder006

I would say "Happy dappy dumbp dipshits" is not what I get from the Baha'i ideals

Some people are born leaders, thats their inherent personality tendencies. Often they are psychopathic, which is a congential thing, and hence not their fault in any ways. Rather, just like anyone else, they are also mines rich in gems of inestimable value

So how can you get someone like Stalin or whatnot, who can mesmerize the populace, make brave, bold and rational decisions in the face intense crisis, but at the same time help them somehow understand and internalize foundational principles of justice and equity so that their strengths can be manifest without tormenting people and thereby extinguishing so much human potential?

mlyle

Wouldn't be the first time that a syndrome ends up having basically two opposite etiologies.

Abnormal synaptic density-- high or low) producing autism-like social deficits wouldn't be too much of a surprise.

Alternatively, starting with high connectivity resulting in a greater rate of synaptic pruning and overcorrection wouldn't be a surprise, either.

All are interesting things to think about and watch evolve.

dartos

Different underlying causes for the same condition is possible.

Given how little we know about the internals of brain function, it’s not surprising to see conflicting indicators of the same condition.

I’m just a layman, tho, so what do I know.

lumost

There are also two axis of deficit in autostic individuals. Social and cognitive. Its not uncommon for individuals to present without cognitive deficit, however social deficits can still be severe e.g. A 5 year old who cannot participate in class due to meltdowns and inability to follow social norms such as sharing/turn taking/listening.

I haven't read these studies, but it seems natural that there would need to be control for the type and severity of autism.

funnym0nk3y

I wonder how that ties into the hyperconnectivity induced by various psychoactive substances like psilocybin.

All the research about GABA and glutamate seems too low level to me and not specific enough for treatment targets. Somewhat like using body weight to determine that disease.

AnthonBerg

I’d suggest tracing a line through the points of published research on autism, hyperthermia and its effects on autism spectrum related behaviors, the effect of Interleukin-17 thereon, the relationship from between IL-17 and Th17 helper cells, and the 5-HT2A receptor’s effects on Th17 cell regulation. And other stuff. Like thermoregulation. There’s more interesting stuff on the way and at every point.

To manage expectations: It’s… an imaginary line?

—- edit: on the run, hope to be able to follow up with papers

galuggus

does hyperthermia affect fungal infections? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7572136/

AnthonBerg

or vice versa, I have no idea!

I do recall reading that certain autoimmune disorders like psoriasis which are therapeutically impacted by serotonin receptors’ effects on the immune system do happen to increase susceptibility to fungal infection

iirc/afaik

before readings: that paper is wild

(I’ll approach it with a grain of salt while also not immediately discounting it)

AnthonBerg

I want to note that I am NOT making a connection to vaccines, nor do I see one. (Quite the opposite actually!)

ddmf

hmm - still feel autistic on psilocybin and other tryptamines but more aware (and it works like a reset switch), however I've never felt as normal (or more like the people around me) as I did that first summer I binged mdma - when I managed to stay awake that is...

gtsnexp

Here is where the original idea (with experimental evidence) came from: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17638926/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21423407/

SZJX

If it’s true, one idea to explain it might be oversensitivity to input (which maybe sometimes leads to withdrawal or avoidance to social situations which could be too stimulating and stressful?), which given the connection between autism and ADHD which has become discovered more and more by research in recent years doesn’t sound entirely unreasonable to me. Then again I have no expertise in this field whatsoever so can only conjecture.

davidthewatson

Does brain science have a Fitt's law?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law

This is before we even start talking about serial or parallel, concurrency, etc. And then modify the networks and the wires themselves dynamically in real-time and you have endogenous BDNF, endogenous DMT, and the fact that insulin has a different, psychoactive effect on the other side of the blood brain barrier.

It would seem that time-speed-distance would be a useful metric here, as well as accounting for the fact that we don't actually know where we are in the 6d chess of triune, bicameral, hippocampal, or glycemic variation moment-to-moment in real-time.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

linux2647

(2013)

indogwetrust

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fallingfrog

This feels like the work of a highly intelligent person operating on very scant information- it’s easy to construct castles of thought that more or less fit your experiences, but at some point the slow tedious work of conducting experiments and data has to be done, and most of these sorts of elaborate guesses turn out to be wrong.

ddmf

My clinical psychiatrist crudely described autism as taking many - sometimes longer - pathways through the brain to do things and monotropism could be simply a sticky myelin sheath.

But both could be true - a myelin sheath disorder along with hyperconnectivity could explain so many sensory issues and such singular processing.

Anotheroneagain

There is no deficit. Their neocortexes haven't died, and they are not insane.

Just like the "intelligent" physicist concocts a theory, and then proves himself completely wrong with an experiment, an "intelligent" man concocts a social conspiracy theory, but nothing proves him wrong: instead, he pronounces those who "don't get it" hopelesly stupid, too socially dumb to participate in a society.

baq

This sounds like memespeak cope. There is a deficit from the perspective of other people participating in the society. Yes, nothing died inside. No, it isn’t necessary for anything to be dead for a deficit to exist.

hiciu

The double empathy problem explains why it may not be a deficiency, just a "different brain language" between ND and NT people.

Basically, from autistic perspective, it's the non autistic people who have deficiencies in communication. There's been a whole lot of research about that in the last 10-15 years or so. And a lot of memes in the community.

blueflow

> it's the non autistic people who have deficiencies in communication

Example: In a Job interview, when you get asked why you did apply. Its the social norm to lie and make up some reason that sounds good, and saying the truth "i need money to pay my rent" makes you the weird one.

People say ND people are blunt and frank... but the other side of the same coin would be that NT people can't talk about facts.

Anotheroneagain

There is NO deficit.

While science allowed the schizophrenics to fix their material related thinking (but they eventually corrupted that anyway) and become somewhat funcional in that regard, they have always stayed socially isolated. As such, all recent history that we are taught is narrated from their perspective. People suffered horribly, until science allowed the people to rise up against THEM. Anything else is at best mentioned as a side note, utter madness, a fringe belief only held by the 95% of the people. They were harmed, opressed, subjugated and gassed, and whatever else, but now they are free.

codr7

What if growing bigger, more connected brains is the next evolutionary step?

Doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me.

qwertox

This is like assuming that cancer is good? More cells, better body?

This is just a hypothetical counter-argument. More connectivity could be better, "more intelligent", and autism seems to be "cool" among nerds for this reason. But maybe it's just a fallacy, just a way to pretend to be something better.

Again, all hypothetical.

Yesterday I listened to a podcast episode about bird brains [0]. That some birds have a way more efficient brain than ours, even if they are not as intelligent as we are. They are smarter than other primates, but their brain just weighs around 10g, while the one of chimps, which are about as intelligent as some birds, weighs 400g and consumes a lot more energy. They have an underdeveloped cortex, so apparently it isn't as important as one might think. That it could be that the cortex is more dedicated to sensing, than to thinking. Birds, for example, don't have such complex sensory inputs like our hands or our entire skin surface, that "memory mapping" all those inputs requires such a big cortex.

[0] https://www-spektrum-de.translate.goog/podcast/spektrum-podc...

aqueueaqueue

Autism plus "AI for social" coprocessor could be a wicked combo ;)

courseofaction

I know several autistic adults who check their outgoing messages with AI for unintentional meanings or recommendations to better communicate what they mean. Not getting the ai to write for them mind you. Social coprocessor indeed!

HPsquared

AKA a wife (or other life partner)

topato

Isn't it usually assumed that birds have such an efficient brain, akin to a real-time kernel, so that they can process incredibly high resolution occular input, while managing flight, and possibly possessing unknown senses (magnetic global positioning, wind speed, etc)?

bobim

This is an interesting take, along the line of elephants who need a huge brain mainly to actuate their trunk.

calmbonsai

Akin to bottle-nose dolphins and orcas with sound. They have, easily, the most signal-processing neurons of ANY species on the planet.

And, fwiw, their encephalization quotient is just behind one species--us.

Since they're aquatic mammals (given the requisite mass for thermoregulation), that severely under-represents their effective brain/body-mass ratio too.

Anotheroneagain

Birds use their optic tectums to process visual inputs, but that likely doesn't enable much more than visual recognition. The mammal brain goes far far far further than that:

It is the nature of most real life signals that they are sparse when represented in certain domains, and what the neocortex does is that it finds these sparse domains, which has at least three consequences:.

1. Simplicity. As mammal thinking doesn't deal with the world directly, but only through this latent space of sparse data, it only needs to deal with the meaningful values. This results in great simplicity, and allows previously overwhelming problems becoming manageable, then simple, and later trivial, as the neocirtex succesfully finds their sparse representation.

2. The representation in which the signal is sparse is its theory. By engaging only with the meaningful values, a mammal's thinking and creativity gets restricted to what can be relresented with those meaningful values, and so gets restricred to what is real, or realistic. Unlike the schizophrenic, which comes up with completely random nonsense that he needs to test with the scientific method, healthy people can't even conceive the theory that he's testing, as it cannot be represented within the values that they use.

Healthy people thus have very little need for science, as their brains do all the science they need in their daily lives.

The third one is reconstruction. This is what in its most extreme for allowed for various seers, oracles, visions and premonitions, and other such things, and what is already used in practice in MRA machines, once its nature is known, its sparse representation can be used to reconstruct a shockingly clear and accurate picture from seemingly hopelessly inadequate data.

neom

yeah sure my autism is real cool and all until I forget my sunglasses or my headphones die at the grocery store. cool or uncool aside, seems like life must feel considerably more comfortable than for those of us with all the senses cranked to 100 24/7.

0u89e

What you are describing is ADHD, that is quite common co-diagnosis to ASD.

0u89e

>>>This is like assuming that cancer is good? More cells, better body?

There are many things in our build up, where evolution have been outcome from viruses. However I do not like your comparision to cancer - cancerous cells are generally shredding cells from the unity of your organism - they might be making new organism, but that organism is not part of your evolution anymore. Changes that are happening in autistic brains are not destroying brains, but is part of the processes that are changing and optimizing them for the environment they have to exist in and the reasons for those changes are evolutionary - those changes started long time ago. Do you like that or not or can it be worded better - it does not really matter here.

>>>This is just a hypothetical counter-argument. More connectivity could be better, "more intelligent", and autism seems to be "cool" among nerds for this reason. But maybe it's just a fallacy, just a way to pretend to be something better.

You might be new. The mainstream argument and a direction for autistic people where it was going for a very long time has been, that autistic people were mentally disabled(not only intellectual but also emotional), which clearly is not the case. I mean, yes - that attitude might be helpful for purposes to suck out government support, but that leaves autistic people treated like deficient people, that are not contributing to society and telling a talented and intelligent person, that he is mentally disturbed would yield different results than telling that the person is very intelligent. And frankly, the issue is not hypothetical, like you have classified it but autistic people that they are smarter(at some things) stands out in the crowd. Genius and NT at this point in time is oxymoron.

>>>Yesterday I listened to a podcast episode about bird brains [0]. That some birds have a way more efficient brain than ours, even if they are not as intelligent as we are. They are smarter than other primates, but their brain just weighs around 10g, while the one of chimps, which are about as intelligent as some birds, weighs 400g and consumes a lot more energy. They have an underdeveloped cortex, so apparently it isn't as important as one might think. That it could be that the cortex is more dedicated to sensing, than to thinking. Birds, for example, don't have such complex sensory inputs like our hands or our entire skin surface, that "memory mapping" all those inputs requires such a big cortex.

You seem to have somewhat lack of knowledge and mixing things together based on what you know. Bird brains also have "cortex" - they have evolved some parts of brains, that are important to their evolution while we have massivelly developed cerebral cortex even compared to other primates, which is not what you are comparing here. Primates are much more inteligent than birds and if you realy want to go the route of comparing brain size, which you have got wrong, then brain weight to body mass comparision in birds is much lower than that to primates. As for energy that is used to operate brain, I would really need to know what is the evidence of that claim that birds are smarter than primates. It is assumed, that higher energy consumption of brains is because of amount of calculations that are happening in brains and birds brains are no more efficient than human brains - you can't use ostriches as a replacement of a very simple tasks for programming, that even dumb student can do.

The issue that you have declared that cortex is not needed is that it does not change the fact, that the cortex as part of human brains is not going to go away - cerebral cortex have developed over long time and it seems to be going to be foundation for future developments of human brains and also autistic brains. We could even get larger cerebral cortex, but expecting that some other brain regions would develop more than they are(as they also are constantly changing), compared to cerebral cortex is going against the topic, as while there are some changes in other parts of brains, the ones that are in celebral parts are more important to brains of austistic people.

We have wasted so much time in getting over your nonsense, but the information flow of human eyes is massive - the "thinking", that brains are doing is basically in discarding most of information for later processing. Autistic people have overflow of that information because their brains are not behaving "normaly"(like other human brains) and are not discarding as much information as other human brains does but tries to process it all. That is very much evolutionary change and very clearly processing more information has advantages compared to those that does not have them. Generally the things that some people are freaking about overstimulation will go away, as it is part of how changes are happening, but changes that will wire brains differently are there to stay - for all humans eventually.

computerthings

from the article:

> Brain hyperconnectivity may limit flexible resource allocation, resulting in the rigidity and need for sameness that is often observed in individuals with ASD.

Hence "more (all the time) isn't always better". If I just run all programs on my computer at once, I don't get more done. Don't forget it's a spectrum, including nonverbal.

I think we don't so much discard information, but filter data (the raw sensory input etc.), and otherwise process it, in order to derive information from it. Without any filter or structure it's just raw data, or even noise. There'd be nothing to "store" either, you can't store a full resolution reality feed at "full frame rate". I know nothing and still claim that :P

That said, also I'll claim most of the suffering of autistic people, way too much at any rate, doesn't come from anything "wrong" with them, but the friction with societies that mostly ranged and ranges from ignorant to outright cruel. So please don't take my insistence that the article does indeed describe problems, not superpowers, as denying the amazing things many autistic people do, or saying even those who don't achieve anything special or struggle are lesser for it.

BarryMilo

What do you mean by "next"? Evolution doesn't have a plan. It'd be more adapted for some things and less for others.

codr7

It's not a plan at this point, it already happened.

mihaaly

For evolution it means next known retrospectively. Naturally.

Those with hyperconnectivity not evoking social dysfunction (some dots in the charts) may become a potential step in evolution in a society not supressing evolution. And in a post Trump world of course where intelligence and the ability of collaboration for common good (needs social skills) is beneficial again.

indogwetrust

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thinkingkong

The fitness function that would govern that evolution would be new though. We’d be intentionally optimizing for brains that work that way with some new social or technical construct. Like if we said “autism is the new exposed ankles” and suddenly had many more babies who also demonstrated that trait. Or if we had access to technology that would select for that outcome, gattaca style.

aqueueaqueue

Fitness function? What if end up walking down the eugenics path or genetic engineering.

iinnPP

Society took the biggest of bats and beat the ever loving love out of the fitness function in many parts of the world.

calmbonsai

Well, there are plusses and minuses. At a certain level of size, connectedness, and semi-specialization, you get (what we label) consciousness.

It's not just size, but there is some bare minimum of nodes. It's not just pure contentedness. That's just noise. It's not just specialization. It helps with speed, but you lose plasticity and adaptability.

Also, there's a physical limit with respect to growth speed 'cuz cancer and sustainable metabolic rates wrt food intake, digestive efficiency, and thermoregulation. It seems the shrews and moles have "hacked" that in very different ways.

There's also a physical limit with brain size for live births--which we're already really, really pushing.

Honestly, I would've thought the most intelligent species would use eggs to minimize the trauma/risk of live-births to both child and mother, but I guess mother's milk is so beneficial it makes up for all of that.

SubiculumCode

Over-excitation tends to create more redundant, less synergistic information in networks. The balance between excitation and inhibition is thought by some to be requisite for efficient and flexible cognition.

RockRobotRock

Ahh yes in other words adderall/caffeine and weed.

codr7

Aka hippie speedball :)

airstrike

Is there a survival and reproduction advantage from that?

JumpCrisscross

> Is there a survival and reproduction advantage from that?

Low-grade autism is overrepresented in Silicon Valley. That wealth absolutely confers a reproductive advantage.

sanitycheck

Any evidence the reproduction rate is higher among tech workers, or even among the wealthy in general? From what I've gathered in the past autistic people are more likely than average to not reproduce.

esseph

[dead]

indogwetrust

Yes

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tgv

As someone else pointed out: more isn't better. There's an optimum, and it depends on the task. There are some "in vivo" studies about connections in the young cat's visual cortex. It starts out very connected, and most of the connectivity is lost, while structures form.

robwwilliams

Except than in brain development the general trend is to lose a large fraction of many neuron types, synapses, and excess axonal connections.