What does it mean that MP3 is free?
73 comments
·February 6, 2025userbinator
latexr
> I don't know why this article says "now". It was over 7, almost 8 years ago
“MP3 is now free. It was free seven years ago, but it is now too.”
progmetaldev
A Mitch Hedberg quote isn't as appreciated as it once was, but it still is!
hatthew
I used to appreciate that mitch hedburg quote
yencabulator
Let's roll forward to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV1 and leave this unfortunate detour of history already.
silotis
The situation with H.264 is complicated by the fact that it refers to a whole series of standards released over an extended period. The vast majority of H.264 videos in the wild only use the High profile which was first published in March of 2005, therefor any claim of essential patents covering these videos with an expiration date after March 2025 is dubious.
MPEG-LA tries to create FUD around this by lumping all H.264 patents into one big pool and never clarifying which edition of the standard a patent applies to. The end result is that anyone not already ignoring MPEG-LA's patents is unlikely to start until _all_ of the patents in MPEG-LA's H.264 pool have expired which is still several years out.
runevault
I had not seen h.264 was finally freeing up. That's huge news to me.
bubblethink
Fedora supporting h264 OOTB will be a huge win. The current setup with mesa freeworld, rpmfusion, etc. is comically bad. Year of the linux desktop FTW.
simonw
That H.264 page is almost fantastically useful, except that I find it quite difficult to read the page and understand when the remaining US patents are due to expire. Maybe I am just too impatient!
generationP
The reason why no one noticed is that everyone has been trivially circumnavigating the patents for decades (the usual model being a converter that doesn't come with its own lame.dll but asks you to put one into its folder) and Frauenhofer hasn't been caring much when it was private users as opposed to hardware manufacturers. If not for this, something like Ogg Vorbis would have taken its place.
As to files, I'm sure they start mattering to you when your train goes through a tunnel or your wifi is down. The fileless world is the leakiest abstraction of them all.
esrauch
I sometimes wonder if the name "ogg vorbis" hampered its uptake. MP3 is admittedly a pretty jargony name too but isn't otherwise "weird", compared to Ogg Vorbis is just Klingon-esque.
aeonik
The name didn't help, but the biggest issue was when I first encountered the format it was very difficult for me to find software that could play it. It's been a while, but IIRC Windows Media player and Realplayer didn't like it, I can't remember if WinAmp the time supported it either, I think it may have gotten it eventually?
progmetaldev
Adoption on Windows was definitely an issue for that time frame. Even as someone that was willing to adopt strange software, or compile it on Windows, it just wasn't worth it for the cross-platform use (mostly for mobile devices at the time, including generic players, and iPods).
I started using RockBox around 2005/2006, but it still wasn't worth converting my entire music collection to Ogg Vorbis from MP3. Right around that time, my vehicle stereo could suddenly support MP3/WMA files, and I could burn multiple albums to a CD for my truck stereo. MP3 had the broadest support across devices, and basically become an industry standard, even with the licensing.
theandrewbailey
Winamp supported it by around 2004.
chefandy
As a long time creative worker in addition to my technical work, I’ve tried in vain to explain to the FOSS crowd that names, UIs, user flows, etc a) really matter if they want anyone outside of the technical world to use their tools, and b) what other software developers think of them isn’t a good measure of those things. What Mastodon would need to have done to be a Twitter replacement for general audiences was my most recent losing battle. Lots of haughty, dismissive “federation is not that complicated” and “I think toots is a cute analog to tweet and the people who don’t like it just need to get over it.” Well, the nearly immediate mass exodus after the incredibly energetic mass adoption says everything we need to know about that.
“Well I don’t think it’s too complicated,” doesn’t really say much from someone whose profession is wrangling that complexity. “Well I don’t think it’s unappealing,” doesn’t say much from someone that has no experience wrangling the different nuanced ways different things can be appealing to different people in different contexts and how that affects the way people approach and interact with stuff.
Interface design, copywriting, branding— these are all communication mediums that deal with the emotional intangibles, instincts, and irrational tendencies we all have even when we don’t see them. It’s not about taste and aesthetic preference, they’re tools to solve communication problems. Developers on a whole have a hard enough time dealing with communication in technical documentation for software they wrote, let alone effective visual communication. I’m seeing some progress in developers realizing how much more impact software can have as a problem solving tool when designers are involved… but a whole lot still think designers just add frivolous fluff and that their quirky interfaces more informed by the API implementation than how users solve problems isn’t the problem — users failing to read their wall-o-text documentation is.
variaga
>Klingon-esque
The "Og" in Ogg was a reference to "Orion ship G" in the game Netrek (https://www.netrek.org/) so definitely not Klingon :)
(Nettrek was a star trek themed online space combat game featuring Federation, Klingon, Romulan and Orion as the playable factions)
giantrobot
IIRC "ogging" in NetTrek was carrier killing suicide run.
colanderman
Colloquially they were always just referred to as Oggs, which wasn't too weird to my ears.
To my recollection what hampered uptake was simply that most software and especially most hardware did not support Oggs. So no-one encoding for distribution (i.e., P2P filesharing) used it. And once commercial streaming services came into being, they all used proprietary DRM-backed formats (WMA, and whatever iTunes used at the time, AAC?).
By the time digital music services gave up on DRM, MP3 patents were coming up on expiry, and MP3 encoder technology had advanced closing most of the gap between it and Ogg, especially when run at higher bitrates which cheaper storage and bandwidth made acceptable to use.
But now with many streaming services using Opus, all is right in the world again.
repeekad
Are patents in general even useful in tech anymore? I remember older mentors almost keeping score with how many patents they authored, now I almost never hear the word patent mentioned unless it's a patent troll going after up and coming startups with vague yet somehow legally enforceable bs that costs millions to defend
wongarsu
They are something to mention on your resume, or to impress investors that don't subscribe to "move fast and break things"
esseph
IBM does a lot of things, but "holding patents" is one of the big ones.
justinclift
Just because IBM does something doesn't mean it's useful to anyone outside IBM.
theandrewbailey
I noticed. The MP3 patents expired in 2017.
https://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/en/ff/amm/consumer-electronics...
geerlingguy
I still rip every audio CD (including audiobooks) into MP3 and I have about 8 GB of MP3 audio files in my library (a lot of children's audio books in there for the kids).
The format plays on nearly every device that plays any kind of music ever made, files are tiny, and they sound amazing still.
It's so much different than like 480i videos from old VHS and DV tape imports from the MP3 era.
tombert
I understand for Audiobooks, but why use anything outside of FLAC for music CDs in 2025? Honest question, not trying to stop you from doing what you're doing.
I also still rip audio CDs, but I don't compress with anything that isn't lossless. Hard drive space is super cheap nowadays, and FLAC is even supported natively in my browser.
thombles
Speaking as someone who has filled up his phone pushing music onto it via SyncThing - 320 kbps MP3 gets me a lot further than FLAC!
tombert
Fair enough; makes me wish that MicroSD card slots were still standard on phones. If you had a 512GB card, then you'd be able to get an awful lot of lossless music on there.
I've heard Opus is a better bang-for-buck for the size to quality ratio, but I haven't tried it yet.
snapplebobapple
Try opus, it sounds dramatically better and has smaller file sizes
ssl-3
I couldn't hear a problem with properly-encoded high-bitrate MP3 when my ears were much, much younger, and I still cannot do so today.
I can play an MP3 anywhere that music files are played. I still can't do that with FLAC.
I know that FLAC is perfect, and that MP3 is lossy, and that such lossy formats have generational loss in re-encodes.
But I can either manage multiple overlapping collections of digital music and a conversion system, or I can manage a single collection and skip a lot of that inconvenience.
I chose simplicity.
snapplebobapple
I rip to flac and then use fileflows to convert to opus personally then syncthing to get the 50 gb of opus files to my phone. As flac my cd collection is around half a terrabyte so it only recently became possible to out the whole thing on my phone for just excessive money (grapheneos doesnt run on a phone that supports sd cards so that cheaper compromise was out for me)
hnuser435
I rip and convert to FLAC primarily for the reasons you stated, but I also have to convert to MP3 when I want to play music from an SD card on my car's head unit.
cypress66
Not him, but I use lossy because phones have small capacities and I can't be bothered to have lossless on pc + lossy on phone.
Eduard
MP3 is still far from niche as this article tries to hammer in repeatedly.
GGByron
Large hard drives and fast internet do not render obsolete the principle of frequency domain compression. MP3 and JPG will probably remain in service for a very long time.
But of course, if people weren't habituated to this bogus conception of obsolescence, how on earth would Microsoft manage to sell them a word processor for $179.00?
teractiveodular
They don't. You now subscribe to Copilot 365 or whatever the hell Office is called today for the low, low price of $12.99 per month for the rest of your life.
skeledrew
I will never forget bow one of the pains of using Ubuntu was figuring out his to get my MP3s to play. It delayed my full adoption of Linux by years and led me to using Kubuntu instead, which I continue to use today.
silisili
IIRC, and I might not because it's been many years now, all one had to do was install gstreamer-plugins-ugly.
Sure it wasn't obvious, but a quick search should have revealed that?
EfficientDude
MP3 is still the standard lossy audio format. Plays on everything, patent-free. OK sound quality (some stuff falls apart even at 320 if you have golden ears).
free_bip
Realistically, what modern device won't play OPUS files? According to xiph.Org[0] it's transparent at 120
chocolatkey
It’s actually still a bit tedious on the Apple ecosystem. On the web (Safari) you have to wrap it in a WEBM or CAF container, and on iOS it’s similar. That’s a lossless process, but it’s still not the OPUS container
cageface
The next update to my player is going to support Opus. It would be nice if it was better supported by the OS though.
qwerty456127
To me it seems OPUS is transparent at much lower than 120.
32 is more than enough for books/podcasts, 96 is more than enough for music. I doubt above-96 makes much sense for OPUS - I'd use FLAC if I needed better quality.
bscphil
I was astounded by how iffy my ability to even ABX tracks at 96 kbps in Opus was. I can't imagine needing anything else for music listening, although obviously I keep FLAC copies around as backups.
Lammy
I enjoy being able to use vintage computers and vintage portables too.
EfficientDude
[dead]
progmetaldev
MP3 is still more widely supported in most devices. Taking existing MP3's, which is going to be most people that deal with MP3, and converting them to FLAC is not going to have a benefit (along with taking time, and needing to deal with tagging, of which I may be wrong but believe MP3 has better support and more tags - on top of being able to create your own key:value tags).
CharlesW
> MP3 is still more widely supported in most devices.
AAC (including HE-AAC variants) support is also a universal option, having been included in devices since ~2010.
As I understand it, all AAC-LC and HE-AACv1 patents have expired.
reddog
I’m going to buy a WinRar license with all the money I save.
chmod775
Fraunhofer must've taken a quite a hit to their budget, or so I thought, but it turns out that revenue from MP3 licensing was only about ~100 million EUR annually.
Seems the license came quite cheap anyways.
dzhiurgis
Amazingly you are still not free to use them on iPhone's Music app.
snypher
I plugged my S23 into a computer to copy files from it and my iPhone-using co-worker looked at me like I was a wizard. There is such a major culture gap on how the different device families work, and so hard to understand the other family.
dzhiurgis
Yeah you can plug iPhone into computer, which I haven't done for years now. Only reason was to load it up with mp3s.
Last weekend I've tried to do the same without a computer and basically you can only use players like VLC which only allowed me to load single file (playlists are there, but again you have to connect to computer).
Edit: Just tried one more time and you can place files into VLC folder (using Files is a bit tedious tho) and they appear in VLC player. Yay.
nyarlathotep_
It's annoying as hell though--with Android devices you can see Downloads or Pictures or whatever and move things to and fro as you please.
With ios you need a Mac and you are stuck with the 'Photos' app and or otherwise it's some ugly abstraction with weird year_month_day directories all over the place.
scarface_74
MP3’s have been supported by Apple’s devices since the first iPod came out in 2001. The headache is that there is no way to transfer files to add to your Music library locally except from your computer like it was still 2001.
Yes, I’m aware of the work around using GarageBand for iOS.
dzhiurgis
Okay I've just tried VLC once again and it's almost useable - I can easily select all mp3's from local files and play them. It doesn't allow to copy them into VLCs library tho - so no playlists.
Edit: Just tried one more time and you can place files into VLC folder (using Files is a bit tedious tho) and they appear in VLC player. Yay.
scarface_74
I’m talking about the native music player and using your computer to copy them into your library.
lowdownbutter
> Let me tell you what you do or do not know.
I don't know why this article says "now". It was over 7, almost 8 years ago that the final patents on MP3 expired. There was even HN discussion at the time:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14240645
More notable is that many H.264 patents are expiring this year:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Have_the_patents_for_H.264_M...