Young men now spend more of their free time alone than any other group
136 comments
·January 23, 2025daniel_j
forgotoldacc
To be fair, saying you're interested in Linux and programming is also very surface level. It's like saying you like art.
But what kind of art? There are some great slam poetry events. What about interpretive dance? What about tea ceremonies? What about abstract monotone painting done with watercolors? What about painting Warhammer miniatures?
It's a massive field. So is programming. It's possible to meet with a person who also loves programming, but if you like working on networking backends and the other person really just loves writing shaders, programming alone is hard to find a common ground. It's like a person who loves slam poetry talking about their hobby with someone who's only interested in Warhammer. When they find a common topic to talk about, it'll probably be anything but slam poetry and Warhammer. It'll be a different hobby, like surfing or making homebrew beers.
What I'm saying is, expand your interests. Try some things you've never even imagined being interested in before. You'll be surprised what you enjoy.
daniel_j
well obviously here I didn't go into specifics because this isn't my blog post or bio section.
I've tried board games and table tennis groups, it's at least something. I just found no interest there. I understand your point, for me it isn't easy to show up to something without a real interest or knowing someone. There's more to it than just deciding to go. I have to somehow get out of the door and show up, I'm not a very social person.
Contradictory I know. Until a year ago I was happy alone and never had a friend in teenage+ life, but finding someone I actually liked taught me people can be good.
Reubachi
without getting into my thoughts on this/your feelings, these types of hobby groups are closed loops and generally a sort of side quest in life.
Join a random volunteering event thru a local hospital, Veteran's affairs, shelter, hiking trails etc. You will organically meet people from outside your social strata/norms who you will organically hear from/reach out to and discover their organic hobbies/interest and gain a network. Why volunteer? It's free, quick, rewarding, and generally weeds out weirdos.
thefz
My experience: I can name 3-4 people I know outside work that at least know Linux. Every other acquaintance I regularly associate with has been met either mountain biking or running.
I would never expect them to discuss alsa or systemd, and that is a blessing IMO. Gives me space to think about other things.
My best advice is to find some other activity that you love doing and start from there.
pabs3
There are several LUGs in Melbourne/Victoria, LUV has no events planned this year yet, but MLUG has one very soon:
https://www.luv.asn.au/ https://mlug-au.org/ https://linux.org.au/lugs/
The Linux Australia conference (happening right now, in Adelaide this year) will often have local folks at it:
esperent
For me, the best way to meet people is exercise. I don't enjoy competitive sports, but there's plenty of non competitive sports and exercise out there, e.g. climbing, yoga, workout classes, hiking, cycling running, martial arts, dance etc.
You might say you have no interest in these, to which my response is: stop complaining and damn well develop an interest! Your body needs to be taken care of, and if you ignore that you might get through your 20s and 30s, but past that you're gonna start having serious health issues. So you can both improve your future and develop a social life.
Rather than just finding people in your narrow interest groups - Linux, coding, whatever - you'll meet people from all different walks of life. Some hyper focused on exercise, but mostly just normal people with a healthy outlook on taking care of their bodies.
johnnyanmac
I'm sure it's YMMV but I haven't met a friend through exercise since college. And I've done cycling classes, hikes, and some sports. Dynamic just feels so different with adults who want to be "around" people but not necessarily form new connections.
defrost
It's possible, anecdotally in Australia both myself and other family members have formed new friendships that have lasted and had breadth outside of purely physical activity from Canoe Clubs (on the Swan River), Biking (Pedal and motor), and Walking Track maintenance (local 1,000 km volunteer managed walking track).
To be clear those friendships formed more from a common interest in organising activities and club events than just the pure unadulterated physical activity part.
joshlemer
Take up an interest you can do socially and really dive deep into. For me, I easily made friendships with people after taking up viola and joining an amateur adult beginner orchestra. For you it might be rock climbing, or guitar, or maybe you could join a local crochet group if you’re into that.
I love programming too, and used to go to meetups before covid, but I think the music crowd for me has been easier to turn into a social thing.
tomohelix
I mean, this is like telling an obese person to just exercise and lose weight. Fact is, while it is that simple to those who are already doing it, to them, it is not that simple. The activation energy to the hobby can be immense and may require the person to change their entire lifestyle to accommodate it. For example, an obese person who suddenly exercise may come to work the next day worn out and less productive. They will also feel hungry and more irritated since they are not yet used to it and this can affect their social interactions. Eating becomes difficult and less enjoyable as they have to watch their calories intake and food type. Sleeping is harder with the hunger, etc.
I can fast almost everyday and I feel nothing even if I skip breakfast and lunch for the whole week. But I came to know many healthy people who hate to do the same to the point they can't do it even if they want to. Extrapolate, I understand what is easy and feel low effort for one person is not the same to someone else who is accustomed to the exact opposite. It takes more than just stating the obvious to help them.
cocacola1
But there’s really no way to get around it. Yes, you’ll have to put yourself in uncomfortable situations. There’s no one simple trick that’s going to mitigate that and trying to find a path that’ll get you there without discomfort is only delaying the inevitable.
2muchcoffeeman
You stopped at one meetup? What are your interests beyond Linux and programming?
daniel_j
I stopped at one because I can't find anything else I'm remotely interested in. I don't particularly have interests beyond Linux and programming. I know that's limiting, but it is what it is
troad
Shared interests are a key way to build social connections. You say you're frustrated, but then you say "it is what it is" about the most obvious way to make friends. Your frustration sounds like the result of self imposed limitations.
Here's my 2c. Pick an interest that attracts the kind of people you want to spend time with. Immerse yourself in that interest. Go meet people who share that interest. Spend time with them.
Any previous experience with that interest is not necessary - you can be honest and say you're new and learning. People tend to love sharing their interests.
jayd16
If the goal is social interaction, just force yourself to do things others like. Maybe you'll end up finding other interests or striking gold.
Worst case you're hanging out doing something besides your favorite thing, but you're still hanging out.
bowsamic
I'm not sure why you are surprised your possibilities of connection are so limited when your interests are so limited
2muchcoffeeman
If you understand that it’s limiting, then I guess you need to try to go to the Linux meetups and if that doesn’t suit you, find new ways of being happy?
You’re not giving anyone much to work with. I honestly can’t imagine only having 2 interests that are related.
Hope you find some joy!
defrost
Do you have any notion of what it is you'd like to do with Linux and programming?
Deep dark buried backend stacks in cloud infrastructure, or perhaps control a drone that monitors engineering or construction progress, etc.
smogcutter
I mean, it sounds like what really fits the bill for what you’re looking for are coworkers or collaborators more so than friends.
Which is fine, and recognizing that might help you find it. End of the day, having meaningful social connections takes actually being interested in other people, not just a shared external interest, or hobby.
cts1
Maybe you will find some fellow nerds interested in going deeper here: https://mess.foundation/
A creative hobby in which you could apply your programming skills perhaps?
llm_trw
Two years of lock downs killed most of civic society. It used to be that there were several interesting meetups every day. Now you'd be lucky to find one once a month.
johnnyanmac
Yup, I can confirm. The difference in meetups post and pre-pandemic is stark. Feels like a lot of society collectively realized they like being indoors and isolated and stayed that way. Can definitely say that for a few friends.
Of course, the party goes bounced right back. More introverted activities, not as much.
null
em-bee
you say not being able to meet people is not by choice because there are so few people that have similar interests. as others have pointed out, your interests may be to limited but the point i am trying to make here is that limiting your interests is your choice.
i can feel your plight. i too struggle to connect with people if they don't share my interests. but i learned to try to approach finding friends like finding a partner. i know that it is very unlikely that i'll find a partner that shares my interests, so i have to branch out and look for other things that may be interesting too.
you already looked into video games and DnD. but keep looking.
one thing that is important is to not give up to quickly. you will not connect to everyone right away.
what was wrong with the board game club, for example? the wrong people? the wrong games? try going there a few times, see if the games and the people change. but most importantly, be patient and stick through the awkwardness of joining a group where everyone already knows each other and you are meeting them for the first time.
re video games and DnD, you may be tired of it, but if you are new to a city, it may be the way to get to know some people and learn about other activities of interest. move around, try different things. sometimes it is serendipity. i visited a friend in one city, but then i became friends with the landlord that i rented from, and a whole new world opened up that my initial friend wasn't connected to at all. keep your eyes open.
johnnyanmac
>but i learned to try to approach finding friends like finding a partner.
Swipe right on 1000 friends and hope months later someone responds back? Only to get a "hi" and then when you reply you get blocked?
It can feel that way sometimes yea.
>what was wrong with the board game club, for example?
I just don't like board games. I even was working at a startup making a custom campaign, so I had to play test plenty of that as we as compare with some other kinds of games. Boss was clearly a very passionate DM, but I just never truly "clicked" into that role playing myself.
So I've tried and just accepted board games aren't for me.
>re video games and DnD, you may be tired of it, but if you are new to a city, it may be the way to get to know some people and learn about other activities of interest.
I'm shocked how little game meetups there are in my city. Seemed like there wee a decent amount pre-pandemic, but they got utterly wiped out when the world re-opened. I only see a semi-consistent one and it's monthly.
em-bee
I just don't like board games. I even was working at a startup making a custom campaign
sounds to me like you are talking about role playing, which is one kind of table top game, while board games in general are an entirely different kind of table top game. chess is a board game, risk, settlers of catan, that sort of thing. possibly even magic the gathering. basically anything that is not about role playing. a board game club would generally be about those, not about role playing.
the key point here is that while role playing may not be your thing, most board games have an entirely different dynamic, and if you haven't tried them yet, i recommend you take a look.
zabzonk
Anecdotal, but speaking as a nearly 72 year old, I spend almost all of my time alone, except for my (fairly crap) carers, and my (very nice) cleaning lady/cook, and her little doggie. But I do feel a bit lonely, but I think I always have.
JALTU
I'm a bit behind you in years, but/and am very comfortable doing things by myself or in small groups; I would say I even prefer being alone most of the time. As a manager in tech, there's plenty of human interaction at work!
I have been looking ahead and wondering about this however. Thx for sharing.
lemagedurage
I wonder if this is simply a transition to online platforms.
For example, this source reports 245 million monthly active Discord users in the US: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/discord-u...
hn_throwaway_99
Online platforms are not a substitute for real, in-person friendships. I forget the researcher who coined the term AI for "artificial intimacy": when you've got 1000 "friends" on social media but nobody to feed your cat when you go on vacation.
knowaveragejoe
I find it hard to believe more than 2/3rds of the US are active on discord. That can't be right.
rpmisms
Probably many of those are people from other countries using VPNs.
PhilipRoman
I really hate this style of headline (which is not from the original article apparently). It should go in the garbage bin along with "fastest growing" and others. By itself it doesn't tell you any meaningful information. Maybe "young men" are spending just a few percent more of their time alone than the next group. Maybe that other group started spending less time alone. The actual "problem" is that time spent alone has drastically increased, not that they surpassed some other group, and that's what the headline should say.
FearNotDaniel
I don’t know if the HN Title has been altered since you posted this, but the verbatim wording “Young men now spend more of their free time alone than any other group” is in the screenshot of the chart taken directly from the original FT article, so that part stands despite your own hatred of such a choice of words.
Whether that claim is (a) true and (b) significant, that’s a different question. However it seems that you and I are living in different bubbles because when your gut reaction is to feel the headline claim is false and/or meaningless, my immediate reaction is that it corresponds with ideas I’ve frequently encountered recently, that young men are finding it increasingly hard to form meaningful friendships and that some of the outcomes from that are an increased rate of depression, suicidal tendencies, violence towards each other and towards women, and a greater likelihood of being radicalised by extremist political groups of any flavour.
I don’t know whether my worldview or yours is more correct, the truth is perhaps somewhere in the middle, all I know is that if there is a possibility that any of this is both true and significant then it takes calm and nuanced discussion backed up by well researched facts and a willingness to try potential interventions as a society - unless of course research and not just gut instinct tells us: no, this really isn’t a problem, we do live in a fair and just society and nobody is suffering.
lelanthran
> young men are finding it increasingly hard to form meaningful friendships and that some of the outcomes from that are an increased rate of depression, suicidal tendencies, violence towards each other and towards women,
Isn't violence towards women by the target demographic (Young American Men) the lowest it has ever been in human history?
FearNotDaniel
I don’t know, perhaps it is. If you have some data to back that up (or even a report from consumer media that dares to name its sources) then please do link it. My point above was that it’s easy to respond to such stuff with a gut reaction instead of pursuing research (which includes questioning the source, methodology and bias where appropriate). I’m currently too busy with my day job to go and research this in depth but hopefully the HN hive mind will produce a bunch of evidence by the end of the day…
PhilipRoman
Definitely didn't mean to deny the problem. In fact, I agree with the article in it's entirety. My criticism was purely technical and applies only to the headline on HN. I've seen this trick used too many times to push various worldviews and I've started to look out for such statistical lies in media.
FearNotDaniel
I agree 100%: sensationalism helps nobody except extremist politicians, the media/tech channels that monetise engagement and anyone else who stands to profit from outrage and division in society.
akimbostrawman
headlines like this should only exist if the mentioned group actually is worth caring and socially beneficial to talk about.
lazide
So young men shouldn’t be cared about, and aren’t socially beneficial to discuss?
If that’s the approach, historically that’s how you end up with violent street gangs, out of control criminal behavior, or massive numbers of NEETs.
akimbostrawman
>(young) men shouldn’t be cared about, and aren’t socially beneficial to discuss?
They already aren't in any other issue discussion (violence, suicide, homelessness, jobless, legal, sickness, education) so at least it would be consistent.
vinyl7
Men already aren't cared for
echelon
I won't interpret this as a battle of the sexes. Instead, I'll argue that we simply have it "too good" and now eschew other effortful forms of entertainment, companionship, and adventure.
Phones provide all the dopamine we need, perfectly fit for our attention and interests. Always on, never-ending streams of it. Everything else in life just doesn't provide the same immediate hit. It takes too much effort to hang out with friends, go to the community theater, or go out on a date.
The internet and its algorithms are turning us into zombies.
bowsamic
I agree, and it isn't just phones
It's movies, books, hobbies, plays, etc.
Yes, even the good ones, even your David Lynch or your copy of Critique of Pure Reason
It isn't, as some people imagine, pure dopamine machines shovelling out easy to consume content, but even also access to (made possible by both far increased literacy and far increase education) works that entertain us that are imagined as higher. We simply can't get bored
johnnyanmac
I never interpreted it as such. Simply that cultural and biological factors will affect the sexes differently. This impacts men more because they simply don't tend to have as many deep friendships, nor do they talk as frequently.
But yes I agree. We are victims of convinience. a soft form of the classic VR immersion dystopia. All the joy in our fingertips, so who needs friends?
CMay
A journalist recently wrote an article in The Atlantic covering the epidemic of people spending more time alone and did an interview to talk about it.
PBS - “The Anti-Social Century:” Inside America’s Epidemic of Solitude | Amanpour and Company
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz8KrZFhaxU
People have been talking about this issue for a long time now.
We know it's an important problem and it's not the first time community has sort of collapsed, but it takes time for society to adjust back to a balance. Whether we force a fix or not, after the older generations pass away there will be more opportunity and sense of purpose/meaning in reaching out.
When stability and satisfaction is relatively achievable without others, the required motivational threshold for putting in the effort to make connections gets higher. This compounds when some businesses, events and organizations that rely on strong socializing tendencies to succeed start to decline. Then those have to be rebuilt once people realize the problem.
The worry is that the internet and online socializing could keep us in a groove that limits the effectiveness of any corrective measures, reducing the ROI on initiatives to solve it.
euroderf
> When stability and satisfaction is relatively achievable without others, the required motivational threshold for putting in the effort to make connections gets higher.
Maybe it's something simple, like: the mind craves words - and expressions made thereof - and social media gives just enough of a fix that the restless mind is not driven to seek out conversations & encounters in the flesh. Shyness becomes self-reinforcing. Awkward wins.
CMay
I don't necessarily think it's simple from that angle. It's more like convenience and efficiency often come with encapsulation and reduced friction, which puts us in bubbles that cause us to slip right past eachother. That alone causes so many things to snap into place in the direction of training us to enjoy self-time until it reaches unhealthy saturation.
johnnyanmac
>once people realize the problem.
That may be the unique issue. Maybe a good portion of people never realize the problem and sustain on artificial intimacy. The internet is really good at giving people the facade of such interactions.
jppope
Seems totally healthy and I'm sure no bad will come of this.
OutOfHere
I am not convinced that it's unhealthy. Young people, especially males, can easily emulate a ton of bad behavior while offline, much of which is now avoided. At this time of the year, the viruses can be unforgiving too.
johnnyanmac
I think we have enough "personalities" online to easily dispel the idea that young people can't emulate bad behaviors online. Politics aside, a decade ago they were literally eating bleach en masses.
null
akimbostrawman
Don't worry if it gets too bad people in power will just start the meat grinder
matrix87
24M, don't want kids. not going to marry (if no kids, why fuck yourself?). sex is fun but not fun enough to make me consider any of the previous things
A bunch of our social activities center around families or dating (and dating culture is just a precursor for marriage for most people)
I'm genuinely convinced (as a young man) that the reason why people are "upset" about us being alone is because they'd rather screw us into arrangements that benefit them. It's just manipulation disguised as concern
bradlys
As someone who is entering the age where I should be spending as little time as possible in my life alone (presumably because I’d be married with kids) I’m looking at a very lonely life in the traditional sense. I’m single with no indicator of that changing.
I have a decent amount of friends and see people regularly at my gym since I workout everyday. So, there’s always some minor socialization on any given day. My big woe though is that there’s no easy way for me to meet women. All the things I do normally are just not popular with women and most men are terrible for introducing you to women. After all, any guy who knows a woman who is eligible and attractive will burn the bridge himself unless he’s not single but even then - usually is not encouraged to know such women due to his partner. Even when I try to branch out and do things that are more popular with women, it’s a very challenging environment to get anywhere socially. Yoga and Pilates classes aren’t known for their social atmosphere and if you join in on a cardio dance class - your sexuality and masculinity will inherently be questioned.
Seems most people 25+ rely on dating apps to meet opposite sex now and I’m sure that contributed a lot to the loneliness figures. A lot of us have little reason to go out if we don’t think there’s at least a chance at romance - and the amount of good spaces to meet partners has dwindled.
techjamie
What about hobbies that are more unisex? A lot of women hike, maybe find a hiking or bike riding group. Something with art, books, whatever. Branch out into other things, find something you can genuinely enjoy. Don't go into it with the mindset you're gonna date, just have fun and get to know people. If something is going to happen, let it naturally happen.
> Yoga and Pilates classes aren’t known for their social atmosphere and if you join in on a cardio dance class - your sexuality and masculinity will inherently be questioned.
If you're really interested in joining those, just do it. Who cares what people think? If someone thinks less of you because your hobby isn't manly, that's their problem.
bradlys
Statistics matter in these. If there is even a slight gender imbalance in the singles - it creates a very challenging environment.
I’ve investigated groups for hiking and cycling - here in nyc I can say they don’t exist in good numbers (especially in winter) and don’t attract eligible women.
If you go out and do things without the mindset to date as a man - you won’t get dates. Men have to initiate conversation, men have to ask for contact details, men have to organize and plan dates, etc. Women don’t do any of the initial courting. Just going out and being in a space is not going to get you laid as an average man.
This is why people use dating apps so much now. To get a date in real life is exceptionally challenging. You have to first figure out where single women are evening going out (they don’t - single men dominate almost every social activity) and then you gotta court a bunch of random women who you know nothing about in hopes they’ll be a fit. 9/10 times you’ll find out you have completely different life goals within the first 30 minutes.
I think this is why dating apps are so popular. I wish they worked for me but I’m ugly - so I have to stick with real life and hope I meet women with vision problems.
techjamie
Don't go into it looking for a date, make friends with them, single or not. Do things as friends outside the hobby if it goes there, not necessarily as a date, but just to hang.
Maybe you'll grow it into something more, maybe they'll have a cute friend they can set you up with. I started out with my girlfriend as a friendship and we both caught feelings. I frequented her work and we had fun talking, and she gave me a reason to get her number after a while. 3 months later we were dating.
ryandrake
Also, keep in mind that women [at least say they] don't want to be approached while they're out doing hobbies like hiking, bike riding, visiting museums and art exhibits, or when they're grocery shopping or running errands, or at the park with their kids, or... really anywhere, it seems. So, "just go out and court" is not really 2025-realistic advice.
I'm so thankful I'm long-since married and out of this rat race. A few of my male friends my age are post-divorce and they all say the same thing about the dating world today: It's horrible and pretty much impossible for guys. Their ex-wives are having the times of their lives, though! Good luck to you, my dude.
yes_really
Did you try a professional matchmaker? There must be matchmakers specialized in professionally successful singles in NYC.
bradlys
Yeah, I looked into it. Part of the deal with professional matchmakers is that they're very selective with their male clients. One said they wouldn't take on a client if they didn't believe they had over 80% chance of matching them.
So, typically, for these matchmakers - they are taking on men who are executives and above average physically. They won't take on your typical engineer who got 7-8 figures out of an IPO because those men are low status and generally unattractive. The men must also have relatively modest bar. They cannot expect perfection. Matchmakers for men are mostly about freeing up the mans time and not about doing something he could never do. For these men, spending hours on dating apps, tuning profiles, messaging random women, etc. is a huge time/money sink. They'd rather pay someone what feels like a drop in the bucket at $50k ("It's one banana, Michael. How much could it cost, $10?") and have them set up the dates.
I've yet to meet a matchmaker that would take me on because they know I'm too challenging of a case. The man needs to be high status, physically attractive, and have reasonable standards (which might still be outlandishly high for the general population but these are typically top 0.1% men). I'm neither high status nor physically attractive. I can't even get matches on any dating app and that's not usually the case for these men. They have too many and don't know what to do and need someone to filter it down for them.
yes_really
Interesting. I didn't know they were so focused on the most sought-after men. In some cultures, a large fraction of men is matched by matchmakers.
johnnyanmac
>They won't take on your typical engineer who got 7-8 figures out of an IPO because those men are low status and generally unattractive
low status? I'm not gay but I'd date you. Stability is way sexier than some sort of "I can fix him" broken/badass persona that people are stereotypically magnatized towards.
But yeah I apologize. I'm the same place without the IPO. All I can say is to just spend some time "fixing you". hire a private nutritionist and maybe trainer and just... ugh "looksmaxx", as the kids are saying.
Even if it somehow doesn't work, you'll feel a lot better about yourself.
bravetraveler
Alone is the closest to fulfilling I get, when the day is spent chasing the whims of others
llm_trw
Is this alone or 'alone'?
I remember in 2000-2006 spending a ton of my time with friends at a lanshop, because our computers were terrible.
It would have counted as in person time, but once we got better computers and internet we just started hanging out online with webcams and voice chat instead.
Nothing much changed apart from spending a lot less money and going to bed at a more reasonable time - the 24 hour discount was probably not the best for our sleep schedules.
ChrisArchitect
Related recent stories on this topic:
Surgeon General says loneliness is driving US into anxiety and pessimism https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42330341
Loneliness in Midlife: A Growing Gap Between US and Europe
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39752487
The myth of the loneliness epidemic
At least for some of us, this isn't by choice. I have no interest in clubs, bars or drinking - in a new city. How am I to meet people? I keep getting told go to clubs and meetups. I found one boardgame club and went to it, it wasn't for me. Now what? I can't find a club of programmers or Linux users that meet more than once in a blue moon.
If you're in Melbourne and are actually into Linux/programming I'd love to hear from you. I'm tired of being 'nerdy' meaning playing DnD or video games, I want to mix with people interested in something beyond surface level.
If you can sense a hint of frustration in my typing you'd be correct