Apache Iceberg
67 comments
·January 23, 2025mritchie712
adesh_nalpet
You can just used Iceberg Java API: https://iceberg.apache.org/docs/1.6.1/api/#file-level
Use it with Dropwizard/Springboot, you get to expose rest APIs too.
romperstomper
you can just use iceberg tables with AWS Glue/Athena
hipadev23
aws glue/athena has the most absurd setup process. duckdb and clickhouse is “select * from s3(…)”
romperstomper
I'm not sure what do you mean by "absurd setup". In case of Athena you just use the iceberg type for a table as you create it and that's it. Under the hood AWS also uses Trino or Presto as far as I know.
dm03514
I think iceberg solves a lot of big data problems, for handling huge amounts of data on blob storage, including partitioning, compaction and ACID semantics.
I really like the way the catalog standard can decouple underlying storage as well.
My biggest concern is how inaccessible the implementations are, Java / spark has the only mature implementation right now,
Even DuckDB doesn’t support writing yet.
I built out a tool to stream data to iceberg which uses the python iceberg client:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/streaming-iceberg-using-sqlfl...
gopalv
Hidden partitioning is the most interesting Iceberg feature, because most of the very large datasets are timeseries fact tables.
I don't remember seeing that in Delta Lake [1], which is probably because the industry standard benchmarks use date as a column (tpc-h) or join date as a dimension table (tpc-ds) and do not use timestamp ranges instead of dates.
fiddlerwoaroof
Delta Lake now has Hilbert-curve based clustering which solves a lot of the downsides of hive partitioning
gopalv
> Hilbert-curve based clustering which solves a lot of the downsides of hive partitioning
Yes, that solved the 2-column high NDV partitioning issue - if you had your ip traffic sorted on destination or source, you need Z-curves, which are a little easier with bit twiddling for fixed types to do the same thing.
Hive would write a large number of small files when partitioned like that or you lose efficiencies when scanning on the non-partitioned column.
This does fix the high NDV issue, but in general Netflix wrote hidden partitioning in specifically to avoid sorting on high NDV columns and to reduce the sort complexity on writes (most daily writes won't need any partitioned inserts at all).
While clustering on timestamp will force a sort even if it is a single day.
autodidacticon
What is NDV partitioning?
teleforce
Apache Iceberg is one of the emerging Open Table Formats in addition to Delta Lake and Apache Hudi [1].
[1] Open Table Formats:
Icathian
I think this mischaracterizes the state of the space. Iceberg is the winner of this competition, as of a few months ago. All major vendors who didn't directly invent one of the others now support iceberg or have announced plans to do so.
Building lakehouse products on any table format but iceberg starting now seems to me like it must be a mistake.
bdndndndbve
Yeah working in the data space I see a ton of customers using Iceberg and some using Delta Lake if they're already a Databricks shop. Virtually no Hudi.
jl6
The table on that page makes it look like all three of these are very similar, with schema evolution and partition evolution being the key differences. Is that really it?
I’d also love to see a good comparison between “regular” Iceberg and AWS’s new S3 Tables.
benesch
Yes, the three major open table formats are all quite similar.
When AWS launched S3 Tables last month I wrote a blog post with my first impressions: https://meltware.com/2024/12/04/s3-tables
There may be more in depth comparisons available by now but it’s at least a good starting point for understanding how S3 Tables integrates with Iceberg.
jl6
Cool, thank you. It feels like Athena + S3 Tables has the potential to be a very attractive serverless data lakehouse combo.
pradeepchhetri
ClickHouse has a solid Iceberg integration. It has an Iceberg table function[0] and Iceberg table engine[1] for interacting with Iceberg data stored in s3, gcs, azure, hadoop etc.
[0] https://clickhouse.com/docs/en/sql-reference/table-functions...
[1] https://clickhouse.com/docs/en/engines/table-engines/integra...
tlarkworthy
I would say it doesn't but it is actively working on it
mritchie712
duckdb has the same issue[0], I submitted a PR, but it's been stalled
tlarkworthy
Oh they just fixed this 9d ago and I guess this comment provoked them to close the issue!
pradeepchhetri
I am looking forward to learn about such upcoming features in the community call https://clickhouse.com/company/events/v25-1-community-releas...
volderette
How do you query your iceberg tables? We are looking into moving away from Bigquery and Starrocks [1] looks like a good option.
macqm
Trino is pretty good (open source presto).
adesh_nalpet
Common opensource options (other than Spark and Flink): 1. Dremio: https://www.dremio.com/ 2. Trino: https://trino.io/ 3. Iceberg Java API: https://iceberg.apache.org/docs/1.6.1/api/
czwief
Starburst (full disclosure: I work there) provides a query engine (trino under the hood) with Iceberg support [1] -- worth checking out.
mritchie712
right now, starrocks or trino are likely your best options, but all the major query engines (clickhouse, snowflake, databricks, even duckdb) are improving their support too.
jl6
Why away from bigquery? Just wondering if it’s a cost thing.
volderette
Yes, mainly driven by cost. BigQuery is really unpredictable when dashboards with filters are being used intensively by users. We don’t want to limit our users in their data exploration.
crorella
What I like about iceberg is that the partitions of the tables are not tightly coupled to the subfolder structure of the storage layer (at least logically, at the end of the day the partitions are still subfolders with files), but at least the metadata is not tied to that, so you can change the partition of the tables going forward and still query a mix of old and new partitions time ranges.
In the other hand, since one of the use cases they created it at Netflix was to consume directly from real time systems, the management of the file creation when updates to the data is less trivial (the CoW vs MoR problem and how to compact small files) which becomes important on multi-petabytes tables with lots of users and frequent updates. This is something I assume not a lot companies put a lot of attention to (heck, not even at Netflix) and have big performance and cost implications.
varsketiz
I'm somewhat surprised to see it here - Iceberg is around for some time already.
benjaminwootton
It’s been on the up in recent years though as it appears to have won the format wars. Every vendor is rallying around it and there were new open source catalogues and support from AWS at the end of 2024.
mritchie712
yeah, I'll admit I was worried when Databricks acquired Tabular[0] that it would hurt Iceberg's momentum (e.g. databricks would push delta instead), but it seems the opposite has happened.
0 - https://www.definite.app/blog/databricks-tabular-acquisition
twoodfin
I was more worried—and continue to be so—that Databricks will bring the rat’s nest of complexity and pseudo-open source model that characterizes Delta to the future of Iceberg.
mrbluecoat
Yeah, I was confused as well. It was like seeing "postage stamps" on the HN front page.
nikolatt
I've been looking at Iceberg for a while, but in the end went with Delta Lake because it doesn't have a dependency on a catalog. It also has good support for reading and writing from it without needing Spark.
Does anyone know if Iceberg has plans to support similar use cases?
pammf
Iceberg has the hdfs catalog, which also relies only on dirs and files.
That said, a catalog (which Delta also can have) helps a lot to keep things tidy. For example, I can write a dataset with Spark, transform it with dbt and a query engine (such as Trino) and consume the resulting dataset with any client that supports Iceberg. If I use a catalog, all happens without having to register the dataset location in each of these components.
mritchie712
Why don't you want a catalog? The SQL or REST catalogs are pretty light to set up. I have my eye on lakekeeper[0], but Polaris (from Snowflake) is a good option too.
PyIceberg is likely the easiest way to write without Spark.
datancoffee
We did an evaluation of various REST catalog options and went with Open Catalog from Snowflake (a Polaris-based managed service that works independently from their data warehousing solution). Lakekeeper is nice - it's one of the few catalogs with FGAC and table maintenance.
https://tower.dev/blog/picking-snowflake-open-catalog-as-a-m...
anktor
PyIceberg is nice but we had to drop it because it's behind Java API and it's unclear when it will match up, so depending on which features are needed I'd look it up
mritchie712
what are you using instead?
apwell23
I am stockholder in snowflake and iceberg's ascendance seems to coincide with snow's downfall.
Is the query engine value add justify snowflake's valuation. Their data marketplace thing didn't seem to have actually worked.
jaakl
I’m doing datalake modernization for medium-large enterprise and spent last months in sales calls of MS Fabric vs Snowflake vs Databricks. All fun, but now with the managed Iceberg in AWS (S3 tables) I tend to consider to choose none of them: just plain Iceberg is good enough. Of course someone needs to write and read it; but there are so many good free options already, even build does not feel scary. So I would go to the short side in Snowflake in medium-long term (looking their current value prop at least). Databricks has maybe more future as it has ML/AI-first approach. In short term we might still start with SF (with its Iceberg features), as the alternative future stack needs to mature and establish a bit.
mkl95
Iceberg on S3 tables is going to be a hot topic in the next few years.
npalli
Are there robust non-JVM based implementations for Iceberg currently? Sorry to say, but recommending JVM ecosystems around large data just feels like professional malpractice at this point. Whether deployment complexity, resource overhead, tool sprawl or operational complexity the ecosystem seems to attract people who solve only 50% of the problem and have another tool to solve the rest, which in turn only solves 50% etc.. ad infinitum. The popularity of solutions like Snowflake, Clickhouse, or DuckDB is not an accident and is the direction everything should go. I hear Snowflake will adopt this in the future, that is good news.
juunpp
> who solve only 50% of the problem and have another tool to solve the rest, which in turn only solves 50% etc.. ad infinitum
This actually converges to 1:
1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + ... = 1
You just need 30kloc of maven in your pom before you get there.
If you're looking to give Iceberg a spin, here's how to get it running locally, on AWS[0] and on GCP[1]. The posts use DuckDB as the query engine, but you could swap in Trino (or even chdb / clickhouse).
0 - https://www.definite.app/blog/cloud-iceberg-duckdb-aws
1 - https://www.definite.app/blog/cloud-iceberg-duckdb