Interview with Jeff Atwood, Co-Founder of Stack Overflow

Are you accounting for things like free healthcare when comparing wages? (I wish I did't have to say this, but it's a genuine question, not snark). I always wonder when people compare other countries to the US.

Edit: I agree that Brexit was the most incredible piece of self-harm that I've seen a country do to itself. I certainly don't have rose-tinted spectacles about the state of the UK.

Yeah both the UK and US are notorious for NIMBYism. People filing lawsuits as like a hobby, because they want to stop all development. In these countries it's far to easy for a small group of complainers to grind the entire system to a halt and burn endless amounts of time and money. It seems particularly bad in the anglosphere.

Yes. Trump is looking like Brexit on steroids to me.

My thoughts are similar, but I think the cost of commercial space is also driving costs up for everyone, so I classify it as "rent." I'd love to see data, but small businesses (at least in certain sectors) seem bare able to survive--opening and closing constantly.

But, to get to a root cause, I think we have to keep asking why. Why are rents high? One reason is that cities seem unwilling to rezone. Okay, why is city council/the mayor unwilling to rezone (sometimes vast swaths of single family homes?) Voters? Corruption? Something else?

There are several root causes we can potentially drill further down to, but making headway will likely require hard work and involvement in our communities. You could always try running for something and becoming a politician.

Housing costs are both created by NIMBY and The Rich gobbling assets both Residential _AND_ Commercials.

Here's the thing: if housing cost goes up but wage goes up as well (wage is controlled by the Rich), then things will be fine.

But things aren't fine because Wage gets depressed, everywhere.

Totally agree about housing costs. After 10 years of paying high rent in the UK I've returned to Dublin.

Currently paying €1,300 per month for a tiny studio. (I'm told I'm lucky) So hard to build up savings.

The average price for a home in Dublin is now €600,000 according to our central statistics office. Unbelievable.

(The average annual salary in Ireland is €50,000)

On the software side - I'm not sure I'd recommend CS as such, but I know plenty of software engineers that have some alternative kind of technical background and enough CS classes or self-taught knowledge that they were able to be successful. Like physics, electrical engineering. Disciplines like Aerospace eng or Biomedical eng have great systems engineering backgrounds and often CS coverage too.

I'd make a recommendation to hedge one's bets even if they wanted to go into software to see if they wanted thought an adjacent field with transferable skills would be a good fit and offer multiple opportunity paths.

> I think the root of many problems is housing costs

for us, family of 4, it's 1) housing, 2) healthcare (unless you're lucky enough to have a really good employer-sponsored plan that covers dependents or allows them to buy in at employee-negotiated rates, which I don't), 3) education (college for the kids, and the high cost of anything besides public school, I don't mean private schools but even just summer camps etc.)

I look to the future and have a lot of anxiety about how my kids are going to make it

I know so many people 20 years ago who "I'll sell my CA house and retire elsewhere" was a majority of their plan.

As of now, I can only count a very few who actually did it, turns out it's hard to leave where you've lived your entire working life to move somewhere you've never been, and the price differential isn't as amazing as it once was (since Covid flattened that out somewhat).

The ones who did end up doing it ended up following their children (who were priced out of where they grew up).

Normally you'd expect measured, predictable, steady inflation to be the method to "defuse the bomb" but so far that hasn't been really tried (if houses keep going up 1-2% a year, but inflation is 5%, you have a 3% drop in value each year even though on paper, you have an increase).

Technically multiple bombs explode here and there. Here's how:

* Family bought 1 house (assets), big mortgage (cause it's expensive), live until retirement

* Parents sell the house (lost the assets) to either a wealthier family or investors to downgrade

* Parents potentially share the proceeding to the kids to support their Housing endeavor but Kids will be forced to buy something smaller (usually Condos) because detached is expensive and kids wage just starting from the bottom of the paygrade.

Long-term, middle class will erode.

The current global realpolitiks shows that unless you have a very heavy industry that you can invest in, to replace the cratering housing prices, no country is willing to blow it up on purpose. China is trying to strategically do it, but they still have so many more people that they can lift up, move around and put to work into different industries. It's just not really the case for developed countries. I'm assuming India will take the same course in the near future, but their challenges are a bit different.

Also, when supermajority+ have the same problem, it's in the interest of the government to do anything possible to delay the problem for the future generations. That's why I have reservations about US, Canada, UK, Australia and others doing the same thing. It also doesn't help when your entire population growth is depended on immigration, as you can, theoretically, keep the demand higher without many complaints, while limiting the supply.

There's also the Japan problem, but it's weird. In Tokyo we're seeing rental prices actually going up, as it's the only region where the population is growing for all the wrong reasons.

Oh well, good luck to us.

> "housing is an investment" policies have been propped up by lending. What an insane idea.

Lending money for housing is not insane. Houses are durable goods where most of the cost needs to be paid up front. The builder of the house is paying for a structure that will house people for 50+ years. This duration mismatch is exactly what lending is supposed to help with.

Lending is not the problem. People were complaining it was when interest rates were at 0%. Now they are at 7%, but housing prices are still high.

Lack of supply is the problem.

> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college and should be making way more than me in three years.

What bubble do you live in?

"US Tech Layoffs Continue In 2025 With Big Tech Scaling Worker Counts And Fintech, E-Commerce Sectors Reporting Total Shutdowns" - https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs/

"Computer science grads say the job market is rough. Some are opting for a ‘panic’ master’s degree instead." - https://www.businessinsider.nl/computer-science-grads-say-th...

https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1fylku5/are_most_...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/15/why-is-it-...

Yes, but how is that 15 year old going to do the same? What about the ones who don't end up winning the career lottery?

We need this to be possible for two people making 40k a year, not 140.

> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college

Maybe, if new grad is defined as:

- A remarkable programmer on their own time. i.e. Impressive Github profile, side projects, leetcode expert, etc. Just going through Comp Sci isn't going to get you hired at BigTech today.

- Someone with a fantastic network. Better hope you've got friends in high places or family with connections.

Yes, why don’t you “just” get a job at BigTech?

The chances of that are approximately 0%, despite being a much better than average developer/IT person.

I am in a similar boat. Many of us in similar boats would be very thankful if you can expand on what are the names of these consulting companies and how can we breakthrough?

“People who get to work in the highly coveted, rather small, highest revenue-per-employee sector in human history should be just fine!”

Uhh yeah…

As an immigrant, I define the "American Dream" as "opportunity regardless of social class". I think Atwood also hints at this in his blog post (as this is the reason he called out his upbringing and family).

This is in contrast to the system of nobility and "old money" in Europe and why many immigrants sought to find their way to the New World.

The idea of public education started in the US and for a long time has been one of the key public services that enabled this social mobility. In the US, historically, there were opportunities even for immigrants to become self-made men and women and their children would be better off than they were. Immigrants might arrive in the US illiterate, but their children would at least have the opportunity to be educated and find better paths.

It's still possible, but it feels as if the cards are stacked higher and higher towards those that are already coming from some wealth. I increasingly feel like the chances that my kids are going to be better off than me are decreasing every year because the stepping stones to success are becoming eroded.

Just fifty years ago you could buy a home by swinging a hammer for a few years. No degree needed. So it was a thing.

When you made it you would pay taxes, giving back to others. Not selfish.

America has a long history of promoting “rugged individualism.” Community is hardly ever part of the conversation, unfortunately.

Pretty much yes!

    > Get involved with local politics. Join community planning boards, go to city council meetings, and voice support for relaxing rules around zoning.

But even besides that, I feel that defeats the spirit of the American Dream. What good is making just my community better when the kids one town over are falling behind because they don't have the property tax base to fund better programs and wealthy parents that can pay for better early childcare, private tutoring, and more resources? I already live in a fairly well-off enclave; my concern is for the rest of my fellow Americans who are not so fortunate -- the same concern as Atwood; we've "made it", but we want a society that leaves behind stepping stones for others to make their way up.

So I am compliant when it comes to paying taxes and do not shun paying my fair share because in my view, taxes and government -- you know, of the people, by the people, for the people -- are supposed to be used to make all of America better and not just better for some Americans. But we've seen decades of policy bifurcating on this point. You may point out that spending on social programs have increased. Yes, but so has rent-taking on that spend and siphoning and accumulation of those funds in a few coffers.

I've been doing that for 8 years, and organized into local groups with others (the lone voice has little impact, but a contingent of people that politicians think will vote a certain way and tell their friends to vote a certain way have a much bigger impact). However, it's not been very successful, because there's an even larger contingent of people with more wealth, more time, and more experience. The tide is turning, but it's slow.

Minnesota is an example where it worked really well, and I wish that the people in my California town were as big-hearted and progressive as those in Minneapolis. Maybe we'll get there here some day.

In the meantime, state-level efforts are overriding the local NIMBYs far more effectively than the local efforts. It turns out that nearly every single local politician wants to override the NIMBYs, but can't due to the way that local elections work (small number of highly motivated folks usually determine the outcome). However, when elected to the state level, there's a broader electoral base and the politicians can finally start to force housing into cities.

I still recommend getting involved locally, whether or not it has a big effect. It is rewarding in its own way, and has lots of benefits in areas other than housing too.

I’m at a private company and the process of resume screening done by clueless HR people is the exact same. I referred a friend for a job position, he got turned away because he didn’t have Java Version X with Springboot on his resume, I told him to re-submit with that on there and voila he got an interview. (For reference, he was a Java backend dev for 10 years and already had that on his resume)

Same exact thing (or worse) happens in private orgs. But we don't even have access to it.

I mean, we don't have to go far to see this. Nepotism is illegal in many countries for public institutions, and rampant on private ones.

This narrative that private corporations are better "just because" is so silly. We simply see the inefficiencies of the government and can't see the same ones on private entities. Especially the big ones.

I've never worked at a company that didn't have many absurd processes, incompetent people, useless bureaucracy and so on.

I don't think you understand how bad it is in literally any large organization ever.

This happens in private corporations, too. Most of us have gotten clearly bullshit resumes forwarded by HR.

This is downvoted, but its true.

Actual change will not come easily and it is opposed mightily by the ruling class

I can't immediately think of a major US naval deployment in the North Sea outside the big NATO exercises every 1-2 years. Were you thinking of a specific shipping lane?

It is very difficult to compare or extrapolate US with Scandinavian countries. US is socially super-heterogeneus, huge, and big population while Scandinavian countries are socially homogeneus, small size and population. And this is just the beginning.

I though America spends its taxation on destabilizing Middle East and flooding Europe and Scandinavia with migrants.

If Europe tried to do what America does for Europe it should dump military equipment onto various central and South American countries so they can fight among themselves and create droves of refugees traveling North.

This is a common misunderstanding. The US doesn’t send its military around the world because they want to protect freedom and democracy. The US does this to protect open markets that it then gets first right to exploit.

The US has benefited from this situation since WW2. It’s one reason why the US economy has been so successful.

It’s also only now that the US has exploited these markets that they can question the purpose to continue their military imperialism.

TLDR: the US military across the globe wasn’t done out of altruism. It was to expand US economic power.

This is just wrong, on many levels. If you look where tax revenues go, it's mostly defense (military industrial complex) and middle-class entitlements.

I was raised in a low tax American state, and now live in a high tax one. The quality of life is so vastly better here that I could never go back.

Turns out those taxes actually build nice places to live.

Although there is probably support for immigrants besides welfare, I believe that welfare itself is reserved for citizens.

And this is not a statement for or against immigration, but in response to what some people have said (not PKop, to whom I am replying): non-citizen immigrants do pay at least some taxes, in the form of sales tax. And, depending on how they are paid (cash or paycheck) they will also be paying taxes on their own pay. If they are getting cash it is easier to avoid taxes. It is harder if they're receiving a salary.

It's a non-starter to talk about having government do something that uses taxes like stopping people from moving past the line in the dirt.

There is a poll about this that was recently released: https://www.imeupolicyproject.org/postelection-polling

Here's a quote from the poll:

   When Biden 2020 voters cast a ballot for someone besides Harris in 2024 were asked “Which one of the following issues was MOST important in deciding your vote?” they selected:
   
   29% - Ending Israel’s violence in Gaza
   24% - The economy
   12% - Medicare and Social Security
   11% - Immigration and border security
   10% - Healthcare
   9% - Abortion policy
   5% - Don’t know

It has been submitted five times [1] already, so that's covered. :)

[1]: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=fa...

What do you mean "suggest"? To whom? You should do it yourself if you think it's a good idea.

> "The American Dream meant you were assured some level of survival in exchange for work."

I've never thought that was a common interpretation of the American Dream.

Come on, haven't you heard that Trump has declared the start of a new American Golden Age? You gotta have some faith!

No seriously, this reminds me of another "Golden Age" which according to the propaganda happened under Ceausescu in Romania when I was growing up (https://princetonbuffer.princeton.edu/2014/01/30/tales-from-...), while in reality everything was falling to pieces. I just hope Trump's age won't last as long as Ceausescu's (24 years).

OP was refering to SO being on a massive decline since then.

chegg was destroyed

In aggregate, Stack Overflow probably saved developers far more time than anyone ever put in, and saved companies all over the world far more money than the founders made in their exit.

Your argument has nothing do to with the point I was trying to make.

I sometimes feel this way even about Google maps. On some level when I make a small contribution I'm aware that everyone doing so profits Google quite nicely.

But then again, I think that I've profited quite a bit from having Google maps as a resource, far more than the contribution I've made.

It feels much better to look at the fact that it's a place that people help share information useful to each other, which happens to profit a large company, than to only focus jealously on the fact that said large company has hit upon a way to monetize the sharing of this information.

Both things are true, and whether you think it's great or horrid really is a matter of perspective.

> You might find this hard to believe, but I find that helping other people is genuinely rewarding all by itself. And it’s rewarding in a way that money can’t buy.

So Jeff took that money instead.

As I said above, your argument has nothing do to with the point I was trying to make. You call it cynical I call it 1.8 Billion.

I don't think anyone deserves 1.8bln reward. Norman Borlaug perhaps. But good for Jeff. I think SO was immensly societally and economically valuable and most people who actually got 1.8bln are less deserving than Jeff is.

I would say Jon Skeet busted his ass off :-)

https://stackoverflow.com/users/22656/jon-skeet

I remember reading his rants about just how bad the current situation was (which was a terrible website called "developers exchange" or public phpBB internet forums). Never underestimate the passion derived from sheer hatred of the status quo.

Also his backup strategies around 2008 were quite interesting.

It's no different from creating an open source project, profiting from the free work of thousandths and then cash in a la JBoss or Redis.

If he wanted to give back he could have started with John Skeet.

i feel like a lot of people have forgotten that that was its initial impetus, literally "let's get together and collectively build a better expertsexchange without the dark patterns trying to monetize your need for answers"

The reputation was fun, but I saw it as a proxy for how much I’d helped people. That always felt good.

It also doesn’t answer your question as if you asked a different one. So many stackoverflow conversations:

Q: I am looking for a way to do X in language Y.

A: You shouldn’t need to do that. What do you really want to do?

Argh. What I really want to do is exactly what I asked. If you don’t know, fine, but don’t try to steer me towards a question you do know the answer to. Just let someone else answer. Not everything is an XY problem[1].

1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem

One one annoying thing about using LLMs to answer technical questions is when you provide context like “I have tried X, Y already, and Z won’t work because…” it does what LLMs do— uses all the words in the prompt to string together more words into an answer. It would make LLMs so much more intuitive to use for technical questions if this problem could be solved… sounds so obvious that maybe it does exist?

True, but that also sums up one of the junior dev problems often talked about on HN - those who use SO to get a direct answer that they can copy-and-paste, instead of an actual explanation to help them learn (and save them having to look it up next time).

I think he had a bit of a thing about t-shirts. I got a free SO one for something like being a top-100 poster (can't remember exactly what) and I was quite proud of it. Those were quite fun days, unlike the sad mess SO is now.

Oh, it wasn't ExpertSexChange?

True enough. I guess it's probably not beyond saving, either. It does have a pretty good core idea.

meh. you're probably right. I edited and distilled it down to the main point. I just wish it were a nonprofit at the end of the day, I guess. It would've been the right thing to do. That he chose not to makes me sad. That he was rewarded richly for it, sadder.