I have made the decision to disband Hindenburg Research
84 comments
·January 15, 2025gmd63
lvl155
This is a common thing among investment professionals especially in areas where you need a strong domain knowledge such as biotech. Your conviction can become stronger the more you learn and collect supporting data. Conviction is a dangerous thing. This also extends to what’s broadly happening today in increasingly data-rich environment because we make data-dependent decisions.
jfengel
The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. The market will tolerate infinite BS for arbitrary periods of time.
Which also means being careful of short selling. It can put you at unlimited risk even if you are absolutely right.
null
mschuster91
> Many self-important people online are quick to pounce on short sellers as being evil, and that will forever be a serious red flag to me thanks in no small part to Nate Anderson and the folks at Hindenburg Research.
Credible arguments can be made however that short-selling itself, especially naked short selling, is an unethical thing to do as the pure possibility of short-selling makes some forms of crime possible in the first place, such as a criminal shooting up the road bus of a German soccer team to profit from falling stock prices [1]. Especially in the era of anything being credibly fake-able with widely available AI tools, short-selling can look to criminals as a very profitable way to make money.
Also, short-selling incentivizes large stock holders to be lazy and not do their jobs. Imagine a huge ass pension fund - they can (and do) make money as the counterparty in short-selling deals. Some see this as a necessary part of stocktrading life (because it provides liquidity), but personally I think that it removes incentives for the pension fund managers to do their job and audit the stock they hold for their shareholders in turn themselves.
Besides: enforcing securities code and auditing companies should not be the job of vigilantes. I applaud the efforts of ethical short sellers, but in an ideal world, that job would be done by the authorities.
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschlag_auf_den_Mannschaftsbu...
sgerenser
I’ll always remember them for exposing the Nikola motors fraud: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24436721
Jimmc414
"just feeling like it" seems insufficient explanation for dismantling a successful organization rather than transitioning it
they just completed their "pipeline of ideas" with "the last Ponzi cases" - seems like a surprisingly clean and abrupt end for an investigative organization
the team members are "brilliant" and "family to me" but heis disbanding rather than transitioning leadership
He mentions some team members are starting their own research firm but he "will have no personal involvement" That emphasis seems noteworthy
Claims there's "no particular threat" but takes pains to emphasize this multiple times
instead of maintaining the organization and training successors directly, he's planning to release videos and materials about their methods
No mention of the firm's financial position or client relationships
Not buying it, there's a story but it doesnt seem like he wants to tell it
Craighead
[dead]
bihla
Did he... link the wrong URL at the end of the post? I thought for sure it was going to be some sort of heartfelt speech, or motivational message, or something. But it's an instrumental DJ set which seems totally out of left field
dgfitz
> P.S. If you are chasing something you think you want or need, or are doubting whether you are enough, take a minute and give this a listen. It had a big impact on me at a pivotal time.
He shared something that helped him at a pivotal time. Your expectations are your own. :)
SapporoChris
The right music at the right time can be transformative.
netsharc
And the highlighted comment on that video (because it's got a lot of upvotes) is "Who's here because of Hindenburg?"...
I suppose all the research work, that comment, and the 750+ thumbs-ups, and my cynical meta-comment all brought value to the world. But I'm only sure of one of those things.
Cyph0n
I actually skimmed through looking for when the inspirational talk starts.
Over2Chars
I had the same idea. Maybe it's a subtle message?
Everyday, at the same time, in the same place, play that instrumental DJ set and with a blank document write down whatever comes to you.
Let me know what you find.
Jagerbizzle
I was pretty amazed to see him link this particular Lee Burridge set from Bali. I’ve watched/listened to it many times over and it never fails to put me in a happier state of mind.
indrora
I was fully expecting [1] but then I just listened for a while and honestly, I get it.
I can't explain, but yeah.
NelsonMinar
the psychedelics are implied
defrost
For myself at least that was a wild behind the curtain reveal; for a group that's had such a profound impact exposing some of the better kept secrets of some of the worst people and companies, Nate presents himself and his associates as surprisingly ordinary day to day types armed with grit and determination.
troad
In my experience, people tend to grossly overestimate the scale of publicly known organisations; the more publicly known, the vaster and more faceless people imagine it to be.
Over2Chars
They are short sellers, were you expecting roided out pro-wrestlers with tats and wild hair or something?
defrost
Absolutely, it's well known that Jane Street and other major traders draw heavily on the former WWW stable for their short staffing.
steve_avery
Wow, this made me really emotional. And even though I definitely did not expect a chill Bali DJ set as the motivational link, it also resonated with me in some way.
I can't think of a more honorable way to move through life. I liken the act of closing shop at this point for Hindenburg to the legend I know of Cincinnatus, the Roman emperor who did the job of emperoring and went back to his fields when it was done.
It also moves me how the team is described, as being from whatever background, but all moved by the same fire. I wish that I could be a part of something like that. What the hell am I doing with my life?
paxys
Getting out while they are ahead is a smart move, especially considering multiple governments have started to take a closer look at their shorting tactics.
arrowsmith
Can someone give me the context please? I’ve never heard of this organisation before. What do they do and what are they known for?
CyberDildonics
Their "shorting tactics" ? You mean doing extensive well sourced research that convinces other people that their position is correct?
aprilthird2021
I'm assuming when he says "governments taking a look at" he means like the Indian government and it's more of a Mafia-type "taking a look at" than a serious inquiry with any actual merit. A strongarm type thing
Over2Chars
I think its brought attention to numerous cases of accounting and other shenanigans.
What I've noticed, casually, is that they often target companies or management with a pattern of fraud and abuse, and surprise they keep doing it.
VP of Sales gets slapped on the wrist for illegal tactics?
A few years later he goes on to be promoted to CEO and.... does the same thing!
Amazing.
rajup
Pretty big allegations without any source.
Over2Chars
Stone cold assassins indeed. We need more people like him.
kjsingh
What no one touches is that he used to unmask the devil and also let the regular folks (if they trust him) take short positions just like he did. Sort of Robin Hood with weak reference.
mlsu
I mean that's the whole business of a short seller.
Take a big short position, then spread the bad news. Hopefully, it's true: the stock drops, and you make a mint. If you fail to spread the news, or you don't get the facts right, the stock goes up and you lose.
fallingknife
That's not how that works. They take out short positions and then release the info to profit off the drop when they announce. Announcing publically is how they make their profit, not them letting you in on it. Informational advantage is their entire strategy.
tomcam
Apropos user name ;)
solarkraft
Hindenburg Research shorts going strong!
ilamont
Has anyone else publicly copied the Hindenburg investigation/financial model? It's not proprietary AFAIK.
steveBK123
It's a hard business to make money in. Shorting tends to be intrinsically harder because the market goes up over time and Americans are generally optimists. Plus the last 2 years we've seen 20+% market moves upwards.
Despite it being a necessity for functioning markets, when you are short, seemingly everyone is against you - business management, regulators, media, etc.
Not surprised to see them bow out. Chanos did so last year.
This is one of the reasons frauds go on so much longer than you'd expect - no one wants to hear the truth.
tart-lemonade
People have this idea that short sellers are market manipulators who conspire to wipe out innocent day traders' life savings and trigger mass layoffs with the stroke of a pen (hence the term "financial terrorism," which is absolutely comical in its hyperbole but used with complete sincerity by the anti-short crowd), but like tines said, it's a risky business that requires lots of research that frequently goes nowhere with limited upside and uncapped potential losses. The amount of times they and other short sellers publish damning evidence on a company only for the stock to shoot back as soon as the company releases a "nothing to see here" non-response really shows the difficulty in making money in the space (and how much people want to bury their heads in the sand).
Given the regulatory environment we are heading into, I expect short selling will become an even riskier business since the SEC isn't going to be prosecuting fraud anymore (or rather, they'll be doing even less than they are now), making it much easier to sic the lawyers on firms like Hindenburg. Even though this isn't their stated reason for bowing out, I wouldn't be surprised or hold it against them if it was a factor.
Over2Chars
I think the prospect of an impending SEC or other investigation is only one factor in stocks losing value.
They highlight inflated sales and financial irregularities like a chain of companies that engage in self-dealing, but are portrayed as independent to hide their real ownership, and so on.
If you believe what they say, your faith in the company is shaken because they're pulling a con job on you to invest in them and believe their story. If the SEC investigates that just supports the claim that it's a con.
If they don't investigate - for whatever reason - it doesn't mean that it's not a con and you won't lose all of your money believing it.
So a change in the regulatory environment is only one element.
For example, the Modhi/Adani thing is outside the reach of the SEC. And after watching a piece on it, apparently shorting it was amazingly tricky, and they had to go through some Singaporean markets to arrange a short position.
jonstewart
SEC Commissioners turn over slowly. It is not quite as independent as Fed, but more independent than most agencies.
cushychicken
I’d wager a big part of how they make money is as SEC whistleblowers. It’s not as huge of money as shorting is - but it’s typically a single digit percentage of the recovered fines. Considering these guys nailed a company that defrauded people of $3 BILLION dollars, they’d net $30 mil from turning that company in even if the payout is only 1%.
The SEC has a policy of paying out part of recovered fines as bounties to whistleblowers to align incentives. If your company is doing something sketchy, you get a payout by doing the right thing.
I’m not a lawyer but I think that mechanism works just as well if you’re an external reporter of fraud. SEC makes money and pays you for your diligent forensic auditing.
hn_throwaway_99
Do you have any evidence/links that discuss this? I'd be surprised that they'd get any whistleblower fees, because they themselves aren't actually the whistleblower. E.g. a whistleblower usually refers to actual insiders with private knowledge that then "blow the whistle". In Hindenburg's case, they basically just did research anyone is capable of doing (although in many cases, after they became known, they did have whistleblowers reach out to them).
yieldcrv
Its 10% to 30%
where did you get 1% from, its a really good bounty system to clean up the markets and you get to be anonymous if you use a lawyer, the trick is to get the SEC to prioritize it. They are now inundated after some large payouts made the news in financial circles
gimmeThaBeet
Matt Levine always has the good stuff, but he had commentary on a profile of Jim Chanos (the lesson not necessarily being specific to Chanos) that always sticks with me. The profile that discussed the idea that the real sort of 'secret sauce' was that the combination of Chanos' main funds were like 190% long, and then 90% the short stuff he wan known for.
On its surface, nothing crazy for long/short funds, the notable part was that basically all the effort was on the short side, and the long side was implied to be very humdrum. And the short book had like negative returns over a long period. It just struck me as a really elegant (if extreme) example of what uncorrelated returns can do if you do somehow have some edge over time.
And I'm not sure what Hindenburg's holistic picture is, but whether rightly or wrongly now I usually assume most of the kind of very public shorts operate similarly. I was never really on board with the "short sellers are evil" train of thought, but I did believe, "oh these very public short sellers only short things, they just go around all the time thinking everything is awful". And my assumption now is that they are like, kind of really theatric long/short funds.
Matt had some line like if you extremely good at something, you can get rich doing it, even if it loses money. As long as it's not correlated.
tines
> Shorting tends to be intrinsically harder because the market goes up over time and Americans are generally optimists
Also, with shorting the best you can do is double your money (if the stock goes to 0), while you can lose an unlimited amount (as there’s no cap on a rising stock); whereas with going long, you can only lose all your money (again, if it goes to 0), but you can gain an unlimited amount.
dktp
This is incorrect. The way shorting works is you borrow a stock (and keep paying premium for the duration) and sell it
Premiums are usually small, so you can make many multiples of paid premium
And since their business model is releasing the findings, which in turn makes the stock drop, they can time their short position very well and don't need to pay premiums for long
ryandamm
Except for leverage... but the general point remains that the upside is capped and the downside in theory is not.
handfuloflight
See put options.
1024core
> Shorting tends to be intrinsically harder because the market goes up over time and Americans are generally optimists.
... and the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.
I remember once I tried shorting a stock, of a market leader in my area. I knew the field well enough to see that they were trying to fudge some numbers and their quarter was _not_ as good as they had claimed it to be.
But sadly the market didn't see this and the stock went up. E*Trade started pushing me to cover my positions, and eventually I ended up losing a 5-figure sum (nothing earth-shattering, but still a good chunk of my cash).
After I had bought it all back, slowly the market realized what I had seen and the stock dropped as I had expected. Unfortunately I did not have the deep pockets to stick around long enough; all I was left with was a hole in the wallet and a hard lesson learned.
JamesLeonis
They are planning to release their methodology. Buried in the article:
> Beyond my own desire for relief, it also feels selfish to keep the knowledge we’ve accumulated trapped within our small team. I have more than enough. In the past several years we’ve been flooded with thousands of messages from many of you asking how we do what we do, or whether you can join the team. I read them all and I’ve been trying to figure out how to respond in a way that can answer everyone—so over the next 6 months or so I plan to work on a series of materials and videos to open-source every aspect of our model and how we conduct our investigations.
paxys
What they do isn't anything new or revolutionary. Short sellers have existed ever since public markets have existed. See Muddy Waters Research, Citron Research, Kynikos Associates, Pershing Square (famous for their crusade against Herbalife), Gotham Research, all of the Big Short folks. And these are just the active ones.
Over2Chars
Aside from the obvious risk of short selling is the tornado of lawsuits and threats that arise from targeting shady companies.
Just because some company is accused shenanigans or breaking the law doesn't mean they won't try to litigate you out of existence.
Or that they don't have associates with baseball bats who might visit you in the night to discuss your "bad choices".
It takes some real minerals.
ipsum2
There's quite a lot of short sellers that publish their research.
anotheruser13
Take a look at Scorpion Capital.
ProjectArcturis
I believe Andrew Left and Citron Research were the first.
ricksunny
From their About page
"...Hindenburg Research specializes in forensic financial research.
...we believe the most impactful research results from uncovering hard-to-find information from atypical sources. In particular we often look for situations where companies may have any combination of: ... • Undisclosed related-party transactions..."
I would love to see whether Bayesian inference can be applied to quantitatively establish when "there's a there there' in any given situation. When is the unlikelihood of a coincidence transcend beyond the level of background noise?
I've ironically lost more money the more closely I've paid attention to my investments because I was naively confident in the market's ability (or as I've come to suspect, willingness) to react to evidence of fraud.
The amount of deceit put out into the world and gobbled up, on purpose, in business is obscene and seriously depressing. The magnitude of damage to psyches and thus economies that anyone acting in a fraudulent manner in finance creates is far-reaching and immeasurable. Punishment for financial crimes should be calculated based on the average lifetime earnings of a citizen -- if your victims are folks earning at or below the average wage, and you've scammed 100 lifetimes worth of average earnings, it's as if you've murdered 100 people.
Hindenburg's reports were a true pleasure to read, and their track record proves their positive contribution to society. Many self-important people online are quick to pounce on short sellers as being evil, and that will forever be a serious red flag to me thanks in no small part to Nate Anderson and the folks at Hindenburg Research.