Stay Gold, America
105 comments
·January 9, 2025baggachipz
dennis_jeeves2
>there are good people of means out there trying to make humanity better.
They are certainly good, but naive(In some sense I'm happy that they are naive).
The quality of our lives settles down to the lowest common denominator. Good, smart people do make a difference but generally these are blips of good times compared to vast stretches of bad times.
Simon_O_Rourke
> It's so so hard not to be cynical.
Certainly would agree with that, however you'll have plenty who would suggest that helping others achieve the American dream isn't part of their worldview, or indeed their interpretation of that American dream.
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FrustratedMonky
"Apes together strong"
Even Koba learned to hate.
And, despite the last movie ending on uplifting note, the very end showed the humans in a bunker ready to attack again.
Nothing survives the fight for resources. In-Group/Out-Group.
It will take some real tragedy to bring Left/Right back together. Like a real (more severe) virus where Republicans are like "wow, we be dying, I'm all for distancing now, get away from me, where are the scientists, give me a mask".
p3rls
It's funny in these political unity fantasies it's only the right making compromises even after their landslide victory
FrustratedMonky
You can have a mass population be wrong. A 'small' margin victory doesn't mean they are correct about everything, like laws of physics can change because the population is delusional.
Covid was just harmless enough to allow them to perpetuate their delusions. But a more severe virus, where they can actually see people dying next to them, it couldn't be ignored, would wake them up.
cindycindy
[flagged]
throw0101c
> Millions have died from their addiction, which is to say there are plenty of people who would choose death over change.
There are people who would rather be ill and die themselves rather than let the "wrong people" get something that they "don't deserve":
HPsquared
I always think what's the actual benefit now of living in a "rich country" if everything is just more expensive? So if you live in the USA you'll maybe have a nicer car and nicer computer than someone in Poland, but otherwise it's all a wash and probably nicer in Poland. All the things that actually matter to quality of life are pretty much the same or even nicer in a poorer country?
sam_lowry_
Poland is a wrong example, it had almost 30 years on uninterrupted growth and has better infrastructure and services than the nearby Germany.
Trains are cheaper, better run and more comfortable. Highways are better than German. Even gas stations. I often find myself waiting to cross the border so I can get to the loo in the first Orlen on the Polish side.
And don't let me start on housing and taxes.
Polish economy even benefitted from the Russo-Ukrainian war:
1. 36 mln-strong Poland welcomed 1mln of mostly well-educated, hardworking Ukrainians.
2. Its military expenses are now double what the US spends in relative terms, giving a non-negligible boost to civil economy.
Gosh, it's been a few years I dress exclusively in Helikon-Tex, instead of Patagonia )
ksec
>Gosh, it's been a few years I dress exclusively in Helikon-Tex, instead of Patagonia )
Ok this may have been the best sales pitch for Helikon-Tex :)
throw0101c
> Poland is a wrong example, it had almost 30 years on uninterrupted growth and has better infrastructure and services than the nearby Germany.
Not wrong, but I think that when you're growing and building things tend to be "easy(-ier)" than later on when you're maintaining. When you don't have anything it's easy to say "We need X.", but it's harder to justify to folks "We need to maintain X."—there's not as much ribbon cutting for maintenance projects:
If there's no highway bridge over some chasm, building the bridge can be obvious. When there's a bridge already there spending (tens/hundreds of) millions to rehabilitate or rebuild it will get more pushback.
China had little infrastructure and has built a whole bunch (e.g., high speed rail) over the last few decades: I'll be curious to see how things are in fifty or so years when they have to rebuild things.
User23
Could this have anything to do with the differences in the two country’s migration policies?
sam_lowry_
First off, Poland benefitted immensely from EU funds. Better infrastructure is better in Poland for the same reason it is better in Spain, Spain just had those funds earlier.
As for the migration policies, I think you are pointing in the right direction but the reality is more subtle.
Old European countries consider work to be a privilege, Poles, having lived in the Warsaw Pact country, still perceive work to be an obligation.
A refugee arriving in Germany can't start working and lives off welfare while his case is settled, which may take years.
A similar refugee arriving in Poland has to find a job both to survive and to obtain legal residency.
This has the downside of driving down wages but the upside of creating even more jobs.
Amazon, Lidl, Zalando and many other labor-intensive businesses set shops just across the border for a reason.
portaouflop
It depends what matters to you in quality of life. For me the most important things are having purpose and love in my life - and you can find that pretty much anywhere.
A bit unrelated but US citizens decided that healthcare doesn’t really matter to them much but going everywhere with a nice car does - so it depends what the priorities are
snapcaster
This is such a good point, i've had similar thoughts before. That basically after the "middle income" level countries don't really get "better" they just get more expensive and more developed (which to be sure does have some positive impacts)
jt2190
I’d be very careful with this kind of comparison: Often the differences show up in weird places.
For example, I travel between two countries with similar lifestyles and consistently notice lower quality of goods in the country with the lesser-valued currency. It’s subtle enough that you might not notice: Smaller quantities, not quite as good as, fully assembled versus some assembly, etc. Modern industry has gotten really good at masking these changes, and local consumers just don’t know that it can be better.
rsanek
Poland is perhaps not the best example, by GDP PPP per capita standards they're not much poorer than the US. I would expect life to be comparable.
rmgk
Given that the original article is criticizing the unequal wealth in the USA, a GDP PPP (which is an average) but higher concentration of wealth would imply that most people in the USA are much worse off.
a_imho
Everything is more expensive in the USA is quite an exaggeration. Being able to afford (better) consumer goods/services/experiences is quite nice in itself not to mention the quality of opportunities present. I don't see many people emigrating from rich countries either.
kubb
House prices in Poland can be higher than in the US (for a comparable size and location).
homebrewer
Poland is a rich country compared to most of the rest of the world (my country included). Your reference point is way off.
izietto
Am I the only one who thinks that a country which admits only two parties cannot be called a democracy? Not an attack, just a thought starter
EDIT Thank everyone who answered, I have always been convinced that US doesn't have anymore parties other than Republicans and Democrats. Today I learned!
portaouflop
There are many more parties in the US though - they just don’t get really relevant in the bigger scheme of things.
In my country we also have 2 huge parties and a bunch of smaller ones - but the smaller ones have more impact and actually matter a bit.
Democracy is hard and there are so many details and complexities to consider.
But to answer your question I would say definitely the US is a democracy -
jghn
Also, our 2 huge parties aren't dissimilar to the coalitions of parties you see in other democracies. Over time the boundary lines between our 2 parties shifts as those coalitions are formed, disbanded, reformed, etc.
staticautomatic
Yeah but in those countries the parties actually get to rep themselves in the legislature. You can’t literally masquerade as a member of another party here unless you want people to think you’re a mole or a turncoat.
izietto
> There are many more parties in the US though - they just don’t get really relevant in the bigger scheme of things.
Interesting! Can you please elaborate? I know nothing about this, I always thought they are forbidden somehow to have parties that are different from Conservatives and Democrats, otherwise I can't explain myself why they are never mentioned
boxed
They aren't forbidden. The voting system is set up so that any new party that enters will torpedo its allies. It's a winner-takes-all and first-past-the-post system, so if a new left party enters and takes 5% of the votes, the democrats will now lose everything. House. Senate. President. All of it.
dagw
I can't explain myself why they are never mentioned
They're never mentioned in the headline news because they don't stand a chance of winning. But they're actually discussed quite a bit every presidential election, not in terms of if they'll win or not, but if they'll 'take' enough votes from one party to have an effect on a close election.
The Democrats sometimes accuse the Green Party of spoiling their chances by competing for the same voters. This presidential election there was a fair bit of talk about RFK Jr and his presidential run, with lots of speculation that he might take enough votes from Trump to cause the Democrats to win. Republicans are still convinced that the only reason Bill Clinton won was that Ross Perot, a third party candidate who got 19% of the votes, split the Republican vote.
ensignavenger
We have two major parties, and several smaller ones- the Libertarian Party and the Green Party are the two largest third parties generally. However, there are also sub factions within the major political parties, so that they in fact makeup a sort of coalition of sub factions, similar to the coalitions of parties you see in other countries. This means that primaries are a super important part of the election cycle in the USA. The Primaries are like the first round of a two round system.
krapp
There are tons of political parties in the US[0].
However the scale of financing for the primary parties, the infrastructure built around those parties and the deeply ingrained cultural norm of the US being a "two party" government means that for all intents and purposes none of those other parties matter.
The two most recent near-exceptions to this that I can think of are the Tea Party, which became a Republican proxy party and Ross Perot's reform party.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_t...
AnimalMuppet
In a US election, you will find candidates from the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. You will also find candidates from the Constitution Party, the Communist Party (really!), the Green Party, and others.
It's just that nobody but the Democrats and Republicans win major races. Others could - it's allowed - but they don't. The "first past the post" system is at least partly responsible for the US settling into two overwhelmingly dominant parties.
jt2190
You need to factor in member’s ability to “cross the aisle” and the power of the party whip. In the U.S. members can vote against their party’s legislation without instantly being thrown out of the party.
kzrdude
Lessig in books and talks explained it very well, why reliance on money - people and corps funding parties and candidates - in elections keep the elections elitist and undemocratic. It needed reform and it still needs reform, more than ever.
I naively hoped that his well laid out arguments would make a difference, but here we are much later and it didn't help a single bit.
kzrdude
See other comment for a link to his talk https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42645492
techdmn
There are many parties, generally referred to as "third parties", but there are also many systems working to ensure that only the two parties everyone knows about have any power. First-past-the-post is a big part of the problem, and both parties campaign against alternatives like instant-runoff and ranked-choice voting. The "Big Two" also control televised debates, and have consistently raised requirements for participation in order to exclude other parties. The big parties, big corporations and the big media are all aligned in this, refusing the discuss third parties except in terms of spoilers. People who might vote for a third party are routinely reprimanded for helping the other big party win.
The other option is to try to change a party through the primary process, but the Democratic party in particular has a process very well insulated against public influence. "Super Delegates" (party insiders) until very recently had open and official votes that could easily override a choice by primary voters. In a lawsuit filed after the Democratic Party fought to ensure Hillary Clinton beat Bernie Sanders, a leading member the Democratic Party argued, in court and under oath, the that party was a private organization and had NO OBLIGATION to use any kind of democratic process to chose its nominee. In this last election they didn't even have a primary.
I live in the U.S., I vote, at best I consider it a very flawed, or perhaps well controlled, democracy. In many cases a majority of voters prefer policy changes that are simply off the table for both major parties. Examples are things like winding down the war on drugs, ensuring abortion access, and raising the minimum wage. Neither party will do anything about these issues at the national level, and any progress being made is at the state level - largely in states that have a ballot initiative process where voters can (in some ways) bypass the usual party-controlled political process.
HDThoreaun
If the parties were static sure, but they ebb and flow with the voters. Trumpism came out of seemingly nowhere now the entire GOP is all aboard, it’s effectively a completely different party compared to 10 Years ago.
dennis_jeeves2
>admits only two parties cannot be called a democracy
'Democracy' itself is a charade to pacify the masses.
m_fayer
> The costs of housing, healthcare, and education
This is the “list of modern miseries,” and needs child care and eldercare on it to be complete. This is the list of those things that, for all our prowess, we’ve broken and just can’t seem to fix. Until we manage, our system will always have the legitimacy problem whose consequences we can see all around us right now.
kubb
How can housing prices drop if most people invest most of their wealth into their house and they expect a return on the investment?
jermaustin1
Housing wasn't an investment until it was turned into an investment in the 80s. Housing was always thought of as housing before that. It is the same as renting, but at some point, you stop paying rent and instead just pay your wealth tax on it's value.
In the US we treat it as not only an investment we expect to appreciate, but then turn around and treat it as a depreciating asset for taxation purposes if you are buying it to rent to people. It is a double standard that lets corporate landlords buy a property, collect rent, write off the mortgage interest, write off the "depreciation" of the property, all the while the property appreciates in value, creating multiple revenue streams (lower tax bill + higher leverage-able assets + rental income). THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!
You should not be allowed to "depreciate" an appreciating asset on your taxes and get to lower your bill. If you want to write off depreciation, it should be appraised at a lower value first. Otherwise its book value remains constant (or adjusts for inflation?), and then just capital gains on the sale if someone wants to pay more than book value. This would make it less attractive to investors, prices would actually fall a bit (or a lot, IDK).
kubb
Yea it shouldn’t but home owners are in the majority so what are you gonna do about it?
Also both of the parties are fully behind the interests of homeowners, with one of them being really obsessed with helping high-wealth individuals not pay taxes.
I wouldn’t expect anything to change.
HDThoreaun
Densifying can allow individual homeowners to gain wealth while housing as a whole becomes cheaper. Single family home values can increase due to the land under them at the same time as condo values go down if we just stop building single family homes and build condos instead.
dfedbeef
Nonprofits aren't going to get the US out of this. They are a bandaid on a broken leg.
thepuppet33r
We're using GoFundMe as a bandaid for healthcare, to the degree that the CEO went to beg Congress to pass more government assistance in COVID-laden 2021.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/538399-gof...
BadCookie
What would fix the problem? And what is the root cause?
kzrdude
Lessig founded "Rootstrikers" to strike at what he thought was a fundamental root of the problem of politics in the US. I don't even know if that organization is active anymore. Their thesis is that special interest money, political corruption, and the reliance on money to even get to be a candidate in elections is a root of the problem.
He did this TED talk long time ago (and several other talks) and it made a big impression on me, but it didn't catch on(?)
https://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_...
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lapcat
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42620278 (2 days ago, 229 comments)
ksec
>34% of adults in America did not exercise their right to vote.
Or basically 34% of adults in America exercise their right not to vote. If we force everyone to vote like Australia, may be there should be an option of voting blank?
Basically I believe not voting for something is also a right. It is a vote to say ( may be ) I dislike both parties.
Out of curiosity I decided to look up historical turn out rate [1], and was supervised to learn 2024 has the second highest rate in history, or at least since 1932. Highest was actually last election.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States...
mondocat
> Or basically 34% of adults in America exercise their right not to vote.
Maybe. Or they were unable to for any number of reasons, like not being able to get the time off work, for example. Compulsory voting does not mean you can't abstain, or shouldn't, but it does eliminate the people who want to vote, but for legal/logistical reasons, were unable to.
mysterydip
Is it me or is it ironic they're talking about wealth concentration then immediately following how they've donated $8 million and plan to donate half their remaining wealth in the next 5 years?
travisjungroth
It’s the opposite of ironic. He’s against the concentration of wealth, so he’s given away much of his wealth and is pledging to continue to do so.
mysterydip
But he wouldn't have a pile to donate if he hadn't been collecting it all this time. The donation part is good and I'm all for it.
travisjungroth
He “collected” it by co-founding Stack Overflow, which sold in 2021. He’s only had this level of wealth a few years.
boxed
I feel like not a single one of these organization actually deal with the problems. They're super good stuff, but not dealing with the issues the article starts out with.
LeonB
Can you suggest an organisation that does?
ChrisArchitect
[dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42620278
JKCalhoun
The wealth inequality is the one I have been paying the most attention to. Having constantly lowered the taxes on the wealthiest it seems to be the one that is the most self-inflicted.
We could lapse into an era much like the Great Depression (where I suppose we will celebrate bank robbers?). Our future could look more like "Soylent Green" - most of us piled into tenement houses with armed guards on the stairs, braving the streets only for our weekly rations while the wealthy live secluded in high-rise luxury.
I worry too we'll become like I perceive Russia to have become — more or less an oligarchy run country where the proletariat merely grumble and get about their thread-bare existence. (I suppose, from the charts, we'll have our toys and TVs though!)
With 1/3 of the country having not even voted I would probably be more surprised if we end up with a French Revolution style future.
Feel free to set me straight, IANAH (not a historian) nor am I an economist or political scientist. Just a layman.
phtrivier
> where I suppose we will celebrate bank robbers?)
The popularity of Luigi Mangione might be a (arguably sickening) sign that the pitchforks are coming (and, remember, it's always very presumptuous to assume you will be on the right side of the pitchforks.)
But also, if history is to be followed, some form of self correction is always possible.
It's going to be popular to run on a "tax the ultra-ultra-rich" platform. The trick is to be very careful on every other topic, to avoid being trapped in culture war. Basically, someone might run on the single issue of "tax the right", and strive to avoid anything radical on every hot-button subject (as in, be extremely centrist and borderline conservative on gender, immigration, culture, free speech, etc....). When in doubt, shut up and remind everyone you're going to tax the ultra-ultra-ultra rich, purely appealing to the inner sense of justice.
This would work better in countries where the press is not too concentrated. And I am actually curious to see how social media would handle that (it would create engagement, so maybe the merely ultra-ultra rich would play along ?)
> French Revolution style future.
Careful what you wish for - it took us a century to get to a stable place.
JKCalhoun
> Careful what you wish for…
Agree. We may be weighing shitty options though at some point.
ryandrake
If I had to pick which fictional world our future looks most like it would be Elysium. Maybe not a space station, but we're quickly bifurcating into a world where a top elite of billionaires live in absolute luxury, safely segregated away from the rest of the world who scrapes by in misery and poverty. There was no middle class in Elysium. So many people who will be in the misery group support this future because somehow they've been convinced they'll be in the elite group.
It's so so hard not to be cynical. I read posts like this and it gives me a glimmer of hope, and reminds me that there are good people of means out there trying to make humanity better. But then I also remember that there are much richer, more powerful ghouls out there whose seemingly sole purpose is to enrich themselves and their cronies at the expense of society.
The answer, of course, is to praise efforts like this one and not allow cynicism to undermine the effort. A groundswell of support begets a movement. "Apes together strong", and all that. Anyway, were I ever to come into significant wealth, I think and hope I would do the same. Until then, I'm simply working towards a decent retirement and intent on remaining in an ever-shrinking middle class.