macOS 15.2 breaks the ability to copy the OS to another drive
337 comments
·December 14, 2024lxgr
a2tech
This is from the SuperDuper backup folks. SuperDuper is a tool that you can use to make bootable backups of your macOS system. Apple took away the ability for 3rd party tools to manipulate the OS and copy it to another partition/drive and took it upon themselves to provide that functionality via a utility. That utility is apparently non-functional in 15.2. So that breaks SuperDuper's ability to make a nice, clean, bootable backup of your Mac.
echelon
> took it upon themselves to provide that functionality via a utility. That utility is apparently non-functional in 15.2.
Apple turning our devices into jail cells.
These tech titans need to be regulated. We should be able to install whatever we want on Mac, iPhone, and Android. To be able to back up whatever we want, install from web, not be forced to use app stores, not be forced to sync with the cloud, and not be forced to use first party software.
lxgr
You are able to do and install what you want on a Mac (although for some things, you’d have to disable SIP), unlike on iOS.
I’m not the biggest fan of the grip Apple has on iOS, but this seems less of a case of platform protectionism, and more one of not wanting to (implicitly) support low-level interfaces/implicit APIs that are becoming hard to support for whatever reason.
Definitely annoying, but almost every OS does that at some point.
philistine
There is a technical reason that greatly benefits the user. The ability to guarantee the OS is unchanged, and to restore to factory defaults like on an iPhone are great benefits.
Regulations on our OSes means we end up with Microsoft refusing to limit access to the kernel not to displease the EU, which led to the Crowdstrike outage.
talldayo
> Apple turning our devices into jail cells.
> These tech titans need to be regulated.
You say this as though anyone buying a Macbook in the past decade reserves the right to be surprised. New Trump administration isn't going to budge on this - he's actually rather upset at the EU for how they've been treating his good friend Tim Apple. Chances are, he likes this lockdown and wants Americans to accept it.
If you're an American owner of Apple hardware, you've involuntarily signed yourself up for the Apple Isolationist program. There is no government to save you, and no god Apple will answer to.
null
j45
I wonder if Carbon Copy Cloner is affected.
Having bootable backups was the only reason I ever moved to a Mac.
This means, a backup of my computer created using something like Carbon Copy Cloner, or SuperDuper backup when plugged into any other Mac, and it would boot as my computer. Also known as Target Disk Mode booting off this backup.
Indispensible when or if my laptop was in for repair with Apple.
cosmotic
TimeMachine is a pretty good second option. It's not bootable itself, but the recovery console on any mac can ingest a time machine backup and get you back up and running quite quickly. The benefit here is that it's free, trivial to setup, and very easy to keep running; Given an empty disk, plug it in, click one button, done.
sam1r
Is this something intentional that Apple has publicly stated in some realm?
AFAIK, in that case, maybe it's just a bug that they're planning to fix...
brigade
Which part? The inability for 3rd parties to create bootable images instead of using Apple-signed tools? Because that was 4 years ago and is kind of a fundamental requirement for the chain of trust needed for signed system volume security introduced back then.
Or are you arguing that this blog post is wrong in asserting the OS release this week introduced a bug in those tools?
lxgr
"Resource busy", as opposed to "this tool is no longer supported", almost certainly is a bug, and I don't read the blog post as implying otherwise.
But that doesn't mean it's not reckless of Apple to introduce a load-bearing component that wasn't necessary before and then not properly regression test it across OS updates.
null
sam1r
[flagged]
owlbite
Do we know if this was a bug in the beta releases of 15.2, or did it manifest only in the final version?
incompatible
Maybe boot a Linux USB drive and use dd to copy the drive? I assume this is too easy, but I'm curious about where it fails.
nine_k
Maybe if the target device is the same part number (I assume an m.2 NVMe), that would work. IDK if it works with other drives, e.g. different capacity, let alone using a USB-attached drive. I don't know what bits, beyond the image proper, belong to the trusted signed set.
jamestnz
The article's author seems to be part of the team behind the Mac disk-cloning/backup utility, SuperDuper.
https://www.shirt-pocket.com/SuperDuper/SuperDuperDescriptio...
dtgriscom
shirt-pocket.com and shirtpocket.com lead to the same company's website.
sam1r
[flagged]
griomnib
Apple’s built-in backup solution is called Time Machine. It was dogshit when it launched a decade ago, never got more reliable despite many OS releases, and is still largely dogshit.
The author of the blog makes an application that is very good at making backups on macOS and now their app is broken due to skullduggery by Apple.
So the issue is threefold: a) Apple further turning MascOS into iPhone, b) this harms competition, and c) users ultimately suffer because Apple has no incentive to get better.
lxgr
Time Machine is really quite good, all things considered.
I’d be very happy if Apple were to bring it to iOS, but obviously they’ll never cannibalise their iCloud storage subscription business.
RandomThoughts3
> Time Machine is really quite good, all things considered.
This comment page is full of examples of very real issue with Time Machine which will bite you at some point if you use it. It’s not quite good. It’s bug riddled and Apple refuses to actually do the work to fix it because they would rather you buy iCloud.
threeseed
Or it's the same thing that has been happening for 15 years.
People install .0, .1 or .2 release. Complain about bugs. Bugs get fixed. Repeat.
nrabulinski
Some might think this is what the beta is for but I guess not. Let’s excuse the multi trillion dollar company for releasing broken software, each release being more broken than the previous one
randyrand
It's gotten so bad I normally wait until 0.7 (final release).
null
submeta
This is bad. - Just recently I broke my system badly. So I decided to erase my system and re-setup from time machine. After several unsuccessful attemts I realized that my Time Machine backup (1.45 tb) exceeded my ssd capacity (1 tb). I did research, and learned not to prune my Time Machine backups. As that may corrupt it. So after several days and failed attempts to restore from time machine and after some research and finding out that indeed it was still possible to boot from external ssd, I decided to buy a 2 TB ssd, restore to that ssd, boot from it, clean up excessive data, and migrate from that ssd to my Macbook. It took me three days to solve it. As each failed attempt and investigation took hours to complete.
In the meantime I called Apple support to get help. I said right away that I am an IT professional who worked as sys admin in the past and that I would like to talk to experts. And they forwarded me to „experts“. The first said: „Forget about full restore, won’t work. Create a fresh install and manually (!) copy individual files from time machine to your mac.“ Second person told me to buy a new Mac with 2 tb ssd and restore to that. I asked her if it was possible to restore to an external ssd via Carbon Copy Cloner? As I did in the past half a dozen times. She told me she definitely does not recommend that path as she cannot recommend third party apps (?!?).
I did not try that option immediately as I heared a few years ago that latest MacOSes do not support booting from external ssds. And so I didn’t think of this option. But some research and I found out that indeed it is still possible, but you have to go some extra steps.
So if this wouldn’t have been possible I would have had spent two weeks to restore my machine. Or bought another machine with 2 tb just to restore from backup.
PS: I spent almost 5k Euros for this maxed MacBook Pro with 64 gb. Plus Apple Care. I didn’t want to buy another Mac just to restore from backups.
PPS: All of this was shortly before a very important presentation. So I was stuck with my work laptop (windows machine), and I am 90% less productive with it as it lacks my tools. Yeah, shouldn’t have screwed my main machine just before a super important milestone. Lessons learned.
redmajor12
Sounds like the lesson learned here from reading your travail is not to invest in an ecosystem that makes it difficult to do a standard operation.
submeta
Maybe. But what are the options? Windows? Not really. Linux/Debian/Ubuntu is great, in theory, but it lacks tools: Acorn, Keyboard Maestro, OnniGraffle, Alfred App, MS Office, MS Teams, and a dozen more. Plus Apple silicon. I test LLMs locally.
deaddodo
This isn't me trying to convince you to use Linux, but the listed reasons (other than LLM testing) aren't real deterrents (and there are plenty that exist for many people, no use pretending not):
> Acorn
GIMP (or Glimpse, if you want a more modern UI) or Krita can definitely do pretty much anything Acorn can.
> Keyboard Maestro
GNOME and KDE have been able to do this out of the box from pretty much the beginning. The OSes are still mostly terminal-first (one of the big complaints, actually), and that translates into the DEs and Applications. A keyboard automation is just a sequence of commands.
This is probably one of the few areas where Linux almost definitely beats macOS or Windows.
> OnniGraffle
There's a large swathe of diagramming tools in Linux.
> Alfred App
Yep, both KDE and Gnome are able to handle this task as well as Alfred. Like automation, this is probably an area Linux will be able to shine above macOS.
> MS Office
LibreOffice would be the common alternative.
> MS Teams
They used to have an official client. They now recommend you create a PWA, and there are some unofficial clients that do pretty much that:
https://github.com/IsmaelMartinez/teams-for-linux
This seems to be the route they'll be going all around, similar to slack (web + an electron app).
> I test LLMs locally.
LLMs run fine on Linux, but you will be limited to about 16GB on the VRAM side. Though, you could technically use Asahi + Apple Silicon as the support matured if you want.
Most of these are open source applications, with cludgy UIs/warts and all; and aren't really designed by teams with UX masters, so operate oddly and require relearning. But if you were interested in making the move, they're options.
Jnr
And here I am running Linux on M1 Macbook. Graphical interface is superior, native docker support is superior, development experience is superior, backups for sure are superior than Time Machine. For work purposes online office on the web is sufficient. It is not for everyone (like photographers), but for software developers it works very nicely.
everdrive
Platforms that lack MS Teams are doing the user a favor.
null
LeoPanthera
Are we reading different comments? Because the only reason he had problems is because he didn't do anything standard. He futzed with his backups instead of letting the OS take care of it, and that's the only reason he had any trouble.
If you let Time Machine doing it's thing, restoring from a backup is fast and painless.
(Though it's been years since I had to restore a Mac for any reason. It makes me wonder what he was doing.)
eviks
The reason is the opposite - he was doing the standard thing of using the substandard Time Machine for backups, which has been poorly engineered not to allow restoring without pre-pruning
> If you let Time Machine doing it's thing
Then you can corrupt your whole backup, and then fully restoring becomes impossible instead of long and painless, but possible
> It makes me wonder what he was doing
He was doing the restore recently, not many years ago
hirako2000
Mentioned was a pretty fundamental issue with time machine, to this day. In that it doesn't (de)allocate older backed up space to make for up space for newer back ups. This or some variations of that.
The bug may not always manifest itself I suppose which makes it worse emotionally.
I'm there setting on a 1tb backup disk dedicated to backup a 500GB root HDD, it keeps saying there isn't enough space available after 1h sorting out what needs copied over. Deleted a series a snapshot but it won't tell what doing this is saving me. I can only resort to wipe the entire backup and backup again. Now wondering, what if I deleted some documents a while back which I thought would have a snap. Do I care more about getting a fresh backup or unweilded snapshots that may or may not contain something I don't know I've lost.
submeta
I had only 600-700 gb of data on my Mac. Installed OneDrive, did not know that I had configured my NAS to do 800gb of cloud backups to OneDrive. And Time Machine downloaded that data into its backup. Although I had configured OneDrive not to download that folder to my Mac. So time Machine screwed up in the first place.
addaon
> restoring from a backup is fast and painless.
Had to restore recently. Was painless, but most definitely not fast. Took 24 - 36 hours to restore a 1 TB drive with < 400 GB in use after restore.
thefz
I don't think that making a backup unrecoverable from is "doing its thing". I would expect a 1:1 copy of a drive to be less or exactly the drive size.
hmottestad
Sounds a bit too simplistic. Apple is about the only company that allows you to run any decently sized LLMs on a laptop. They also have all day battery life, amazing single-threaded performance and great multicore performance. And they didn’t stop there, they also threw in a truly fantastic display and speakers that are so far ahead of any competitors that I wonder what kind of magic they have that no other laptop brand is able to put better speakers in their laptops.
miki123211
> I wonder what kind of magic they have that no other laptop brand is able to put better speakers in their laptops.
The answer is integration.
With Windows laptops, you have one company doing the sound card, one company doing the speakers and one company doing the enclosure. What you actually want is your sound card's equalizer curve being perfectly tuned to your speakers' frequency response, taking into account how their positioning in your specific laptop enclosure affects the sound. If your sound card maker doesn't know what laptop the card will go into, they just straight up can't do this.
There's also the fact that sound cards have to be conservative about how much power they output, to avoid blowing up the speakers. Apple knows the exact tolerances of the ones in their laptops. They even have special temperature sensors in them, so that they can increase the power even more, and go back to a safer level in software if the temperature ever crosses a safety threshold.
talldayo
> Apple is about the only company that allows you to run any decently sized LLMs on a laptop
Comments like these make me wonder if people even use different computers anymore or if they just say stuff and hope that it's right.
foderking
idk about the LLM part, but the rest of this is not true. there's multiple laptops that compete or even beat MacBooks in display, battery life, performance etc. and the MacBook displays have really slow response times
eek2121
You act like other ecosystems are better. They aren’t.
kstenerud
I've really been noticing how Apple software quality has been on a slow decline since Snow Leopard. I look at some of their older source code and it's a joy to read!
Nowadays, my daily travails with restarting Xcode multiple times a day to work around bugs (package blahblah is not available) have really worn thin (I mean, Xcode has always had problems, but not THIS bad). Add to that the fact that the "system data" on my mbp now takes up 80% of the space on my SSD (800GB of system data! Even after manually deleting caches and derived data)...
It's like they don't even care about code craftsmanship anymore. And yet their culture of not putting in useful debug messages (because "it just works") persists.
My latest and greatest headache? Some parts of AppKit now directly call [NSApplication _crashOnException:] regardless of the "NSApplicationCrashOnExceptions" setting, and WITHOUT even calling [NSApplication reportException:]. So now you lose the exception entirely and good luck figuring out what caused the crash. Ugh...
tonyedgecombe
I don't use Xcode so maybe it is an exception but in general I would say the opposite. For me it has been getting better over time.
People talk about Snow Leopard being stable but it was riddled with bugs, just take a look at the release notes for all the updates it received over the next year.
T4iga
I have had a similar experience after i shared my MacBook with my girlfriend for a while. Turned out even after uninstalling her cloud file sharing software thing, there were still over 100GB of cached files left on disk. MacOS didn't make the obvious identify or find in the storage overview.
I ended up finding it through a disk space visualizer that showed a large folder (the stolen 100GB) in some cache directory. I can highly recommend trying that out. MacOS' inbuilt tools are in my experience inadequate to find what is stealing your disk space (on top of applications being unable to clean up after themselves).
wiredfool
The system data apparently contains the Time Machine backups that haven’t been flushed to your external backup, including folders that are set to be ignored.
I discovered this while trying to restore a docker vm image that was maybe ignored, while not having enough space on the drive to restore it back, because deleted versions still take up space in the system data, even when the trash is emptied.
raverbashing
Yeah
Let me guess, the best engineers are working on iPad/iPhone apps today and MacOS is relegated to code fixes and people building for the "common user" that doesn't know what a drive is
rsync
"Create a fresh install and manually (!) copy individual files from time machine to your mac.“"
This is, and always has been, the only sane answer.
If you value your time, energy and sanity you do not upgrade your OS - you wipe it clean and install from scratch. It is as true today with OSX as it was going from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95.
hmottestad
When I last restored from Time Machine it allowed me to select which folders I wanted to restore. Then I could just restore the most important bits and leave anything big behind on the backup drive to restore manually later.
submeta
I only was offered to select top level folders. Nothing below them.
hmottestad
Did you try to reinstall the mac and use migration assistant to restore from the Time Machine backup?
prmoustache
I don't know time machine, but why would a full restore take more space than the original drive? Wouldn't a full time machine restore by default restore the last state of the system being backed up (and not full history) by default like any half decent backup solution?
submeta
I had only 600-700 gb of data on my Mac. Installed OneDrive, did not know that I had configured my NAS to do 800gb of cloud backups to OneDrive. And Time Machine downloaded that data into its backup. Although I had configured OneDrive not to download that folder to my Mac. So time Machine screwed up in the first place.
super_mario
How did you end up with TM backup larger than original source? Sure, total storage consumed on TM drive can be larger than source, but that is because older versions of files are stored as well. But restoring most recent versions of files should be equal to source in size.
submeta
I had only 600-700 gb of data on my Mac. Installed OneDrive, did not know that I had configured my NAS to do 800gb of cloud backups to OneDrive. And Time Machine downloaded that data into its backup. Although I had configured OneDrive not to download that folder to my Mac. So time Machine screwed up in the first place.
super_mario
Ah, ok, that's a nasty bug/scenario. I long for the good old days one could just rsync the internal drive and bless it and you have a bootable clone, or make compressed disk image. Those were the days.
nunez
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I just want to say that it is extremely refreshing to see a good ol' fashioned Linux vs Win vs Mac debate in 2024. The Internet isn't dead.
I lied; I actually do. GIMP sucks!
throwaway48476
You chose the walled garden.
nbzso
A side rant with some useful information:
I had a nightmare week with an office Mac Mini, 2018 . When the employee tried to update to Sequoia, he faced the error-try again conundrum. So logically, I introduced the restore option.
Oh boy, what a shitshow. So after faced by 8 hours restore process option, I proceeded to USB installation. Due to T2 restriction, enabling the boot process in restore utility menu is mandatory.
Surprisingly, this cannot be done without working installation and admin user. So installing the OS which was the default for the computer and booting again was the next step.
Long story short, the Mini stopped working in the middle of the installation. No chime sound. No light. We decided that it is dead for good.
And then I got mad. Perfectly working computer bricked by slow and buggy restore process. 8 hours? Did Apple have no money to afford more server speed from Akamai? Or deliberately f&cks up the process, users to go and buy the new stuff? HMM.
Solution:
So I proceeded to DFU mode with non-recommended cable USB2 to USB-C (from my Logitech mouse, with data capabilities.) You power up the mini by holding the startup button and push the power cable in. USB-C must be connected to the first thunderbolt port after the HDMI input. Then magically you have a connection in your host mac Finder and proceed to restore the T2 firmware. Install as usual from the USB stick and revive the Mini.
P.S. Found bits and pieces to come up with this solution from hardware repair forums. If you call your Apple "support" you know the procedure. Come to the store and buy more.
nikisweeting
Article is pretty unclear, "copying" can mean many things to many different people:
cp -r / /Volumes/Clone # this never worked
# what about rsync, does this still work?
rsync --acls --archive --hard-links --one-file-system --sparse --xattrs / /Volumes/CLONE
sudo bless -folder /Volumes/CLONE/System/Library/CoreServices
# what about block-level copying, does this still work?
sudo dd if=/dev/rdisk2 of=/dev/rdisk4 bs=1m conv=notruncmrpippy
It’s documented in their older blog posts, I believe they use the ‘asr’ utility to copy the OS install. The many partitions that make up a macOS install means that cp or rsync isn’t enough. dd would do it, but at great cost in flexibility (can’t back up to a smaller disk, or select files) and speed
noisy_boy
> dd would do it, but at great cost in flexibility (can’t back up to a smaller disk, or select files) and speed
I mean if we are talking about copying the whole OS or disk, that is a very macro operation. The fine-tuning can be done at the target location after copy like removing unwanted files/resizing partitions etc. No idea how slow would dd be but I thought you could specify larger blocksize for better performance (hoping someone more knowledgeable on dd can add their views).
therein
It also kernel panics if you power down external monitor but keep HDMI connected or have an HDMI output device that is powered off.
It was a great out-of-the-box experience for my new MacBook Pro.
unsnap_biceps
FWIW, I don't have the same behavior. I have a large tv hooked up to my caldigit TS3+ that is turned on and off when I want to watch a movie and I just tested it and it continues to work just fine.
teaearlgraycold
From the other commenter it sounds like it’s an issue with the built in hdmi port on the pro laptops.
therein
Here is part of the backtrace in case it brings it to the attention of someone: https://imgur.com/ycyVIzF
I already sent it to Apple but who knows when they'll maybe look at it. Panic at IOPortDPDelegate.cpp:256.
radicality
It obviously shouldn’t panic, but have you looked at the dumps for what could be the cause? Or perhaps try a different cable and/or different hdmi device? It’s still a bug, but perhaps it’s a non-spec-compliant hdmi cable or device?
randyrand
Being 'upgraded' to macOS 15 is the worst part of buying a new macbook pro.
I counted 12 bugs during the first hour of use.
Makes we want to start a computer company.
tonyedgecombe
Interfacing with external monitors (or at least 3rd party ones) seems to be a weak point for Apple.
sleepybrett
I do not have this problem, I do this every night.
germandiago
My bext comouter will not be a Mac. Works nice but the lock-in is crazy all the time.
ilrwbwrkhv
Yup both Mac and Windows have a better replacement now: Linux. Thanks to all the hardware vendors and Valve, Linux has become a better desktop alternative for sure.
noisy_boy
And Linux works pretty nicely with Android too - not hand-in-glove cohesion like Apple can provide for obvious reasons, but practically all vendors provide tools to switch pretty easily during the device setup stage and Syncthing provides amazing flexibility in managing data between Android and Linux devices on an ongoing basis.
pjmlp
The day Microsoft decides Proton is a nuisance that gaming alternative is gone, as Valve decided fostering a GNU/Linux game ecosystem wasn't worth it.
SXX
Microsoft has joined Open Invention Network a while ago and AFAIK (though I can be wrong) Valve is also member of OIN. They can't really attack anyone using their patents now.
And Valve is not exactly a small startup that's possible to sue into debt. Even though they're much smaller by headcount they certainly do have money and desire to fight any kind of legal battles. And with amount of goodwill Valve has from it's customer base anyone attacking them will end up with huge PR disaster.
Also even if above wasn't true I doubt MS want any more antitrust scrutiny.
ilrwbwrkhv
I'm not quite sure what you are saying here but Valve can beat Microsoft at almost any game.
keyle
No one really complained with 15.1 and macOS completely blocking software that is "untrusted".
You know the "move to bin" popup, which you used to unblock in the past by cmd+clicking the binary, or later via the settings menu for privacy & security (insane in its own right!)
Since 15.1, you're done and dusted. Unsigned/untrusted binaries simply will not run on macOS, regardless of how much you trust them to be. Thanks Apple.
That is a big deal, a really big deal... For the music industry, many industries and consumer grade software, such as game installers from GOG, etc. They simply don't open anymore once you install them fresh.
I raged for about 15 mins at these idiots at Apple for making such a breaking change to user space.
This is clearly not to protect the user as much as it is closing the walled garden onto users. Disgusting, silent move, in a minor release.
Thankfully I found the solution in
xattr -d com.apple.quarantine ~/binary
A sad state of affairs. macOS is a beautiful OS with its problems but very workable. Apple is slowly picking at it and worsening it, mostly, throughout the years. Long live Snow Leopard!
sumuyuda
I haven’t updated to 15, but I thought they just removed the ability to run unsigned software by right clicking and selecting open. My understanding was you had to manually approve it in the system settings via Gatekeeper?
Apple is 100% slowly boiling the frog in respect to locking down macOS to be like iOS. I already switched to Linux on my personal machines. I saw the writing on the wall when notarization was announced in 2017.
rgovostes
For additional context, the dialog reads:
> "App" Not Opened <br> Apple could not verify "App" is free of malware that may harm your Mac or compromise your privacy. [ Done ]
The upper right of the dialog has a ( ? ) button that opens https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/apple-cant-check-ap... which says:
> However, if you choose, you can still open an app that isn’t allowed to open by manually overriding Privacy & Security settings.
There's a link to the settings, under which you have to scroll down and find a second copy of the above message and then click "Open Anyway", with then gives you a third warning:
> Open "App"? <br> Apple is not able to verify that it is free from malware that could harm your Mac or compromise your privacy. Don’t open this unless you are certain it is from a trustworthy source. [ Done ] [ Open Anyway ]
Continuing on requires authentication, and the prompt offers a fourth warning: "You are attempting to open an app that may harm your Mac or compromise your privacy."
According to https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/ you do need a full $99 Apple Developer Program membership to have apps notarized.
argsnd
You can either switch off Gatekeeper or go into the system settings to click open anyway. Yes, it’s annoying though.
keyle
No, this is what I'm saying, 15.1 removed the system settings to "open anyway". It's gone.
commandersaki
I had to find an application to test, so I downloaded the kitty terminal emulator for macOS which was just an executable.
I tried to execute it from the shell ./kitten-darwin-arm64 and it gave me an option to cancel or move to bin. I went to system settings -> privacy & security -> and told it to allow kitten-darwin-arm64. I then rerun ./kitten-darwin-arm64 and it now had the option to "Open Anyway".
So in 15.2 it is still possible to execute software by unidentified developers.
iamshs
Tangential:
I updated my iPhone 15 from 17 to 18.1 and got Safari crashes. Lost handoff capability from iPhone to MacBook, works perfectly the other way. Both of these problems are incredibly frustrating.
oarfish
The funniest bit about upgrading to Sequoia for me was that running programs in Apple's debugger breaks establishing local network connections.
i.e. a device directly connected via ethernet can be communicated with when running the binary normally, but cannot under lldb. Meanwhile no prompts about allowing network connections etc. are presented.
That wasted at least half a day until I realized I could just use the upstream LLVM debugger.
haileys
> This sucks. We think it sucks. You think it sucks. But we can't fix it: Apple has to do so.
And this is why I gave up on macOS several years ago now and moved to Linux.
It's not about which OS is better or worse. All software has bugs. It's about the empowerment to _do something_ about the inevitable bugs, rather than wait and hope that a fix comes down from above.
dymk
In theory I can make bluetooth and wifi and deep-sleep work with Linux, but am I actually able to fix it? No, and not for a lack of trying. If we're talking about practical ability to fix what goes wrong with my daily driver, then macOS still wins hands down.
bsder
As opposed to all the people who can't make a USB keyboard work with MacOS and can't do a damn thing about it.
The thread about it generally reaches 40+ pages before Apple erases it only for it to come back. Apple has known about it for half a decade. I can pinpoint the OS release when they broke it. Sure, it doesn't seem to affect everybody, but the people it does affect have no recourse.
With MacOS, as long as everything works, everything works. But, when it doesn't, you cannot do a damn thing about it.
Linux very, very rarely leaves that kind of catastrophic bug for 5+ years.
jabwd
idk my xbox controller works on macOS, doesn't on Linux. Same bluetooth chipset (Magic of multiple drives and hackintoshing some crap). Idk what USB thing you're talking about but you surely seem to be capable of providing some actual useful info for people like me who would actually like to understand what you're talking about?
icedchai
When did it break, and why does it still work for me? (Mac Studio, M1 Max, macOS 15.2)
akvadrako
Deep sleep doesn't work with Windows or Mac, and isn't needed on Linux either.
My past two laptops, ASUS and Lenovo, lasted days with modern standby. Not as great as Apple but good enough.
EasyMark
you can fix it by buying a linux compatible laptop/pc or building one with known compatibility.
avalys
It is impossible for a Linux-compatible PC to have a problem with Linux, because if a PC has a problem with Linux, it is obviously not Linux-compatible.
Therefore, if you ever have a problem with Linux on your PC, it is your fault for expecting Linux to work on your non-compatible PC, and you cannot blame the difficulty of fixing the problem on Linux.
dymk
Oh cool, all I have to do is buy new hardware when the software breaks during updates or when Mercury is in retrograde
wruza
This usually means you’re building/buying a 5yo “monster” that competes with your iphone. And even then it’s no guarantee.
leni536
All of those work. As for bluetooth, I can connect multiple bluetooth headphones and playback audio at the same time. This is a bit fiddly, but I wouldn't even know where to start on some other systems.
imiric
I was recently shocked to find out that you can't change the volume in macOS when the machine is connected to a TV over HDMI[1]. Volume control is entirely disabled, and you need to adjust it via the TV. Or use a 3rd-party program.
This is absolutely insane.
I'm sure Apple will claim to have a very good reason for this, but the concept of controlling volume on audio devices has existed since the dawn of computer audio. All other operating systems do this as expected.
This is my main issue with using Apple devices. You either accept their vision of how to use the device you paid for, or consider yourself lucky that a 3rd-party solution exists (and that Apple has allowed to exist), which you also usually need to pay for. Insanity.
[1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/lgfjax/is_it_possi...
jval43
Bluetooth on Windows is a nightmare too. Headphones, keyboards, mice etc might work initially, but at some point they don't connect anymore and it's almost impossible to fix. Mac is better in that regard, unpairing and repairing usually works. On Windows it's just broken.
It's why I only use hardware with fixed dongles (Jabra, Logitech, etc).
mistercheph
What hardware were you experiencing issues with wifi or bluetooth or sleep?
makeitdouble
> deep-sleep
Didn't Apple kill deep sleep/hibernation when transitioning to ARM ?
It was touted as "Always On Processor" to mimic the iOS and iPadOS management of CPU and never shut it down.
saagarjha
No, that does things like Hey Siri.
kelnos
And not just that: if an update breaks my Linux install, I can figure out what broke it and roll back to an older version. Rolling back updates on macOS or Windows is just... not really a thing, at least not without a full reinstall, assuming you even have installation media for older versions these days.
electroly
If you restart several times in succession after an update (e.g. if the machine is stuck in a boot loop), Windows automatically rolls back the update. If the machine boots but you still want to rollback manually, the option is available for a period of time after the update is installed in Settings under Windows Update > Advanced options > Recovery. It's true that once the period of time is up (something like 10 days), you can't rollback any more, but I think your statement about Windows is untrue enough to warrant a correction. Rollback of Windows OS updates is there and it works. I have relied on this functionality in actual real life practice.
bsder
It's actually really difficult to roll back a MacOS machine to an earlier OS even with a full reinstall.
You either have to make MacOS backup disks immediately upon opening the machine, or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas.
tonyedgecombe
>or you have to find MacOS installation disks from the dodgy high seas.
Mist[1] downloads them directly from Apple.
[1] https://github.com/ninxsoft/Mist or https://github.com/ninxsoft/mist-cli
jasomill
Not really difficult to reinstall every major Intel Mac OS release, at least, as they're all downloadable from Apple in one way or another:
1. You can reinstall "the version of macOS that came with your Mac or the closest version that’s still available" via Internet Recovery[1].
2. You can download installers for every major release back to High Sierra from Apple via the App Store[2] or directly from Apple's update servers using a tool like installinstallmacos[3].
3. You can download installers for Sierra, El Capitan, Yosemite, Mountain Lion, and Lion directly from the Apple support site[2].
3. You can download Snow Leopard and Leopard from the Apple developer site[4] (free registration required; paid membership possibly required).
Note that the downloads on the developer site are the 10.x.0 retail builds, which may not be compatible with all Macs that shipped with a later build.
In this case, assuming the version you need is no longer available via Internet Recovery, you'll probably need to install and patch on an older machine, then transfer the patched install to the target via disk swapping, imaging, or NetInstall, or to install and patch directly to the target machine's hard drive using Target Disk Mode (or else track down a copy of the model-specific restore DVDs that shipped with the target).
Downloads from the App Store and support site should always be the latest point release, so this should only be a problem if you want to install Snow Leopard or Leopard on a post-release machine.
Installing non-final point releases is admittedly problematic: you can download some but not all x.y.0 builds from the developer site, some but not all patches from the support site, and a few x.y.(z < latest) installers from Apple update servers, but AFAIK there's no way to get an arbitrary point release of any version unless you can find someone who has a copy saved.
Though I wouldn't even be a little surprised if older patch releases were still available, unadvertised, somewhere on some public Apple Web server, given that you can still download System 6.0.3 (released October 1990; last supported Mac was the Classic, discontinued September 1992) if you know the correct URLs[5].
[1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-...
[2] https://support.apple.com/en-us/102662
[3] https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts
[4] https://developer.apple.com/download/all/
[5] http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Soft...
n144q
You can. Most Linux users can't -- I say 90%, if not 99%. Most Linux users are just users, many of which don't know how to use tar or xargs without looking it up, very few have the technical knowledge and capability of figuring out "what broke it".
wruza
I had it for a while. Then systemd came and everything changed. Can’t just grep logs and won’t bother learning how to handle that “journal”. Some programs don’t write logs at all, they just crash with an indicator in a systray that something crashed (the most useful info in the world, /s). Linux was being made by hackers who know how to debug things, not anymore. Now it’s new kids raised on rainbow unicorn nonsense. I feel myself in linux like I’m in early windows now, so what’s the benefit?
akvadrako
Rollbacks on image based distros like Fedora Silverblue are as easy as selecting the old version on boot. Literally hitting down and enter.
Besides that, you never wait for updates to install.
com2kid
Windows automatically save a restore point before updates are installed and rolling back - assuming the machine isn't bricked - is really simple.
FredPret
Windows Update once borked my overnight ML job to install “critical updates; reboot required” on my desktop.
I bought a MacBook the next day and put Linux on that desktop. 100% happier.
tonyedgecombe
It's a shame as APDS does support snapshots and they appear to work well. Having said that I could foresee problems with rolling back the system partition but not the data.
whitehexagon
I'm part way down this path. I bought a 2nd-hand M1 that only runs Asahi Linux (mainly for OpenGL/Vulkan and being able to use the unified memory for local LLMs). Still trying to find replacement apps to fully transition away from my old mac.
Especially, I'd love to find a tool as great as SuperDuper for my backups. I've been running it for 16 years now, including some full restores along the way. Thanks to the devs for a dependable tool! Pretty sure I used it to migrate laptops, which I imagine is also something that would be more tricky with later macos versions.
Anyway, I hope apple fix this bug soon. If not, then I'll look forward to buying a linux license for SuperDuper one day.
apatheticonion
I'm waiting with bated breath for the day I can run Linux with full hardware acceleration on a MBP or laptop of equivalent quality.
Everywhere I look in the tech world there is so much potential for incredible products just out of reach because of bad software forced on us by anti-competitive practices.
Apple. You're the richest company on Earth. For the love of god, let me use my "pro" device to do professional work.
I am overseas right now and am quite literally typing this from an AMD mini PC with my MBP set up as a second monitor I interact with via a network based mouse/keyboard sharing application. It really hurts the promise of portability if I need to carry a second computer with me because my MBP is _nerfed by software_ to prevent me from using it for everything I do.
amir734jj
Maybe it's just me, but I've been so used to Linux for so many years that I have a really hard time using either Mac (helping relatives) or Windows (for work). I use a system76 laptop and a system76 PC. It's perfect.
commandersaki
What's the battery life of something like that under normal usage?
danielovichdk
As long as they don't take away the __MACOSX folder when I copy other things.
What is this about? I seem to be missing a lot of context.
> Apple broke the replicator.
What's the replicator?
> What this means is this: until Apple fixes the bug, you'll have to use "Backup - all files" with "Smart Update" to copy everything but the OS.
Use that where? Is that an option in some macOS tool?