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Ion engines could take us to the solar gravitational lens in less than 13 years

sxp

For those who don't want to watch a video to understand what a "solar gravitational lens" is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_gravitational_lens

schmookeeg

Thank you, from someone who never ever ever wants to watch a video to get a few paragraphs of content.

nielsbot

FTA:

“The paper defined an ideal power plan that can output 1 kW per kg of weight.

This is currently well outside the realm of possibility, with the best ion thruster power sources coming at something like 10 W per kg and even nuclear electric propulsion systems outputting 100 W per kg.”

perihelions

- "ideal power plant that can output 1 kW per kg of weight"

I wished I remember where I read about this engineering problem, because it's an entertaining one. The main constraint on your [kW/kg] past a certain point is heat dissipation—the mass of the radiators rejecting waste heat into the vacuum of space. Thermal radiation scales like [temperature^4] (a very fast-growing function), so that parameter's obvious—you have to scale your exhaust temperature as high as you can engineer. That's how you shrink the radiator size. And you still need to run a heat engine—you need a significant temperature gradient, on top of the already-high exhaust temperature, to get useful work out of it. That's the temperature output of your primary heat source. So, the high-level design solution is: you have an array of infrared radiators glowing red, and a nuclear fission reactor glowing orange. That's the way to get a high power/mass ratio in space.

Also, everything's built around pipes of molten metals of different species (optimized heat transport), and the heat engine is like a steam turbine that spins on boiling molten potassium metal. (I think?) They're really exciting-looking machines. I wish someone would build one!

kristianp

Is this where a Nuclear Thermal Rocket[1] is more efficient by mass as hydrogen running through the reactor might take some of the heat away, reducing the need for radiators? This is such a fun topic.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_thermal_rocket

wiml

Yes, and even chemical rockets make use of the exhaust as effectively coolant. But the problem is that then you have to carry enough mass to carry away heat. And suddenly your rocket is 99% expendable coolant and only 1% payload (or less).

Or to put it another way, nuclear-thermal rockets might have an Isp of 3000 or so, which is amazing compared to a chemical rocket which might have 1/10 of that ... but an ion engine can have an Isp of 30000-70000, which is what makes a 550-AU trip even remotely practical.

I don't have the math right now to estimate how hot a conventional combustion chamber would have to be to get ion-engine-like exhaust velocities through a rocket nozzle/bell, but I think the answer is probably "ridiculously hot".

JumpCrisscross

1 kW/kg is an ideal power plant. Does the paper define a minimally-viable one?

If we beef up the chemical stage, e.g. by launching on Starship and re-fuelling in LEO, can we make do with 100 or even 10 kW/kg?

(Also, to put 550 AU in perspective, Voyager 1 is 165 AU out [1]. At 38,000 mph Voyager 1 [2] travels about 3.6 AU/year [a]. Going straight out, it would reach the Solar gravitational lens in 2131 [b].

[1] https://science.nasa.gov/mission/voyager/where-are-voyager-1...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_unit

[a] (38026.77 x 24 x 365) / (9.2956 x 10^7)

[b] 2024 + (550 - 165) / a

perihelions

550 au in 13 years is a mean of 200 km/s—chemical rockets are nothing compared to that.

JumpCrisscross

And that is for a flyby.

We’re not getting to 550 AU with chemical rockets alone. Nuclear, ion and/or solar sails will be needed.

hinkley

NASA has designs for thermoacoustic power plants that are much denser than this, but I note that they seem to be conveniently ignoring the weight of the fuel tanks in those calculations. If the generator were for instance 2% of the weight of the system, that means it has to be 50x as powerful as the goal.

rurban

With this unrealistic ion thruster method they estimate 13 years, whilst the realistic solar sail Turyshev method, which is actually planned, needs 17 years. Just the payload is much less.

This is pure science fiction, with no real practical benefit.

altharaz

There is a very high quality video about how Solar Gravitational Lens could be used to map exoplanets, and full explanations about the images reconstruction and engineering challenges: https://youtu.be/NQFqDKRAROI

bluerooibos

I've been aware of gravitational lensing before but this is the first time I've heard of it being used to resolve exoplanets.

This is super exciting and needs to be made a higher priority than it is considering our only other way around this is to build gigantic telescopes far beyond our current capabilities.

gorgoiler

Idea: achieve massive power provision by transmitting energy from a base station to the spacecraft using space lightning.

Transmitting power is not a new idea: lasers are the go-to example for this. Powering the craft with solar energy is another theoretical way of doing it.

My idea on the other hand is different. Imagine spooling a long wire behind the space ship and just transmit electricity to it the same way you transmit power to your hoover. Except instead of sending power up a wire, send it up as bolts of lighting through the ionised gas trail your ship is trailing behind it.

kurthr

Unless you have two beams, it would have to AC. You'd have to keep the series capacitance low enough that a significant amount of power is conducted (which might kill it). Remember that free space impedance is 377ohms sqrt(mu0/eps0) so non-photonic power likes to become Lambertian radiation.

idontwantthis

I don’t think it leaves behind a trail of ionized gas. The positive and negative ions get recombined.

null

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sjducb

Another way to get a spacecraft to 550AU would be to use solar sails and ground based lasers.

You have a small spacecraft (USB memory stick sized). Do a sub-orbital launch to get it out of the atmosphere. Then deploy the solar sails and fire ground based lasers at the craft to accelerate it. IIRC the theoretical maximum acceleration gets a you to 550AU in a few months.

https://www.space.com/laser-propelled-spaceships-solar-syste...

trklausss

While you could get a _platform_ there in those months, “what’s the point of it”? You would like to get a _payload_ there able to do science as well, so a USB Stick sizes spacecraft may not be suitable (for now) for it.

I can however imagine a proper ion-thrusted satellite with enough Antenna gain to communicate from 550AU back with real science.

rbanffy

Spoiler: with a good-enough powerplant that's yet to be built.

melling

“Before this decade is out… “

When Kennedy committed us to go to the moon, the first American hadn’t even orbited the Earth.

Previous generations just used to get shit done.

bandyaboot

I could be wrong, but these two things don’t seem like they’re really that comparable. Apollo was certainly a monumental engineering achievement, but did it require that we 100X the state of the art efficiency of some critical tech?

JumpCrisscross

> Apollo was certainly a monumental engineering achievement, but did it require that we 100X the state of the art efficiency of some critical tech?

One order of magnitude in propulsion.

When Kennedy made his “We choose to go to the Moon” speech [1], our most powerful rocket was the Saturn I. Its H-1 engines thrusted at 200k lbf [2]. The Saturn V’s F-1s did 1.5mm lbf [3]. (The Saturn V, similarly, could lift an order of magnitude more mass to LEO than the Saturn I.)

It wouldn’t surprise me to find 100x increases in some material’s performance, et cetera.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_choose_to_go_to_the_Moon

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_H-1

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_F-1

macbr

The main reason the Apollo program wouldn't happen today is safety:

The first Apollo test (unfueled) had three astronauts die due to an electrical fire! At the time Apollo 10 launched the lunar module wasn't finished yet (they wouldn't have been able to get back from the moon because it was too heavy). Apollo 16 and 17 by chance missed the 1972 solar storm by months - if an astronaut had been outside the Earth's magnetic field during the storm they have received a potentially lethal dose of radiation. One reason why after Apollo 17 the rest of the flights were cancelled even though the rockets etc. were already ordered or even built and why it took until 1981 (apart from Apollo–Soyuz) to get humans into space again.

melling

The ion engine project is unmanned.

satvikpendem

Common philosophical fallacy: just because we are able to do things in one stage does not mean we can do things in the next.

Of course, I am an optimist, but one cannot relate historical circumstances in the same way. I will be glad if it does happen of course, but I do not expect it to be so based on past performance.

Gooblebrai

I'm genuinely curious. What's the formal name of this fallacy? Never heard of it.

Mistletoe

> fastaguy88 10 months ago | next [–]

>2.5% of the US GDP ($26 trillion in 2023) would be 600 billion. At its peak in 1967, the Apollo program budget was 3 billion, while the US GDP was about 850 billion. So 0.35 percent. US government spending in 1967 was about 112 billion, so closer to 2.5 percent of the federal budget, not the GDP. Converting to today’s 6,000 billion federal budget, about 150 billion today, or not quite 20% of the defense budget, the largest federal expenditure after Social Security (the defense budget is essentially tied with Medicare).

I’m not sure we want those sort of expenses anymore.

null

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throwaway19972

Previous generations also had it easy. Generally speaking technological advancement isn't blocked by motivation but by other concerns, namely funding.

Personally, I'd rather fix healthcare if we're going to spend political capital. https://youtu.be/goh2x_G0ct4 remains as relevant as ever

wongarsu

Because America was lagging behind the Soviet Union in space achievements, and the Soviet Union was parading their superior space program to promote Communism.

It's not a generational thing, it's that the Moon landing was a top priority Cold War effort to beat the Soviets and show that Capitalism is the best. This mission in the other hand would be neat but has limited political value. What money were are willing to spend on space will mostly be spent on having a permanent moon base before the Chinese.

null

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rbanffy

> and show that Capitalism is the best.

Or so it seemed.

> will mostly be spent on having a permanent moon base before the Chinese.

At least it could be launched from the Moon with a magnetic rail in addition to whatever extra propulsion it could carry onboard.

datavirtue

These days people spend most of their time whining and being negative. It's a disease that spreads fast. Eores.

metalman

read "failure is not an option"

SPOILER ALERT

lindburg just shows up unanounced at the cape ,security did not call ahead just escorted him up to the main deck everything stops,he hangs out for a bit,heads on his way and then they get back to work

there might not even be a photo,and so you have to trust that it happened,and in that is a large part of how shit got done,on trust

greesil

Simply slap together some antimatter and matter my friend, and all your problems are solved.

kadoban

Well, your problems no longer exist at least, whatever they were. That's _kind_ of like solving them.

AtlasBarfed

So fine, use 1960s general atomics tech and do a pulse nuclear drive.

77pt77

We'll have the technology in 10 years.

Just like 20 years ago.

tim333

I would have thought a direct fusion drive might be the way to go where you fuse something like helium-3 and deuterium and then just let it escape put the back to propel the rocket. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Fusion_Drive)

Admittedly it's hypothetical and no one's built one but it would be quite similar to the thing Helion is building which is theoretically supposed to make electricity this year. Although many are skeptical about that.

There's a photo here of an earlier Helion thing https://www.linkedin.com/posts/helion-energy_first-frc-in-ou...

syntaxing

If only we had some astrophage.

Treblemaker

I came here to say this. But also, for those who don't know. this is referring to "Project Hail Mary" by Andy Weir, author of "The Martian".

(Caution, many spoilers in the Wikipedia article) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hail_Mary

shireboy

Take us -to- it, or take us past it? It’s one thing to go zooming past a point and another thing to get halfway there then turn around and slow down and park there. A telescope would almost certainly want to park there.

eschaton

Do you honestly think this wouldn’t be taken into account? I’m sure even without reading the article this is exactly the sort of thing that will be accounted for in any serious proposal.

It’s not as if our species doesn’t have millennia of experience with sailing ships to compare to when evaluating how to manage navigating to a specific point using either a powered or sailing vessel, or decades of experience maneuvering spacecraft at high velocities with high precision using both thrusters and gravitational slingshots within the solar system.

m3kw9

Then you have to develop new comms that can travel that far with enough bandwith for photos. The lag could be a week or so. Or you do relays which is equally difficult in a different way

nullc

I think that's only a challenge at all because of how mass and power limited such a craft would be. The obvious solution is to use lasers.

It might even be possible to use a modulated retroreflector on the craft-- e.g. we fire a high power low divergence beam at the craft and it reflect it back. By modulating the reflection in can send back data with practically no power usage.

The angles accepted by the reflector could be fairly hard and so the difficult pointing problem would only exist on our end.

credit_guy

By far the most realistic engine for deep space travel is the Orion project [1]. You load a large rocket with lots of nukes, and detonate one at a time behind a pusher plate.

Of course, humanity being what it is, we'll never trust each other with the idea of building thousands of nuclear bombs with the "firm promise" that they'll only be used for space travel.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propuls...

jandrese

Nuclear explosions release mostly heat and radiation. Are you turning your pusher plate into high energy plasma with the explosion and using that to propel your spacecraft? My gut feeling is that your total ISP for this is disappointing compared to the amount of mass you add for the huge store of nuclear bombs.

credit_guy

> Are you turning your pusher plate into high energy plasma with the explosion and using that to propel your spacecraft?

I think the idea was for the bomb to vaporize a certain amount of propellant. According to wikipedia, the propellant was supposed to be tungsten, but I imagine that any substance would do. For example ice. The vaporized propellant hits the pusher plate and is reflected, resulting in an exhaust jet of very high velocity. The ISP was initially calculated to be between 4000 and 6000 seconds (so 10 times higher than the Space Shuttle), but later when they did the calculations with fusion bombs they concluded that an ISP of 75000 seconds is possible.

vinnymac

Not sure if this is the same idea as the one above, but the ones I’ve heard send the nukes up separately, so that the final launch craft is not impacted by the mass of the nukes. Instead as the craft passes by each nuke, they are detonated, and so it accelerates.

jandrese

This plan is somehow even more insane than the original one. Now you have to launch bombs into space many years before launching your craft, then somehow fly in absolute precision with them to pass close enough to get an even push but not so close as to collide.

bibanez

This famously appears in the plot of the Three Body Problem scifi series by Liu Cixin!

swasheck

didn’t work there, either

nullc

How much does scattering from dust between the planets hurt the contrast by making it hard to reject the sun's light?